A7r3 video help - HLG HDR Mode

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three  different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

You may need to change a setting on the TV to assume the footage as HLG as well as the HDMI output settings of the camera.

Check out these Sony Guides:

A7R3 Picture Profiles

Picture Profile User Guide

Viewing images on a TV using an HDMI cable

Thanks. I have gone through these but they dont help me resolve the issue. I have the correct TV settings for the inputs because other HLG videos play fine. Even youtube videos (not shot from this camera) show up in HLG format.

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

Still struggling with this. Has anyone been able to make it work?

Also, I read somewhere that HLG content will display fine (not flat) when displayed on non-HDR TVs as well. If i can somehow get HLG mode to work, i can always shoot video in HLG mode since I am not interested in grading.

Dibs

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

You may need to change a setting on the TV to assume the footage as HLG as well as the HDMI output settings of the camera.

Check out these Sony Guides:

A7R3 Picture Profiles

Picture Profile User Guide

Viewing images on a TV using an HDMI cable

Thanks. I have gone through these but they dont help me resolve the issue. I have the correct TV settings for the inputs because other HLG videos play fine. Even youtube videos (not shot from this camera) show up in HLG format.

When you uploaded it to youtube did you encode it in the correct format with metadata?

YouTube HDR metadata tool

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

I'm wondering if the LG TV requires some form of metadata to identify footage as HDR which the Sony might not output. Otherwise it might just assume rec709.

Do I need to go through a tool like Da Vinci? I am selecting PP10 with BT.2020 setting in the camera.

Rob - how are you grading your HDL footage using PP10? I'm very interested in getting the hang this as well, particularly for run-n-gun travel footage.

BTW, here's some good info from A.C. on this very topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvTYhWkBXaU

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

You may need to change a setting on the TV to assume the footage as HLG as well as the HDMI output settings of the camera.

Check out these Sony Guides:

A7R3 Picture Profiles

Picture Profile User Guide

Viewing images on a TV using an HDMI cable

Thanks. I have gone through these but they dont help me resolve the issue. I have the correct TV settings for the inputs because other HLG videos play fine. Even youtube videos (not shot from this camera) show up in HLG format.

When you uploaded it to youtube did you encode it in the correct format with metadata?

YouTube HDR metadata tool

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

I'm wondering if the LG TV requires some form of metadata to identify footage as HDR which the Sony might not output. Otherwise it might just assume rec709.

Do I need to go through a tool like Da Vinci? I am selecting PP10 with BT.2020 setting in the camera.

Check out the links. You can use the YouTube HDR Metadata Tool to attach the HDR metadata to your file before uploading it. Then it should playback in HDR via YouTube.

As far as direct from camera, I'm not sure what you'd need to do for your LG TV to assume incoming footage without metadata is HLG. HLG is backwards compatible with BT.1886 so it's likely just viewing the footage as BT.1886 SDR and not HLG.

I thought the point of recording in HLG was that it could be automatically recognized by HDR-enabled TVs.

Does this mean every clip of HLG footage shot on your camera has to have metadata added to it in order to be viewed as HDR?

Abrak wrote:

teddoman wrote:

I thought the point of recording in HLG was that it could be automatically recognized by HDR-enabled TVs.

Does this mean every clip of HLG footage shot on your camera has to have metadata added to it in order to be viewed as HDR?

Sony 'claims' the point of HLG BT2020 is that it can be played back on an HDR TV without 'grading'. For youtube you definitely have to add metadata to tell youtube it is HDR in much the same way that you need to tell color managed browsers if you are posting aRGB or else it will assume sRGB. (I dont know what happens with HDR TVs but it is likely they default to Rec709.)

I actually quite like the colors of BT2020 as they appear on my sRGB monitor but then again what I am seeing isnt actually BT2020.

TV manufacturers can write code that allows them to recognize HLG BT2020 automatically but youtube/google can't write the same code? Something about this doesn't make sense.

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

I don't have the A7iii yet and for the purposes of this discussion, I assume the A7R3 is similar to the A7iii.

I have a Panasonic GH5 that does both 4K30p HLG (10bit) and 4K60p HLG (8bit). I also have 2 LG OLED displays, the 65" B6 and the newer 77" G7. Both have no trouble properly displaying HLG, when the GH5 is connected directly to an HDMI input of the OLED.

My friend has the 65" OLED and the GH5 and he complained he could not get the OLED to display HLG properly. I asked him if the HDMI cable was a full 18gig cable (it was not). Once he replaced the cable with a newer one, the OLED showed the "HLG/HDR" in the upper right and the video looked correct.

So make sure your cable is a newer one. I'm not familiar with the output selections of the Sony, but the GH5 does have 4:2:2 10 bit and 4:2:0 8 bit outputs. In the case of the GH5, and I suspect the A7R3, you'd need to select the 10bit output option.

Abrak wrote:

I have been playing around with the HLG profiles on the A7riii for a couple of reasons other than than HDR TV playback.

1) It enables log gamma recording at iso 100

2) It has gamma assist

What I have found...

1) There is remarkably little information about the A7riii HLG PP on the internet. I am unsure whether this is a sign that the people who really understand it, dont feel it is worth bothering with or noone has got round to looking at it (especially as videofiles are largely waiting for the A7riii.)

2) There is some debate over whether Bt2020 can actually exist as 8 bit. Some say 10 bit video is a prerequisite for Youtube HDR Bt2020 video (or youtube's prerequisite).

3) While the video output is 'not supposed' to need grading it seems to need it imho. Here are a couple of clips I took yesterday (handheld) (admittedly HLG with Rec709). Hopefully the grade is fairly obvious.

I like this picture profile (particularly being able to shoot at iso 100) with normal exposure.... but I do wish I knew more about it....

