Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

Started Feb 2, 2018 | Discussions
MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot
11
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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,120
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

No surprises there.

The Quattro look soft and the Merrill harsh.

I like the Quattro better. You can enhance local contrast if you want to.

EDIT:

Looking again I see that the Quattro is a bit too soft. Is it really sharp?

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/Roland
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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 14,669
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot
3

rick decker wrote:

Tonight:

Quattro Moon

Merrill Moon

Thanks for posting, Rick.

BTW, no contest,

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Ted

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Sigma DP2 Sigma DP2 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Sigma SD15 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 +15 more
FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 1,684
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot
1

xpatUSA wrote:

rick decker wrote:

Tonight:

Quattro Moon

Merrill Moon

Thanks for posting, Rick.

BTW, no contest,

I always thought that the Quattro has some drawbacks compared to the sensor in the Merrill models. Assuming that everything was set up in the same way, this comparison clearly shows that the Quattro has a disadvantage in S/N and acutance.

I own both models (SD1 and sdQH) and would really love to see a clear advantage for the Quattro. Sigh....

Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 12,344
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

Very interesting Rick. Thank you for posting these. Now it might be not just clouds anymore that the Merrills excel at, huh?

BTW, how many shots did you try before you got those two? . . . and can we play with the raw files?

I'm actually surprised what a difference there seems to be. I see that the Merrill shot was made at f5.6 and the Quattro shot was made at f8. Could that be the cause of the softness? Are these OOC jpegs or what?

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Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 12,344
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

FDecker wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

rick decker wrote:

Tonight:

Quattro Moon

Merrill Moon

Thanks for posting, Rick.

BTW, no contest,

I always thought that the Quattro has some drawbacks compared to the sensor in the Merrill models. Assuming that everything was set up in the same way, this comparison clearly shows that the Quattro has a disadvantage in S/N and acutance.

I own both models (SD1 and sdQH) and would really love to see a clear advantage for the Quattro. Sigh....

Feel like shooting some photos of the moon with each of your two cameras, using your longest high-quality lens and posting your results here?

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Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com

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dellaaa
dellaaa Contributing Member • Posts: 950
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

Interesting.  I have not seen this big a disparity between the two, as a matter of fact I have seen better results from the Q detail wise.

Somehow the Q image isn't all it could be i think.  It looks like it was either movement or out of focus in the enlargement.

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DavidWright2010 Senior Member • Posts: 1,736
Your Merrill image is better than mine
3

Good comparison, Rick. All the Quattro moon images I've seen are inferior to the best Merrill ones.

And concerning my effort here - there were some high clouds, and the Moon was only about 30 degrees above the horizon when I shot this.

That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

David

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Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma SD1 Merrill Pentax K-1 +1 more
jande9
jande9 Senior Member • Posts: 1,335
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot
1

dellaaa wrote:  ".... out of focus in the enlargement."

Whoa.  That takes me back!  Squinting through my Patterson focusing aid while reaching back over my head for the knob, getting that Tri-X grain nice and sharp.  Nice memories.

Jan

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OP MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot

I picked the best of the group and set sharpening to   -1.0.  It was difficult to decide about how much contrast to add.  Probably especially subjective in this type of shot.

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OP MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
For Scott and Ted and All
2

I picked the best of several shots for each.  I had more issues with noise on the Q than the M.  The had NR off and Detail 0 (left).  Some contrast work.  I can make RAW available

http://www.lightreflection.com
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http://www.pbase.com/rickdecker

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OP MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
Old Merrill 750mm shot
4

I used the older 500 f4.5....Here is an old Merrill from years ago:

Sharpened and upsized quite a bit and 1.4 tc:

500 4.5 + 1.4  tc

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DavidWright2010 Senior Member • Posts: 1,736
My result at roughly the same phase angle

rick decker wrote:

I used the older 500 f4.5....Here is an old Merrill from years ago:

Sharpened and upsized quite a bit and 1.4 tc:

500 4.5 + 1.4 tc

Heavily processed (600 mm):

David

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TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 7,980
Re: For Scott and Ted and All

rick decker wrote:

I can make RAW available

Yes please.

