G85/80's Electronic Front Curtain takes 10-bit RAW?

As far as I know, the fully electronic shutter produces 10-bit RAW

But does the same thing also happen with Electronic Front Curtain shutter?

I was looking at the studio sample, and it seems like images taken with the Electronic Front Curtain shutter are ever so slightly worse than those produced by mechanical shutter

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

They went back to 10-bit for the non-flagship models. I think the only Panasonic bodies that have 12-bit raw with electronic shutter are GX8, the newer GH-series and G9.

The question about electronic first curtain is interesting, I have thought that 10-bit only considers full electronic shutter. That being said, I don't see any difference in the image OP posted. If the difference is there, it should be clearly seen in the DPreview ISO invariance tests.

EDIT:

Here is the test for G-85. I don't see drastic differences.

Here is the test for G7 full electronic shutter. The first image is clearly worse than the others. The standard shutter lifted by 3 stops is also worse than the one taken at ISO 1600.

PhotoJoseph explanation.....

https://youtu.be/IfH07v5Tpwc

jrsforums wrote:

PhotoJoseph explanation.....

https://youtu.be/IfH07v5Tpwc

The problem with this guy is that he does not what he is talking about.

Angrymagpie wrote:

As far as I know, the fully electronic shutter produces 10-bit RAW

But does the same thing also happen with Electronic Front Curtain shutter?

I was looking at the studio sample, and it seems like images taken with the Electronic Front Curtain shutter are ever so slightly worse than those produced by mechanical shutter

I don't believe this is true. It appears the e-shutter uses 10-bit raws, but the EFC still uses 12-bit. If you compare at ISO 200 +3EV it becomes quite obvious that the EFC and Standard is very similar, while the e-shutter is completely different.

Link:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr144_0=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_1=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_2=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_3=panasonic_dmcg85&attr146_0=200_3&attr146_1=200_3&attr146_2=200_3&attr146_3=200_3&attr177_0=off&attr177_1=on&attr177_2=efc&attr177_3=off&normalization=full&widget=422&x=0.156658933&y=0.5216909

According to Iliah Borg it is 12-bit: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58504384

Look at the Raw histograms, and where missing codes start occurring in the dark areas.

Chris Noble wrote:

Look at the Raw histograms, and where missing codes start occurring in the dark areas.

I just checked the DPR Raw files on RawDigger.

JakeJY wrote:

Angrymagpie wrote:

As far as I know, the fully electronic shutter produces 10-bit RAW

But does the same thing also happen with Electronic Front Curtain shutter?

I was looking at the studio sample, and it seems like images taken with the Electronic Front Curtain shutter are ever so slightly worse than those produced by mechanical shutter

I don't believe this is true. It appears the e-shutter uses 10-bit raws, but the EFC still uses 12-bit. If you compare at ISO 200 +3EV it becomes quite obvious that the EFC and Standard is very similar, while the e-shutter is completely different.

Link:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr144_0=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_1=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_2=panasonic_dmcg85&attr144_3=panasonic_dmcg85&attr146_0=200_3&attr146_1=200_3&attr146_2=200_3&attr146_3=200_3&attr177_0=off&attr177_1=on&attr177_2=efc&attr177_3=off&normalization=full&widget=422&x=0.156658933&y=0.5216909

Agreed. And I have lots of experience in real life with 10 vs 12 bit shutters (GM1/5 GH3 GX7).

Thing is also (to the OP) I don't see the EFC as noisier but equal . The 10 bit shutter is easily recognised by it's green cast in darker areas. If the EFC is noisier (but Idon't see it) it is because the sensor is reset to zero (EFC) in a different way the normal shutter.

If I look again I find the normal shutter a tad noisier.....

But I am 100% sure this EFC is 12 bit!

Oh and the 10 bit raws are not noisier, they are clipped and clipped noise is ugly and unnatural and un-fixable. But that being said, in the last 1000 shots I took with my gm1 this was an issue with maybe 3 shots (with very deep shadows that needed pushing). It was also pilot error, cause with the GM1 this can be prevented by going below 1/500 which I forgot with those shots.

