Nikon mirrorless and adapting non-nikon lenses

Started Dec 13, 2017 | Discussions
RubberDials Senior Member • Posts: 1,207
Where have I heard this before?.
3

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

It's amusing that you dismiss my comment as 'BS' before lapsing into a ludicrous revenge fantasy of Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

You understand that, don't you? That Nikon do not currently make a mirrorless camera? But in a year or two they are going to cause Sony's 'share to drop below 50%'?

There's a strong possibility that neither Nikon or Canon will ever release a FF mirrorless camera, let alone one as good as the A9 or the A7rIII.

The road to such a camera is not the easy canter you imagine. Sony has only been able to make the rapid strides it has by having access to cutting edge sensor design, as well as years of expertise in the pro video market and a culture and obsession with miniaturisation. They were also able to underwrite the cost of e-mount by using it as a cinema mount. Even the IBIS in the A7rIII is a refinement of IBIS first introduced in a Sony camera 11 years ago. Nikon would be starting with version one of this technology if they develop it at all, which I personally think is unlikely.

Life recorder
Life recorder Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: That is complete BS.

brianric wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

I have an NX1, totally useless for action due to EVF lag.

That is your opinion I guess.

I found the NX1 to be better than my D750 (and the NX1 shoots at 15 FPS).   Neither will come close to $5000 DLSRs, but neither cost 1/2 that much. 

Seriosuly, though if you want to capture a baseball the split second it hits the bat, the NX1 beats most $5000 DSLRs too.   EVF Lag is pretty meaningless in those situations.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

Life recorder
Life recorder Regular Member • Posts: 279
Good point.
2

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point.  Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment".   They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too.   Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales.   That is a simple fact.   The question is how much will they eat away?  10%?  30%?  50%?  Time will tell.  We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country.  (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

RubberDials Senior Member • Posts: 1,207
Re: Good point.
1

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point. Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment". They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too. Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales. That is a simple fact. The question is how much will they eat away? 10%? 30%? 50%? Time will tell. We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country. (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

Did you actually read my last post? Canon isn't going to release a FF mirrorless camera. It would require a new mount. If they were intending to use M-mount the recent 85/1.4L would have been in m-mount. Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it) this has no bearing on the future FF camera development. Canon cannot enter the mirrorless FF market without losing money. They cannot afford to orphan EF mount. They also don't have the technology to compete with Sony on their own terms. As I keep telling you but you don't hear it there isn't much traditional SLR technology in a mirrorless camera. It's tightly integrated with the sensor development. Sony e-mount lenses don't even have focus gears or hard infinity stops - the lens is collimated with the focus points on the sensor when the camera is powered on. Apart from the shutter the cameras are approaching solid state.

And according to DPR the electronic shutter in the A9 is only one stop slower than a mechanical shutter. Clearly future iterations will be on par. The use of an electronic shutter allows the A9 to shoot silently and without blackout but there is another benefit - 100% full-time phase detect focussing without the need for predictive algorithms. The electronic shutter also uses less power than a mechanical shutter. It isn't hard to see how this technology will make obsolete DSLR technology. Canon currently only has one sensor with an on-chip ADC! They are years behind Sony. Nikon has to buy in their sensors and so cannot hope to compete.

cosmicnode Veteran Member • Posts: 3,444
Re: Good point.
1

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point. Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment". They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too. Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales. That is a simple fact. The question is how much will they eat away? 10%? 30%? 50%? Time will tell. We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country. (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

Did you actually read my last post? Canon isn't going to release a FF mirrorless camera. It would require a new mount. If they were intending to use M-mount the recent 85/1.4L would have been in m-mount. Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it) this has no bearing on the future FF camera development. Canon cannot enter the mirrorless FF market without losing money. They cannot afford to orphan EF mount. They also don't have the technology to compete with Sony on their own terms. As I keep telling you but you don't hear it there isn't much traditional SLR technology in a mirrorless camera. It's tightly integrated with the sensor development. Sony e-mount lenses don't even have focus gears or hard infinity stops - the lens is collimated with the focus points on the sensor when the camera is powered on. Apart from the shutter the cameras are approaching solid state.

I believe most new lenses from all the current dslr and mirrorless manufacturers, use hypersonic or variations of solid state motors which focus in this manner. also IBIS cannot possibly be solid state , how would the sensor be moved around  ?

