Panasonic should produce their own micro 43 sensors

I believe this guy is on to something regarding the G9 and micro 43 development in general, from the perspective of someone considering various formats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOPaYdz9lw0

He is basically saying that the G9 seems extremely interesting, but he can't understand why they are using the same sensor as the GH5. Why no new sensor?

Well we all know that Panasonic are using Sony micro 43 sensors, so until Sony develops a new one, there will be no new sensor in Panasonic models.

We all also know that the size of the micro 43 sensor is more than big enough, and that the current Sony 20MP sensor is capable of impeccable image quality.

Still, a format will always be measured against what is offered by competitors. Sony are continuously developing 35mm sensors, and putting new camera models onto the market, in an effort to show the superiority of the oversized 35mm format. And you can't really blame Sony for focusing on sensor development for their own cameras.

Meanwhile, Panasonic has used its knowledge of digital displays to put the best EVF ever into the G9. Panasonic also seems to have great expertise when it comes to other parts that go into a digital camera, including also the optics for the lenses. Everything except the sensor itself.

So why is this? Is it really so difficult to produce a micro 43 sensor, that Panasonic must rely on their greatest competitor to produce this vital part? For a large electronics company like Panasonic, it seems weird to me that they're not able to produce this part themselves.

well as far as I know Pana has made sensors for 4/3 and m4/3 for years , both for Lumix and Olympus , until the Em5 with a Sony sensor . I'm pretty sure the Em1's is a Panasonic as well .

I find the Pana sensor on my Epl2 for example pretty weak in low light compared to the 16mp Sony's , but colours seem to be truer to life and transitions smoother .

old articles :

http://www.fourthirds-user.com/forum/entry.php?532-So-the-Olympus-OM-D-E-M5-sensor-isn-t-a-Panasonic-but-does-it-really-matter

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/10/olympus-om-d-em-1-sensor-is-made-by-panasonic-not-sony

razorfish wrote:

I believe this guy is on to something regarding the G9 and micro 43 development in general, from the perspective of someone considering various formats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOPaYdz9lw0

He is basically saying that the G9 seems extremely interesting, but he can't understand why they are using the same sensor as the GH5. Why no new sensor?

Well we all know that Panasonic are using Sony micro 43 sensors, so until Sony develops a new one, there will be no new sensor in Panasonic models.

We all also know that the size of the micro 43 sensor is more than big enough, and that the current Sony 20MP sensor is capable of impeccable image quality.

Still, a format will always be measured against what is offered by competitors. Sony are continuously developing 35mm sensors, and putting new camera models onto the market, in an effort to show the superiority of the oversized 35mm format. And you can't really blame Sony for focusing on sensor development for their own cameras.

Meanwhile, Panasonic has used its knowledge of digital displays to put the best EVF ever into the G9. Panasonic also seems to have great expertise when it comes to other parts that go into a digital camera, including also the optics for the lenses. Everything except the sensor itself.

So why is this? Is it really so difficult to produce a micro 43 sensor, that Panasonic must rely on their greatest competitor to produce this vital part? For a large electronics company like Panasonic, it seems weird to me that they're not able to produce this part themselves.

It could have something to do with this:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6562276845/panasonic-and-fujifilm-reveal-joint-sensor-offers-global-shutter

My guess is they are just trying to keep market share without increasing expenditures while this tech is being developed but I admit it is a bit of a wild guess.

Besides they probably have an alternative in Israel where the D850 sensors are produced. A fablab, if I am correct, owned for 49% by Panasonic.

jwilliams wrote:

Expect m43 sensor development to lag all other formats going forward. Sony makes both sensors and cameras. Sony does not make m43 cameras. So for FF, APSC and 1" sensors Sony has a dual incentive to invest in their development. They use them in their cameras and they also sell them to others. For m43 Sony has no use for them so while they will continue to produce them, do not expect them to throw the resources at their development like they do for the other 3 formats.

Seeing how close the RX10 MK4 sensor is to micro 43 sensors, I guess this development is already under way. This seems to me exactly why Panasonic should produce their own. Panasonic is one of the major Japanese electronics players, surely they'd be able to develop good sensors if they chose to invest in it.

https://www.fujirumors.com/development-wide-dynamic-range-global-shutter-technology-organic-photoconductive-film-image-sensor-panasonic/

This thread is surreal, you have an op stating that Panasonic does not produce its own sensors and uses Sony ones ( oh yeah ? ) , and then everybody chimes in spewing the same non sense .

