Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?: Ricoh Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

Started Dec 29, 2017 | Discussions

Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

Dec 29, 2017

Not so long ago someone posted a rumour that a new Ricoh-built camera would be coming out called the GR-E and it would be Pentax branded. It would be a full-frame curved sensor and was described exactly in the following manner, with an (estimated) RRP of $1800. I quote:

Ricoh will cease all camera production and it will be moved to the Pentax brand.
June of 2018 will see the release of the full frame GR-E (Extreme)
122.0 mm (W) × 64.7 mm (H) × 39.8 mm (D)
36 megapixel curved sensor
28mm f2.4 lens (non retractable)
Customizable lens ring.
ISO 51200
New battery

I do not want to discuss the validity of the rumour, the intentionality behind the rumour, or talk about the (now deleted) thread or the original thread starter themselves. But it's a surprising proposition both in terms of a camera and in terms of the Ricoh brand itself and, so I simply want to ask this – is it possible that it could happen?

We all know that the big three (Sony, Canon, Nikon) are developing curved (full-frame) sensors and we can suppose also the cameras that would use them. But as of this moment it seems that no one has bought such a full-frame curved sensor to market. I have also read that a French company has made a fully functional prototype 20Mb curved full-frame sensor (2017). But none of this is the same as a 36Mb sensor being manufactured and being made available to 3rd party camera makers.

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

Thoughts please?

NB. I do please ask you not to talk about the original thread or the OP of that thread. Thank-you.

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LaMeule • Regular Member • Posts: 386

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 29, 2017

Hi,

here is an article in french about that sensor:

http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/capteur-appareil-photo-recherche,1-64733.html

To make it short, that curved sensor is made by CEA-Leti, it is a full frame 24mmx32mm curved sensor made to be used for telescopes.

But if it can be made for telescopes, should come pretty soon for fixed lens cameras!

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rondom • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,543

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 29, 2017

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

Not so long ago someone posted a rumour that a new Ricoh-built camera would be coming out called the GR-E and it would be Pentax branded. It would be a full-frame curved sensor and was described exactly in the following manner, with an (estimated) RRP of $1800. I quote:

Ricoh will cease all camera production and it will be moved to the Pentax brand.
June of 2018 will see the release of the full frame GR-E (Extreme)
122.0 mm (W) × 64.7 mm (H) × 39.8 mm (D)
36 megapixel curved sensor
28mm f2.4 lens (non retractable)
Customizable lens ring.
ISO 51200
New battery

I do not want to discuss the validity of the rumour, the intentionality behind the rumour, or talk about the (now deleted) thread or the original thread starter themselves. But it's a surprising proposition both in terms of a camera and in terms of the Ricoh brand itself and, so I simply want to ask this – is it possible that it could happen?

We all know that the big three (Sony, Canon, Nikon) are developing curved (full-frame) sensors and we can suppose also the cameras that would use them. But as of this moment it seems that no one has bought such a full-frame curved sensor to market. I have also read that a French company has made a fully functional prototype 20Mb curved full-frame sensor (2017). But none of this is the same as a 36Mb sensor being manufactured and being made available to 3rd party camera makers.

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

Thoughts please?

NB. I do please ask you not to talk about the original thread or the OP of that thread. Thank-you.

Obviously a full frame camera in a relatively small body is possible. See rx1. I just can’t see this happening within those sizes. Sometimes specified body depths do not include the lens. But if the rumor is right, it is supposed to be a non retractable fixed lens, and in that case it is customary to include the lens to overall dimension. Obviously f2.4 isn’t a super fast lens, but it would still need to be fairly large. I can’t see this happening within 4 cm (body+lens), not much to debate there- simply absurd (curved sensor or not)

I also think that Ricoh wouldn’t be one of the first to use the cutting edge technologies developed by Sony. It usually takes a while before those trickle down to third party manufacturers. Maybe others have other ideas.

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OP Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to LaMeule • Dec 29, 2017

LaMeule wrote:

Hi,

here is an article in french about that sensor:

http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/capteur-appareil-photo-recherche,1-64733.html

To make it short, that curved sensor is made by CEA-Leti, it is a full frame 24mmx32mm curved sensor made to be used for telescopes.