And according to DPR the electronic shutter in the A9 is only one stop slower than a mechanical shutter. Clearly future iterations will be on par. The use of an electronic shutter allows the A9 to shoot silently and without blackout but there is another benefit - 100% full-time phase detect focussing without the need for predictive algorithms. The electronic shutter also uses less power than a mechanical shutter. It isn't hard to see how this technology will make obsolete DSLR technology. Canon currently only has one sensor with an on-chip ADC! They are years behind Sony. Nikon has to buy in their sensors and so cannot hope to compete.

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Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

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skookum8 Regular Member • Posts: 474
Re: Good point.

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point. Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment". They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too. Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales. That is a simple fact. The question is how much will they eat away? 10%? 30%? 50%? Time will tell. We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country. (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

I find your point interesting.  Is Canon beating Sony in mirrorless outside of Japan?  It's a hollow victory if it's just Japan.

Likewise in eating away market share in the percentages you speculate - who will be driving those sales when we already have the D850 and a likely D750 successor soon?  Why would someone want to buy new Nikon mirrorless in light of those cameras and there isn't likely to be much in terms of new native mirrorless lenses.

In that regard, I think a new Nikon mirrorless is more likely to be complementary to the existing Nikon offering, which is better for existing Nikon owners but will that not have the share impact you're anticipating.

Life recorder
Life recorder Regular Member • Posts: 279
So true
1

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point. Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment". They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too. Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales. That is a simple fact. The question is how much will they eat away? 10%? 30%? 50%? Time will tell. We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country. (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it)...

Well, since you are short on facts, I'll try to help you.

"BCN has released their year-end retail sales rankings for the Japanese market for 2016, ... A reminder: BCN is an organization that tracks cash register receipts in Japan. Their data is based on actual sales.

[that last part is important because CIPA usually quotes self-reported "shipments".]

Olympus: 26.8% Canon : 18.5% Sony: 17.9%"

So yeah, despite you denials and doubts, last year Sony continued their slide falling to #3 and only a 17.9% market share.... a new low for the past 7 years".

So as the facts show, At least in Japan (Sony's home country) Sony has 0% of the DLSR market and lower share than Canon of the mirrorless market. If and when Canon does release a FF mirrorless camera, it is very safe to assume Sony's market share will plummet even more making them a small niche player...at least in Japan.

But back to the topic.   I am confident Nikon will announce their new FF mirrorless system later this year.   All, pure speculation, but if they bought Samsung's technology, they would have a great head start.   Several forum members reported first hand of  Samsung designing FF lenses just before corporate shut down all ILC camera manufacturing.  As I said, time will tell.   It could be Nikon has a great surprise for us all.

falconeyes
falconeyes Senior Member • Posts: 1,588
Re: Nikon mirrorless and adapting non-nikon lenses
1

amateurphotographer wrote:

Anyone any thoughts?

When the Nikon Mirrorless eventually emerges, the more urgent question is: will it blend?

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Falk Lumo

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Ceistinne Senior Member • Posts: 1,766
Re: Nikon mirrorless and adapting non-nikon lenses
1

If Nikon want to produce a high end mirrorless camera, or transition all their products to mirrorless they need a technology partner. As it stands, despite being the oldest living name in photography and having a huge experience and knowledge base, they have little expertise in the areas that you need for mirrorless.

Nikon, "the oldest living name in photography", I think not, and if they do decide to go mirrorless,  either APSC or FF, be sure that they will make them as good as their DSLRs which they will continue to make as well for as long as necessary.

They are not depending on forum "designers" & "engineers" for guidance on the way forward and neither do Canon or any of the other manufacturers of photographic hardware.

S

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RubberDials Senior Member • Posts: 1,207
Re: So true
1

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

If Nikon had IBIS and on sensor PDAF I believe they would have used it in the D850 - it would have made a great camera even greater. One of the few negatives found by DPR in their test was the inconsistent focus, which would have been eliminated by on-sensor PDAF.

What you believe is not the same thing as what you know. There is a 100% chance that some things you believe are not true.

Regarding the D850's AF, I'm curious as to how on-sensor PDAF will improve mirror-down autofocus consistency? Because in live view, the D850 review says " I switched into Live View, which uses the main image sensor and contrast detection to focus incredibly accurately, and all was well."