Big Ga wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8

That is incorrect.

....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

Unfortunately, that is also incorrect.

It appears Chris Noble’s RAW analysis does not agree with your statement.

What facts support your statement?

jrsforums wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8

That is incorrect.

....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

Unfortunately, that is also incorrect.

It appears Chris Noble’s RAW analysis does not agree with your statement.

What facts support your statement?

The first to not give 12 bits raw with ES, were....GH4 and GM1/5. the GH3 and GX7 before that had 12 bits ( that's why I have them, but they have very/to much rolling shutter, but not for my use, more then 10bits 16mp). GX8 has 12 bits but GX80/5 has 10 as has the G80. Can't remember the G7. and not sure if the G6 had ES. The recent GF's have 10 bit too. GH5 and G9 have 12.

secretworld wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8

That is incorrect.

....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

Unfortunately, that is also incorrect.

It appears Chris Noble’s RAW analysis does not agree with your statement.

What facts support your statement?

The first to not give 12 bits raw with ES, were....GH4 and GM1/5. the GH3 and GX7 before that had 12 bits ( that's why I have them, but they have very/to much rolling shutter, but not for my use, more then 10bits 16mp). GX8 has 12 bits but GX80/5 has 10 as has the G80. Can't remember the G7. and not sure if the G6 had ES. The recent GF's have 10 bit too. GH5 and G9 have 12.

What is the source of your info on G85/gx85?

jrsforums wrote:

secretworld wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8

That is incorrect.

....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

Unfortunately, that is also incorrect.

It appears Chris Noble’s RAW analysis does not agree with your statement.

What facts support your statement?

The first to not give 12 bits raw with ES, were....GH4 and GM1/5. the GH3 and GX7 before that had 12 bits ( that's why I have them, but they have very/to much rolling shutter, but not for my use, more then 10bits 16mp). GX8 has 12 bits but GX80/5 has 10 as has the G80. Can't remember the G7. and not sure if the G6 had ES. The recent GF's have 10 bit too. GH5 and G9 have 12.

What is the source of your info on G85/gx85?

It's pretty much commonly agreed the GX85 has 10-bit E-shutter. Reference earlier thread:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4006745

The G85 there is more mixed opinion, I think primarily because of the existence of EFC (which GX85 doesn't have). EFC appears to remain 12-bit. However, the DPreview review of the G85 did mention it had 10-bit e-shutter, while EFC had no such penalty (and results from the studio scene I link earlier seem to agree):

"Because the G7 is best used in E-shutter mode due to shutter shock, the G85 offers some serious advantages in terms of Raw noise levels over its predecessor as high ISOs. This is because there is a noise penalty when using the e-shutter; files are 10-bit as opposed to 12-bit (as is the case when using the mechanical shutter). It's worth noting that this noise penalty is not an issue when using the new EFC shutter mode on the G85."

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dmc-g85-g80/6

jrsforums wrote:

secretworld wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

I believe the first Panasonic camera to give 12bit RAW using electronic shutter was the GX8

That is incorrect.

....and all others, including the G85 have that ability.

Unfortunately, that is also incorrect.

It appears Chris Noble’s RAW analysis does not agree with your statement.

What facts support your statement?

The first to not give 12 bits raw with ES, were....GH4 and GM1/5. the GH3 and GX7 before that had 12 bits ( that's why I have them, but they have very/to much rolling shutter, but not for my use, more then 10bits 16mp). GX8 has 12 bits but GX80/5 has 10 as has the G80. Can't remember the G7. and not sure if the G6 had ES. The recent GF's have 10 bit too. GH5 and G9 have 12.

What is the source of your info on G85/gx85?

Just have a look at the dpr dynamic range comparisons. Set at +5 and compare Standard to e-shutter. If 12 bit, thare about equal. If 10 bit strange green noise cast.

EFC on the G85 is indeed 12 bit.