But if it can be made for telescopes, should come pretty soon for fixed lens cameras!

La Meule

- yes that is the one I mentioned in the post. From what I read (in an English article) it was a fully-working prototype in 2017. There was no mention of when it would go into production.

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teemodk • Senior Member • Posts: 1,457

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to rondom • Dec 29, 2017

Three is no need to ask Sony for permission, there are other players.

Six months ago Project Vermont showed some interesting results. But it has been quiet since then. Haven't searched much though.

"We’ve built numerous prototypes and our latest significantly outperforms a premium 35mm DSLR in both sharpness and uniformity of illumination using a much smaller cellphone-sized sensor.

... Project Vermont shows substantial progress over previous approaches. Applying this technique to thin optical systems like those found in cellphones will require additional research and engineering, but cameras with more conventional optical systems could benefit in the foreseeable future."

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John Gellings • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,394

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 30, 2017

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

I'm not so sure... they aren't innovators in the field (despite 360 cams) and I think the price, if this goal was met, is way too cheap.

I'd be satisfied with a 20-24mp sensor upgrade in APSC with faster AF and stuff of that nature. They haven't even been able to do that.

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John Gellings • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,394

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to rondom • Dec 30, 2017

rondom wrote:

Obviously a full frame camera in a relatively small body is possible. See rx1. I just can’t see this happening within those sizes. Sometimes specified body depths do not include the lens.

Exactly...this is what kills the RX1... that huge lens (comparatively speaking). I think Leica did the right thing with the Q...and gave it a proper sized body.

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tinternaut • Veteran Member • Posts: 8,122

Re: Simple question...

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 31, 2017

Does the curved sensor make a digital, full frame GR, that happens to be the same size as the film GR, at all feasible?

Opinion: The Digital GR, with APS-C, is perfect in size. I would prefer it that Ricoh achieve more within the ballpark of the existing dimensions. Full frame remains very expensive, for your average punter; this means inflexible full frame (e.g. RX1 or Q) is a niche.

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OP Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to rondom • Dec 31, 2017

rondom wrote:

I also think that Ricoh wouldn’t be one of the first to use the cutting edge technologies developed by Sony. It usually takes a while before those trickle down to third party manufacturers. Maybe others have other ideas.

Yes, that's what I thought.

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OP Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to John Gellings • Dec 31, 2017

John Gellings wrote:

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

I'm not so sure... they aren't innovators in the field (despite 360 cams) and I think the price, if this goal was met, is way too cheap.

I'd be satisfied with a 20-24mp sensor upgrade in APSC with faster AF and stuff of that nature. They haven't even been able to do that.

John. This info was presented to the forum as fact. But as is often the case, nothing to substantiate it. So hard to know what to make of it.

One aspect we have not spoken of is the idea that Ricoh would drop the Ricoh brand for this putative camera. That idea troubles me. With the Pentax team at the design helm it will probably not be the kind of camera we know and love.

Even if this price is correct, it would be then end of the GR and the GR fan-base for cost alone.

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'I don't take photographs, I delete them.'
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John Gellings • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,394

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 31, 2017

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

I'm not so sure... they aren't innovators in the field (despite 360 cams) and I think the price, if this goal was met, is way too cheap.

I'd be satisfied with a 20-24mp sensor upgrade in APSC with faster AF and stuff of that nature. They haven't even been able to do that.

John. This info was presented to the forum as fact. But as is often the case, nothing to substantiate it. So hard to know what to make of it.

One aspect we have not spoken of is the idea that Ricoh would drop the Ricoh brand for this putative camera. That idea troubles me. With the Pentax team at the design helm it will probably not be the kind of camera we know and love.

Even if this price is correct, it would be then end of the GR and the GR fan-base for cost alone.

All good points... thanks.