You're cross-mixing topics as justification for the other. The D850 has no consistency problems in live view AF, which is where on-sensor PDAF would come into play. The consistency issues stated are for 'dslr-mode', where on sensor PDAF is irrelevant.

I don't think the D500 is the same as a mirrorless, but I take your point. You would have a much better idea of the culture of Nikon than I would.

I don't remember any claim that the D500 was mirrorless? The point was that Nikon plays its cards close to its chest, and one such example was the D500.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? That's just an excuse given out by the marketing department.

I don't judge whether it's true or not--just that it was addressed.

Non Sony users seem to have trouble understanding how Sony's semiconductor division works. They have a catalogue of sensors that they sell. Nikon buys from it, as does Canon, Apple, Fuji and others. They also fab to order. The a7rII sensor and the A9 sensor were fabricated to order by the photo-division. Sony Semiconductor couldn't sell them to anybody as they don't own them.

Sony Semiconductor may have offered a 42mp sensor to Nikon but it wasn't the one used in the A7rII/II

Also the A7rII/III sensor has 399 phase detect points. Nikon has never released an FX or DX camera with on sensor PDAF - so they wouldn't want a sensor with it.

I'm well aware of how Sony's semiconductor division works, and how certain cameras use "stock" sensors. This includes cameras like the D750, D610, and I believe the D810--and Pentax K1. Nikon's recent sensors (D5, D500, D850) were Nikon-designed.

I'm not aware of any other "stock" 42MP sensors that Sony offers in any cameras?

You're also jumping to a made-up conclusion: "Nikon wouldn't want a sensor with on-sensor PDAF because they've never released an FX or DX camera with it." What factual evidence are you basing this on?

That's the point. Your claim wasn't about scaling--it was about starting from scratch.

They wouldn't be scaling up, no, they would be starting from scratch.

"Starting from scratch" means using absolutely no existing technology. We were not just talking about on-sensor PDAF--this is the camera as a whole.

You really believe that a new Nikon won't even re-use software, or interface, or shutter mechnisms, or learnings from mounts, or lcd screens, or noise reduction algorithms, or sensors, or feature options, etc.?

And you really believe it takes a camera manufacturer 18 months to start from absolute 0, with no technology behind the camera whatsoever?

Good luck with that.

As I said in my first reply to you: "Their isn't much traditional DSLR technology in a mirrorless camera. In fact there's only really the shutter."

That of course is complete BS. A mirrorless camera is a DSLR with the mirror removed and an EVF instead of an OVF. They both use near identical processors. They both use near identical batteries. They both use near identical buttons and controls. They both use near identical flashes. They both use the same memory cards. They both use the same LCD displays. In many cases they both use PDAF (OS vs. Traditional).

The other mirror differences are, mirrorless cameras tend to have small uncomfortable grips and smaller or fewer controls,

As for the topic there were rumors a while back that Nikon bought Samsung's mirrorless technology. The NX1 is still today one of the best if not the best mirrorless APSC camera. With Nikon's ability to get more out of Sony sensors than Sony and Nikon's superior line of lenses, they could do very well in mirrorless.

One thing is for sure. The day Nikon releases a mirrorless FF camera, Sony's market share in that segment will drop. It could only drop from 100% to 90% or over a year or two it could drop to only 70%. If Canon joins the game too, it would be reasonable to believe Sony's share could drop well below 50% in only a year or two. And Sony has nowhere else to go. Canon is beating them in APSC mirrorless in Japan already even with only a couple lack luster bodies and two or three lenses.

Sony's overall ILC market share is still only about 12-14%, the same as it was back in 2008. Since they have no other segments to join, with Canon and Nikon entering the FF mirrorless segment, Sony's market share could end up well below 2008 levels.

...Canon and Nikon suddenly beating Sony at its own game in mirrorless, despite them having barely any stake in the segment in the case of Canon and currently none at all in the case of Nikon.

That is a good point. Somehow Canon is already beating Sony in Japan, despite having very little "stake in the segment". They only have a couple mediocre APSC bodies, but somehow are outselling all of Sony's APSC and FF offerings.

So when Nikon and Canon release FF mirrorless, no one thinks Sony will suddenly start selling more FF mirrorless too. Instead Canikon will eat away at more Sony sales. That is a simple fact. The question is how much will they eat away? 10%? 30%? 50%? Time will tell. We already know with little effort Canon is beating all Sony has to offer in their home country. (of course Sony has 0% of the DSLR segment which is still 70% of all ILCs).

Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it)...

Well, since you are short on facts, I'll try to help you.

LOL. I'm not short on facts - I've provided plenty, but I'm definitely short of answers from you.

Canon cannot enter the mirrorless FF market without losing money. They cannot afford to orphan EF mount. They also don't have the technology to compete with Sony on their own terms. Their sensor development is several years behind Sony, they currently only have one sensor with an on-chip ADC.

Nikon is in an even worse situation having to buy-in their sensors. The spec of their mirrorless camera would therefore determined by what sort of chip they can get hold of.

"BCN has released their year-end retail sales rankings for the Japanese market for 2016, ... A reminder: BCN is an organization that tracks cash register receipts in Japan. Their data is based on actual sales.

[that last part is important because CIPA usually quotes self-reported "shipments".]

Olympus: 26.8% Canon : 18.5% Sony: 17.9%"

From this you deduce that Nikon and Canon will 'eat away 50%' of Sony's market share within 2 years?' Don't ever apply for a job as a market analyst.

The Canon sales are 0.6% more than Sony. You are aware that the Canon mirrorless products are much cheaper and so should in every case sell more - a lot more - not half a percent. They are also all consumer level. Sony's mirrorless offering is largely professional and prosumer products that do not have mass-market appeal.

A Canon FF mirrorless camera would exist in the same space and would not be priced at the level of current Canon mirrorless products.

So yeah, despite you denials and doubts, last year Sony continued their slide falling to #3 and only a 17.9% market share.... a new low for the past 7 years".

So as the facts show, At least in Japan (Sony's home country) Sony has 0% of the DLSR market and lower share than Canon of the mirrorless market.

Sony doesn't make DSLRs. It's not surprising they have 0% of the market. I bet they have 0% of the ladies underwear market as well.

If and when Canon does release a FF mirrorless camera, it is very safe to assume Sony's market share will plummet even more making them a small niche player...at least in Japan.

As I say, don't ever apply for a job as a market analyst. The sales figures you quote actually suggest that Olympus is more likely to dominate the market than Canon or Nikon. It's certainly not safe to assume anything from those figures and cameras that don't actually exist, let alone 'very safe'.

But back to the topic. I am confident Nikon will announce their new FF mirrorless system later this year. All, pure speculation,

This is the problem. You're free to believe whatever you want, but belief without evidence is faith. Don't criticise me when I'm talking about things that are known.

but if they bought Samsung's technology, they would have a great head start. Several forum members reported first hand of Samsung designing FF lenses just before corporate shut down all ILC camera manufacturing.

If Nikon went into a technical partnership with Samsung then they would have a chance. I'm sure Canon, Nikon and Sony thank their lucky stars most days that Panasonic is tied up with Leica and M43.

As I said, time will tell. It could be Nikon has a great surprise for us all.

Time will tell. But don't wait for Canon and Nikon if you want a mirrorless camera. Go and get one now. I'd say the same if Sony was Nikon and Nikon Sony.

RubberDials Senior Member • Posts: 1,207
Re: Good point.

cosmicnode wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Did you actually read my last post? Canon isn't going to release a FF mirrorless camera. It would require a new mount. If they were intending to use M-mount the recent 85/1.4L would have been in m-mount. Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it) this has no bearing on the future FF camera development. Canon cannot enter the mirrorless FF market without losing money. They cannot afford to orphan EF mount. They also don't have the technology to compete with Sony on their own terms. As I keep telling you but you don't hear it there isn't much traditional SLR technology in a mirrorless camera. It's tightly integrated with the sensor development. Sony e-mount lenses don't even have focus gears or hard infinity stops - the lens is collimated with the focus points on the sensor when the camera is powered on. Apart from the shutter the cameras are approaching solid state.

I believe most new lenses from all the current dslr and mirrorless manufacturers, use hypersonic or variations of solid state motors which focus in this manner. also IBIS cannot possibly be solid state , how would the sensor be moved around ?

-- hide signature --

Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

The Sony lenses are different in that they don't have any gearing. They will not stay in focus without power.

The 'approaching solid state' comment is to underline the fact that 'traditional' camera manufacturing expertise counts for little in the production of mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras are essentially video cameras so it's not surprising that Sony and Panasonic should come to dominate the technology.