Note that robbing the Quattro of a stop of light is always going to be unfair. Where have I seen thatdone before?

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OP MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
Re: My result at roughly the same phase angle

1st one is noticeably (and excellent) sharper than 2nd.  I find a lot of contrast work necessary where I am.  Probably true for you also?

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 14,669
Re: For Scott and Ted and All
1

TN Args wrote:

rick decker wrote:

I can make RAW available

Yes please.

Note that robbing the Quattro of a stop of light is always going to be unfair. Where have I seen thatdone before?

LOL.

As I recall in those halcyon early Quattro days, wasn't Sigma talking about an extra stop of light compared with Merrill?

So maybe Rick was trying for "equivalent" shots? 

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Ted

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OP MOD rick decker Forum Pro • Posts: 15,892
Re: For Scott and Ted and All
3

Args:  Please ask Quattro to forgive me.  However, unless I am mistaken which is possible, the Quattro showed and needed a half to a stop less light.  However in  the interests of "truth, justice and the American way", I will make the RAW files available.

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,120
Re: For Scott and Ted and All
3

xpatUSA wrote:

TN Args wrote:

rick decker wrote:

I can make RAW available

Yes please.

Note that robbing the Quattro of a stop of light is always going to be unfair. Where have I seen thatdone before?

LOL.

As I recall in those halcyon early Quattro days, wasn't Sigma talking about an extra stop of light compared with Merrill?

So maybe Rick was trying for "equivalent" shots?

Yes - I saw that also. But .... I never bothered to comment.

My take:

Both images have low resolution. Much lower than any of the sensors can deliver. This hints att it being bad seeing or the lens is not 100% sharp or maybe not focused. I did look at a higher resolution photo on the web. There are lots of detail missing in both pictures. Details that should have been there.

The exposure of the moon is too low. If you use the sunny F11 rule for the moon it will be medium gray. This is two stop less exposed. And, as the moon is quite low contrast, you can easily over expose two stops. So ... I would say exposing three or four more stops would be good. For might clip.

Looking around, you see the same amount of detail nearly everywhere, but the Quattro has lower acutance. In some places, the Quattro lacks detail. I think you can get the Quattro to look kind of like the Merrill with some sharpening. Except in the places lacking info.

One thought is that the moon is almost monochromatic. It is a well known trick to use the top layer for such images for Merrill. The Merrill top layer is VERY good. For some reason, it does not work as well for Quattro. The Quattro top layer is noisier.

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/Roland
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TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 7,980
Re: For Scott and Ted and All
4

rick decker wrote:

...."truth, justice and the American way"

since Trump, have those become 3 opposing things?

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richard stone Veteran Member • Posts: 3,031
Re: Quattro & Merrill Moon Shot
2

rick decker wrote:

Tonight:

Quattro Moon

Merrill Moon

I have read most of the posts in this thread and it seems to me the Q image needs some sharpening and more NR and higher contrast. But that might not fix what looks like some other problem with blurring and noise.

I do not think SPP NR is as good as it needs to be to deal with the sdQ in some situations. I am puzzled by this, because the dpQ0 doesn't seem to suffer from noise that same way. Just thinking about the sdQ and its sensor, in terms of concept, it ought to do better, and some part of SPP might be the problem. The Q sensor at High Resolution is really not very much like the full-on, three colors at each pixel concept of all the earlier sensors.

From my use of the sdQ my feeling is that the maximum smooth setting of SPP seems to eliminate the detail from the top layer. Without that detail there is not much to recommend High Resolution for any use. Better, I think, if we are going to stay with SPP, more in the middle with the smooth-crunchy settings, and the same goes for NR and slightly increased contrast. And some sharpening is necessary: I think -1.0 sharpening might be good if further work is going to be done in another program. But if we propose, as some argue, that the Q looks/works more like a Bayer sensor, then sharpening is not optional, it is required, and +.5 sharpening in SPP is not extreme.

Finally, there appears to be some interaction between these various settings in SPP, and changing one seems to have some influence on the others. SPP as a "post" processing program seems to be adequate for fast work, in simple cases, and the results can be good, but the best results require minimal work in SPP to convert to a .tif file, and then some work in RT or another similar program.

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