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ANAYV • Forum Pro • Posts: 23,746

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Dec 31, 2017

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

Not so long ago someone posted a rumour that a new Ricoh-built camera would be coming out called the GR-E and it would be Pentax branded. It would be a full-frame curved sensor and was described exactly in the following manner, with an (estimated) RRP of $1800. I quote:

Ricoh will cease all camera production and it will be moved to the Pentax brand.
June of 2018 will see the release of the full frame GR-E (Extreme)
122.0 mm (W) × 64.7 mm (H) × 39.8 mm (D)
36 megapixel curved sensor
28mm f2.4 lens (non retractable)
Customizable lens ring.
ISO 51200
New battery

I do not want to discuss the validity of the rumour, the intentionality behind the rumour, or talk about the (now deleted) thread or the original thread starter themselves. But it's a surprising proposition both in terms of a camera and in terms of the Ricoh brand itself and, so I simply want to ask this – is it possible that it could happen?

We all know that the big three (Sony, Canon, Nikon) are developing curved (full-frame) sensors and we can suppose also the cameras that would use them. But as of this moment it seems that no one has bought such a full-frame curved sensor to market. I have also read that a French company has made a fully functional prototype 20Mb curved full-frame sensor (2017). But none of this is the same as a 36Mb sensor being manufactured and being made available to 3rd party camera makers.

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

Thoughts please?

NB. I do please ask you not to talk about the original thread or the OP of that thread. Thank-you.

Well...let's see what new sensors Sony brings out. Ricoh uses Sony sensors in many of their cameras...and they don't make a CCD/CMOS sensor themselves...so they are limited to the market and what sensors are available.

More camera companies use Sony sensors than any other brand. Canon uses them for all their small cameras (non APS-C). So has Nikon with some of their compacts.

Panasonic used their own for long time, but now also uses Sony sensors (not counting 4/3 sensors, which either Sony or Panasonic makes).

The 1" type sensor has been one of the best sensors, for it's size...breaking new ground...allowing for longer reach lenses, but with 4x sensor size than the typical 1/2.3" sensors the small camera's used.

FZ1000 , for instance caused many folk to sell off their D-SLR's and lenses for an all in one camera, with good high ISO ability.....slightly more control of DOF than the smaller sensors.(not much)

It uses a Sony 1" type sensor, as does the Canon G3x and many Sony RX10 and RX100, and their many versions.

So...unless Sony brings the curved sensor to the masses...we will have to wait and see..unless another sensor company steps up...but won't be easy at first.

I would not be surprised if they do move up to a FF sensor in their next camera.

I'm content with the GXR and GX100....then again I don't use them for candids...like everyone else here does...so my needs are a bit different...shooting landscapes, scenics...and plenty of wildlife....something Ricoh doesn't offer (long telephoto zoom superzoom cameras). Amazing what these cameras can produce!!

ANAYV

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Thylacine • New Member • Posts: 4

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Jan 3, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:
...
One aspect we have not spoken of is the idea that Ricoh would drop the Ricoh brand for this putative camera. That idea troubles me. With the Pentax team at the design helm it will probably not be the kind of camera we know and love.
Even if this price is correct, it would be then end of the GR and the GR fan-base for cost alone.

To the best of my knowledge, the Ricoh and Pentax design resources were merged after Ricoh took over the Pentax brand, so I'm not sure how valid your concerns are.

As for the emergence of the purported "GR-E" having an effect on the GR and its users, I find this harder to believe than the possibility of a GR-E being produced. The only way this could occur is if the existing GR models were dropped. In fact, I would have thought the GR-E might create an even greater "halo effect" than the GRs have to begin with.

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OP Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Thylacine • Jan 3, 2018

Thylacine wrote:

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

...
One aspect we have not spoken of is the idea that Ricoh would drop the Ricoh brand for this putative camera. That idea troubles me. With the Pentax team at the design helm it will probably not be the kind of camera we know and love.

Even if this price is correct, it would be then end of the GR and the GR fan-base for cost alone.

To the best of my knowledge, the Ricoh and Pentax design resources were merged after Ricoh took over the Pentax brand, so I'm not sure how valid your concerns are.

As for the emergence of the purported "GR-E" having an effect on the GR and its users, I find this harder to believe than the possibility of a GR-E being produced. The only way this could occur is if the existing GR models were dropped. In fact, I would have thought the GR-E might create an even greater "halo effect" than the GRs have to begin with.

You may be right about the team. I suppose my worry would be that once the 'Ricoh' branding is dropped from the cameras they will become more like the 'Pentax' brand in style , form and function.