MrScrooge Contributing Member • Posts: 742
Re: So true
2

RubberDials wrote:

LOL. I'm not short on facts - I've provided plenty, but I'm definitely short of answers from you.

But back to the topic. I am confident Nikon will announce their new FF mirrorless system later this year. All, pure speculation,

This is the problem. You're free to believe whatever you want, but belief without evidence is faith. Don't criticise me when I'm talking about things that are known.

This whole thread is just speculation.

It's a slippery slope to hypocrisy putting your own opinion forward as some sort of authoritative information source while admonishing others for stating their own opinions.

At least Life Recorder is not misrepresenting his statements for anything more than they are.

As I said, time will tell. It could be Nikon has a great surprise for us all.

Time will tell. But don't wait for Canon and Nikon if you want a mirrorless camera. Go and get one now. I'd say the same if Sony was Nikon and Nikon Sony.

We often see folks on here putting off upgrading indefinitely just in case the next big thing is round the corner - all the while potentially missing shots they might have had with nicer gear.
I understand the logic of encouraging those guys to stop worrying about whats next and buy the kit they really want now.

But switching to mirrorless isn't an upgrade - not with current technology anyway. It's a side move (or possibly downgrade given what's currently available and depending on your requirements) - from a mature, stable and proven platform to one less so.

In my opinion, it'd be a shrewd move to see what direction Nikon are going before making any decisions. Especially before jumping from Nikon's comprehensive lens/accessory ecosystem to Sony's incomplete one.

YMMV.

Life recorder
Life recorder Regular Member • Posts: 279
His falsehoods and suspect speculation...
1

MrScrooge wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

LOL. I'm not short on facts - I've provided plenty, but I'm definitely short of answers from you.

But back to the topic. I am confident Nikon will announce their new FF mirrorless system later this year. All, pure speculation,

This is the problem. You're free to believe whatever you want, but belief without evidence is faith. Don't criticise me when I'm talking about things that are known.

This whole thread is just speculation.

It's a slippery slope to hypocrisy putting your own opinion forward as some sort of authoritative information source while admonishing others for stating their own opinions.

At least Life Recorder is not misrepresenting his statements for anything more than they are.

As I said, time will tell. It could be Nikon has a great surprise for us all.

Time will tell. But don't wait for Canon and Nikon if you want a mirrorless camera. Go and get one now. I'd say the same if Sony was Nikon and Nikon Sony.

We often see folks on here putting off upgrading indefinitely just in case the next big thing is round the corner - all the while potentially missing shots they might have had with nicer gear.
I understand the logic of encouraging those guys to stop worrying about whats next and buy the kit they really want now.

But switching to mirrorless isn't an upgrade - not with current technology anyway. It's a side move (or possibly downgrade given what's currently available and depending on your requirements) - from a mature, stable and proven platform to one less so.

In my opinion, it'd be a shrewd move to see what direction Nikon are going before making any decisions. Especially before jumping from Nikon's comprehensive lens/accessory ecosystem to Sony's incomplete one.

YMMV.

Very good post.

One other fact he will try desperately to deny...  A large number of Sony FF owners are using Canon DSLR lenses TODAY!  Some use them exclusively!!

He falsely keeps claiming a new FF mirrorless system will only work with a new mount.  This is hilarious and makes him look really, really bad since we already see FF mirrorless owners using both Canon EF and Sony A mount DSLR lenses!   There are even a few using Nikon FF lenses with both AF and aperture control!   And Sigma makes an adapter too, so mirrorless owners can use Sigma FF DSLR lenses!

The TRUTH is both Canon and Nikon could enter the FF mirrorless market and there would be hundreds of AF lenses available from day one.  And we are already seeing Sony owners choosing Canon DSLR lenses over the more expensive/lesser quality Sony lenses.

The poor guy is short on facts, and keeps spreading falsehoods.

cosmicnode Veteran Member • Posts: 3,444
Re: Good point.
1

RubberDials wrote:

cosmicnode wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

Did you actually read my last post? Canon isn't going to release a FF mirrorless camera. It would require a new mount. If they were intending to use M-mount the recent 85/1.4L would have been in m-mount. Whether or not Canon outsells Sony mirrorless in Japan (and I doubt it) this has no bearing on the future FF camera development. Canon cannot enter the mirrorless FF market without losing money. They cannot afford to orphan EF mount. They also don't have the technology to compete with Sony on their own terms. As I keep telling you but you don't hear it there isn't much traditional SLR technology in a mirrorless camera. It's tightly integrated with the sensor development. Sony e-mount lenses don't even have focus gears or hard infinity stops - the lens is collimated with the focus points on the sensor when the camera is powered on. Apart from the shutter the cameras are approaching solid state.