108 wrote:

This thread is surreal, you have an op stating that Panasonic does not produce its own sensors and uses Sony ones ( oh yeah ? ) , and then everybody chimes in spewing the same non sense .

my bad, from this source it appears Panasonic has used a Sony sensor in its FZ1000 ....well that's about it

http://www.sensorgen.info/

razorfish wrote:

I believe this guy is on to something regarding the G9 and micro 43 development in general, from the perspective of someone considering various formats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOPaYdz9lw0

He is basically saying that the G9 seems extremely interesting, but he can't understand why they are using the same sensor as the GH5. Why no new sensor?

I guess H9 has a new Multi Aspect Ratio sensor

Well we all know that Panasonic are using Sony micro 43 sensors, so until Sony develops a new one, there will be no new sensor in Panasonic models.

We know nothing

We all also know that the size of the micro 43 sensor is more than big enough, and that the current Sony 20MP sensor is capable of impeccable image quality.

You want to say that 1" sensor (which is just a half of 43 sensor) with 20Mpx is darn good. This is very refreshing to know

Still, a format will always be measured against what is offered by competitors. Sony are continuously developing 35mm sensors, and putting new camera models onto the market, in an effort to show the superiority of the oversized 35mm format. And you can't really blame Sony for focusing on sensor development for their own cameras.

Stop fuming about superiority, get rid of inferiority. The biggest Sony sensor business is cellphones, Pana aims at automotive applications.

Meanwhile, Panasonic has used its knowledge of digital displays to put the best EVF ever into the G9. Panasonic also seems to have great expertise when it comes to other parts that go into a digital camera, including also the optics for the lenses. Everything except the sensor itself.

Panasonic and Sony use Epson panels for EVF, and maybe not just only Epson

So why is this? Is it really so difficult to produce a micro 43 sensor, that Panasonic must rely on their greatest competitor to produce this vital part? For a large electronics company like Panasonic, it seems weird to me that they're not able to produce this part themselves.

So, why is this? I/m waiting for your guess. Just as a hint, neither Pana no Sony or Oly produce their own shutter mechanism

Doesn't Nikon also use Sony sensors?

And it isn't an issue, unless it's an issue.  You are assuming it's an issue, but you've no basis for that assertion.

I personally would assume that at this point in the life cycle of sensors, which have become extremely efficient that turnaround for improvements is likely to be in the 12- to 18-month range.  I would think that a lot of R&D must go into the technology to make improvements at this point -- all the low hanging fruit has long been picked and consumed.

Then there's getting return on investment -- Panasonic and Olympus can't contract to have a new sensor put out every few months with tiny improvements or the manufacturing cost will never come down.  Once something is put into production, efficiencies in production will drive the price down considerably, but only if they produce it for a couple years.

Wasabi Bob wrote:

Everyone seems to be focused on why new sensors are not being developed. Many of these same people may not be aware that the image sensor literally gathers the “raw” data, and the final quality is largely determined by how that data is processed. If multiple cameras use the same sensor, than why don't they all look the same? In the LUMIX story, it's all about the technology in their VENUS engine.

If you research the number of advances that Panasonic made in this area, it’s amazing. All this talk about new sensors seems to be the latest version of pixel peeping – nit picking about minuscule issues that always seem to be part of some obscure scenarios. Abide by the basic rules of photography and you won’t have to depend on technology to bend the rules.

I feel that you have minimal comprehension of

a) just how much $$$ (and skill) it takes to develop sensors, and

b) the massive difference in camera output quality a newer, better sensor can make.

a) developing sensors is not like designing a chip. it involves not so much design, as a new process.. its chemistry, mask layers, composition and doping levels...not to mention access to a foundry which allows custom process development. You need scientists and research engineers and very deep pockets...  ie..designing a chip is child's play by comparison.

b) Panasonic can have Venus version 75 and it still cannot increase resolution, or lower sensor noise. .. ie, the maxim "garbage in, garbage out" applies to any and all types of processing.

regards

Kevin Barrett wrote:

https://www.fujirumors.com/development-wide-dynamic-range-global-shutter-technology-organic-photoconductive-film-image-sensor-panasonic/

It can do everything except get out of the lab.

Many factors are at work here, not just pure technology. To point out a few

1. Does Panasonic has the intellectual rights or coverage?

2. Developing a new sensor is expensive, does developing one have the appropriate ROI?

3. Consistency. Sony sensor manufacturing is their business. They excel in that. Can Panasonic match that?