The post that was describing this unsubstantiated Ricoh-Pentax (ie. possibly fictional) future seemed to imply (to me) that the Ricoh camera is over. If they moved the GR over to Pentax, then it's over, isn't? As soon as they stop selling the GR – which they will have to once the current sensor is out of fashion or out of production.

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Harold66 • Forum Pro • Posts: 12,002

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Jan 3, 2018

Lets hope NOT.

Harold

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John Gellings • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,394

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Harold66 • Jan 3, 2018

Pentax Rumors is going with it... based on this thread...

https://pentaxrumors.com/2018/01/03/ricoh-pentax-gr-e-full-frame-curved-sensor-camera-rumors/

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Harold66 • Forum Pro • Posts: 12,002

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to John Gellings • Jan 3, 2018

John Gellings wrote:

Pentax Rumors is going with it... based on this thread...

https://pentaxrumors.com/2018/01/03/ricoh-pentax-gr-e-full-frame-curved-sensor-camera-rumors/

Well I still hope it is a false rumor. if it happens , it is going to be quite different camera in terms of size, price , and handling

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OP Tungsten Nordstein • Veteran Member • Posts: 3,253

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to John Gellings • Jan 3, 2018

John Gellings wrote:

Pentax Rumors is going with it... based on this thread...

https://pentaxrumors.com/2018/01/03/ricoh-pentax-gr-e-full-frame-curved-sensor-camera-rumors/

Amazing they'd run this based on a *second-hand* rumour that had no further input from the originator (and who in this case deleted their own account and posts). They must be desperate for traffic.

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Dante Birchen • Junior Member • Posts: 46

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Tungsten Nordstein • Jan 3, 2018

Tungsten Nordstein wrote:

Not so long ago someone posted a rumour that a new Ricoh-built camera would be coming out called the GR-E and it would be Pentax branded. It would be a full-frame curved sensor and was described exactly in the following manner, with an (estimated) RRP of $1800. I quote:

Ricoh will cease all camera production and it will be moved to the Pentax brand.
June of 2018 will see the release of the full frame GR-E (Extreme)
122.0 mm (W) × 64.7 mm (H) × 39.8 mm (D)
36 megapixel curved sensor
28mm f2.4 lens (non retractable)
Customizable lens ring.
ISO 51200
New battery

I do not want to discuss the validity of the rumour, the intentionality behind the rumour, or talk about the (now deleted) thread or the original thread starter themselves. But it's a surprising proposition both in terms of a camera and in terms of the Ricoh brand itself and, so I simply want to ask this – is it possible that it could happen?

We all know that the big three (Sony, Canon, Nikon) are developing curved (full-frame) sensors and we can suppose also the cameras that would use them. But as of this moment it seems that no one has bought such a full-frame curved sensor to market. I have also read that a French company has made a fully functional prototype 20Mb curved full-frame sensor (2017). But none of this is the same as a 36Mb sensor being manufactured and being made available to 3rd party camera makers.

So, could Ricoh practically introduce such a camera in June 2018 as was stated?

Thoughts please?

NB. I do please ask you not to talk about the original thread or the OP of that thread. Thank-you.

Ricoh makes Pentax. So if they seize production the seize Pentax as well. If they are preparing to discontinue the Ricoh brand in camera's maybe they want to sell Pentax. But why then invest in revolutionary curved sensor tech if you are stepping out. And why a curved sensor? For pixelpeepers who are only interested in corner resolution? That doesn't really match with the Ricoh philosophy. They would sooner bring out a GR III with 24mp sensor and maybe pdaf focussing points. My take on this rumor is that it is just somebodies wet dream.

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John Gellings • Veteran Member • Posts: 9,394

Re: Is a full-frame curved-sensor 'GR-E' possible by mid-2018?

In reply to Harold66 • Jan 3, 2018

Harold66 wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Pentax Rumors is going with it... based on this thread...

https://pentaxrumors.com/2018/01/03/ricoh-pentax-gr-e-full-frame-curved-sensor-camera-rumors/

Well I still hope it is a false rumor. if it happens , it is going to be quite different camera in terms of size, price , and handling

I agree completely. I don't care if they make this as well as a traditional GR...but not only this.

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