I believe most new lenses from all the current dslr and mirrorless manufacturers, use hypersonic or variations of solid state motors which focus in this manner. also IBIS cannot possibly be solid state , how would the sensor be moved around ?

The Sony lenses are different in that they don't have any gearing. They will not stay in focus without power.

Take a look at this teardown of a Canon 35mm, there are no gears. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/12/canon-35mm-f1-4-mk-ii-teardown/

Sony are using linear motors , others are using ring motors, no gears. It's a technology any manufacturer can adapt if they want to. I think Nikon "AF-P" lenses with a stepping motor are the same as the Sony.

The 'approaching solid state' comment is to underline the fact that 'traditional' camera manufacturing expertise counts for little in the production of mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless cameras are essentially video cameras so it's not surprising that Sony and Panasonic should come to dominate the technology.

Traditional camerals have a mirror "extra" the rest of the technology is the same. Lose the mirror and replace the pentaprism with a  evf.

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Mike.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure."

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skookum8 Regular Member • Posts: 474
Re: His falsehoods and suspect speculation...

Life recorder wrote:

MrScrooge wrote:

RubberDials wrote:

LOL. I'm not short on facts - I've provided plenty, but I'm definitely short of answers from you.

But back to the topic. I am confident Nikon will announce their new FF mirrorless system later this year. All, pure speculation,

This is the problem. You're free to believe whatever you want, but belief without evidence is faith. Don't criticise me when I'm talking about things that are known.

This whole thread is just speculation.

It's a slippery slope to hypocrisy putting your own opinion forward as some sort of authoritative information source while admonishing others for stating their own opinions.

At least Life Recorder is not misrepresenting his statements for anything more than they are.

As I said, time will tell. It could be Nikon has a great surprise for us all.

Time will tell. But don't wait for Canon and Nikon if you want a mirrorless camera. Go and get one now. I'd say the same if Sony was Nikon and Nikon Sony.

We often see folks on here putting off upgrading indefinitely just in case the next big thing is round the corner - all the while potentially missing shots they might have had with nicer gear.
I understand the logic of encouraging those guys to stop worrying about whats next and buy the kit they really want now.

But switching to mirrorless isn't an upgrade - not with current technology anyway. It's a side move (or possibly downgrade given what's currently available and depending on your requirements) - from a mature, stable and proven platform to one less so.

In my opinion, it'd be a shrewd move to see what direction Nikon are going before making any decisions. Especially before jumping from Nikon's comprehensive lens/accessory ecosystem to Sony's incomplete one.

YMMV.

Very good post.

One other fact he will try desperately to deny... A large number of Sony FF owners are using Canon DSLR lenses TODAY! Some use them exclusively!!

He falsely keeps claiming a new FF mirrorless system will only work with a new mount. This is hilarious and makes him look really, really bad since we already see FF mirrorless owners using both Canon EF and Sony A mount DSLR lenses! There are even a few using Nikon FF lenses with both AF and aperture control! And Sigma makes an adapter too, so mirrorless owners can use Sigma FF DSLR lenses!

The TRUTH is both Canon and Nikon could enter the FF mirrorless market and there would be hundreds of AF lenses available from day one. And we are already seeing Sony owners choosing Canon DSLR lenses over the more expensive/lesser quality Sony lenses.

The poor guy is short on facts, and keeps spreading falsehoods.

I think you are missing a really important point - native lenses are essential to realize the full benefits of going mirrorless.  The adapted scenarios you mention all have significant compromises in performance where I'm generally better off using them on my DSLR.

beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 5,650
Re: His falsehoods and suspect speculation...

skookum8 wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

Very good post.

One other fact he will try desperately to deny... A large number of Sony FF owners are using Canon DSLR lenses TODAY! Some use them exclusively!!