I've uploaded HLG videos to YouTube, and yes, it does need to be 10bit for YouTube to tag it as HLG. That how I output my edited videos from FCP.

If you shoot HLG properly, there should be no reason to need to grade the video when it's displayed properly on an HLG-capable TV. Mine looks great on either one of my OLED TVs. That's a significant part of the motivation for HLG, no grading required. If you feel it obviously needs it, then either it wasn't shot properly or it's not being displayed properly.

teddoman wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

cameronrad wrote:

dibs2010 wrote:

I read somewhere that 4K HDR in HLG mode from this camera will directly output hdr video on a compatible hdr tv. I have taken videos in PPP10 profile which, to my understanding, is HLG HDR profile (correct?) But i have not been able to see it in hdr format on my LG 5k OLED tv. The tv is fully compatible with HLG format. I have tried it three different ways:

1. Directly connected camera to tv and played the video from camera.

2. Downloaded the video to a USB drive, connected the usb to tv and played from there.

3. Uploaded to youtube (youtube supports hlg format hdr) and played the uploaded video through tv's youtube app.

Other hlg videos, not recorded by this camera, show HLG HDR message at the top at the start of the playback but these ones dont. Plus, these look dull. So i am sure hdr is not being played.

What am i doing wrong?

Dibs

You may need to change a setting on the TV to assume the footage as HLG as well as the HDMI output settings of the camera.

Check out these Sony Guides:

A7R3 Picture Profiles

Picture Profile User Guide

Viewing images on a TV using an HDMI cable

Thanks. I have gone through these but they dont help me resolve the issue. I have the correct TV settings for the inputs because other HLG videos play fine. Even youtube videos (not shot from this camera) show up in HLG format.

When you uploaded it to youtube did you encode it in the correct format with metadata?

YouTube HDR metadata tool

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552?hl=en

I'm wondering if the LG TV requires some form of metadata to identify footage as HDR which the Sony might not output. Otherwise it might just assume rec709.

Do I need to go through a tool like Da Vinci? I am selecting PP10 with BT.2020 setting in the camera.

Check out the links. You can use the YouTube HDR Metadata Tool to attach the HDR metadata to your file before uploading it. Then it should playback in HDR via YouTube.

As far as direct from camera, I'm not sure what you'd need to do for your LG TV to assume incoming footage without metadata is HLG. HLG is backwards compatible with BT.1886 so it's likely just viewing the footage as BT.1886 SDR and not HLG.

I thought the point of recording in HLG was that it could be automatically recognized by HDR-enabled TVs.

Does this mean every clip of HLG footage shot on your camera has to have metadata added to it in order to be viewed as HDR?

There is confusion about HLG. All HDR-capable TVs/displays are not necessarily HLG-capable. However virtually all HLG capable TVs are HDR capable. HLG is a subset of HDR and the addition of HLG compatibility is newer than HDR compatibility. HLG is unquestionably catching on though. My audio receiver was recently upgraded via firmware for HLG-passthrough.

So yes, if the device that's outputting HLG is set correctly (e.g. the camera) and the TV receiving that signal is HLG-capable, then it should automatically switch to HLG.

However things can go wrong. The HDMI cable may not be capable of passing through the bandwidth necessary for HLG. If you use an audio receiver as part of your signal chain, the receiver may not be capable of passing through the HLG signal. If you connect your HLG clips from a USB drive to the TV's USB input, it's quite likely the USB input is not HLG-capable. That capability is usually relegated to the HDMI inputs of the TV. I use an Oppo 4K BluRay player to input my clips either via a card reader (when inserting the SD card directly) or a USB drive to the USB input of the Oppo. In both cases the signal passes out of the Oppo from its HDMI output.

Abrak wrote:

teddoman wrote:

Abrak wrote:

teddoman wrote:

I thought the point of recording in HLG was that it could be automatically recognized by HDR-enabled TVs.

Does this mean every clip of HLG footage shot on your camera has to have metadata added to it in order to be viewed as HDR?

Sony 'claims' the point of HLG BT2020 is that it can be played back on an HDR TV without 'grading'. For youtube you definitely have to add metadata to tell youtube it is HDR in much the same way that you need to tell color managed browsers if you are posting aRGB or else it will assume sRGB. (I dont know what happens with HDR TVs but it is likely they default to Rec709.)

I actually quite like the colors of BT2020 as they appear on my sRGB monitor but then again what I am seeing isnt actually BT2020.

TV manufacturers can write code that allows them to recognize HLG BT2020 automatically but youtube/google can't write the same code? Something about this doesn't make sense.

Well if you read the BT2020 entry in Wikipedia it defines it as either 10 bit or 12 bit with a minimum resolution of 4k. So in terms of writing code to automatically recognize it, I would guess that Sony's 8 bit internal recording BT2020 doesnt really qualify (it may well work on Sony TVs though!) Maybe you need to record externally?

Actually there are 2 ways to do this. First, as in the GH5, you can have an 8bit 4K60p HLG file that's displayed as HLG on the TV. How is this possible given the file is only 8bits? The camera does an 8bit to 10bit on-the-fly conversion as it outputs the signal to the TV. Obviously for the 10bit file, no on-the-fly conversion is necessary and the straight through output displays as HLG on the TV.

Similarly, in the editing process, you can output an 8bit timeline as a 10bit file. That's all that YouTube needs (assuming other parameters are correct) for the video to be recognized as HLG.

Initially I had a hell of a time having YouTube recognize either my 10bit 4K30p HLG files or 8bit 4K60p HLG files as HLG. After many trial & error attempts, I realized I was outputting 8bit files from FCP that YouTube wouldn't recognize as HLG. In actuality, FCP gave me a warning each time, saying the 8bit video may not display properly. For what ever reason I ignored the warning.

This is all a learning curve.