He falsely keeps claiming a new FF mirrorless system will only work with a new mount. This is hilarious and makes him look really, really bad since we already see FF mirrorless owners using both Canon EF and Sony A mount DSLR lenses! There are even a few using Nikon FF lenses with both AF and aperture control! And Sigma makes an adapter too, so mirrorless owners can use Sigma FF DSLR lenses!

The TRUTH is both Canon and Nikon could enter the FF mirrorless market and there would be hundreds of AF lenses available from day one. And we are already seeing Sony owners choosing Canon DSLR lenses over the more expensive/lesser quality Sony lenses.

The poor guy is short on facts, and keeps spreading falsehoods.

I think you are missing a really important point - native lenses are essential to realize the full benefits of going mirrorless. The adapted scenarios you mention all have significant compromises in performance where I'm generally better off using them on my DSLR.

What are you basing this statement on? Which significant compromises performances are you referring to?

I think you are missing a really important point that most adapted-lens performance degradation may be heavily influenced by cross-manufacturer adapters, like converting a Canon lens to a Sony body. There are few examples of a manufacturer adapting its own lenses, like adapting a Canon lens onto a Canon body.

In this latter example, Canon doesn't seem to have significant compromises in performance with it's DSLR lenses on its mirrorless bodies by using an adapter.

Native lenses aren't essential to anything. The combination of the individual lens communication method and the camera's autofocus method are what will determine its performance. In many cases today, this is primarily electronic communication.

skookum8 Regular Member • Posts: 474
Re: His falsehoods and suspect speculation...
1

beatboxa wrote:

skookum8 wrote:

Life recorder wrote:

Very good post.

One other fact he will try desperately to deny... A large number of Sony FF owners are using Canon DSLR lenses TODAY! Some use them exclusively!!

He falsely keeps claiming a new FF mirrorless system will only work with a new mount. This is hilarious and makes him look really, really bad since we already see FF mirrorless owners using both Canon EF and Sony A mount DSLR lenses! There are even a few using Nikon FF lenses with both AF and aperture control! And Sigma makes an adapter too, so mirrorless owners can use Sigma FF DSLR lenses!

The TRUTH is both Canon and Nikon could enter the FF mirrorless market and there would be hundreds of AF lenses available from day one. And we are already seeing Sony owners choosing Canon DSLR lenses over the more expensive/lesser quality Sony lenses.

The poor guy is short on facts, and keeps spreading falsehoods.

I think you are missing a really important point - native lenses are essential to realize the full benefits of going mirrorless. The adapted scenarios you mention all have significant compromises in performance where I'm generally better off using them on my DSLR.

What are you basing this statement on? Which significant compromises performances are you referring to?

I think you are missing a really important point that most adapted-lens performance degradation may be heavily influenced by cross-manufacturer adapters, like converting a Canon lens to a Sony body. There are few examples of a manufacturer adapting its own lenses, like adapting a Canon lens onto a Canon body.

In this latter example, Canon doesn't seem to have significant compromises in performance with it's DSLR lenses on its mirrorless bodies by using an adapter.

Native lenses aren't essential to anything. The combination of the individual lens communication method and the camera's autofocus method are what will determine its performance. In many cases today, this is primarily electronic communication.

The cross manufacturer adapter scenario has the most egregious set of compromises where I am better off sticking with the DSLR. Maybe Canon has no compromises in their adapter but Sony certainly does in A-mount to E - where focusing and speed is compromised depending on the lens.  So for Nikon mirrorless I would expect the same and would want at least some minimal set of new native lenses to take full advantage of what mirrorless offers.

beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 5,650
Re: His falsehoods and suspect speculation...

skookum8 wrote:

The cross manufacturer adapter scenario has the most egregious set of compromises where I am better off sticking with the DSLR. Maybe Canon has no compromises in their adapter but Sony certainly does in A-mount to E - where focusing and speed is compromised depending on the lens. So for Nikon mirrorless I would expect the same and would want at least some minimal set of new native lenses to take full advantage of what mirrorless offers.

I generally agree with this statement. Realistically, Nikon will have more challenges than Canon due to Nikon's various complexities in its mount that Canon doesn't have with its EF system. But I don't think these will stop Nikon from covering most modern lenses.

So I'll be happy as long as Nikon covers AF-S & E lenses well, like Canon covered their EF lenses well. I'll be happier if Nikon covers the D lenses too, though I have less faith in this happening.

I'd also want a few native mirrorless lenses in addition to the adapter for my existing lenses.

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