Canon G1X Mark III on 17 Okt

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Photostyle Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Canon G1X Mark III on 17 Okt
OP Photostyle Contributing Member • Posts: 690
Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Photostyle wrote:

http://thenewcamera.com/canon-g1x-mark-iii-camera-coming-next-month/

The question come up if people will buy it with this lens, IMO it's a drawback if that lens is coming with that camera.

http://www.canonwatch.com/does-this-canon-patent-for-a-15-43mm-f2-4-lens-for-aps-c-sensors-refer-to-the-powershot-g1-x-mark-iii/

OzarkAggie Senior Member • Posts: 1,618
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?
2

A 24-70 with an APS-C sensor would be sweet.

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phototherapy Contributing Member • Posts: 954
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?
2

I rather have the old lens : 24 - 120mm, thats match more versatile, and is better then the Sony RX 100 V : 24 - 70mm, if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

Mark9473 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,736
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?
1

phototherapy wrote:

if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

It is impossible for the old lens to have the same 24-120 equivalent range when used on a larger sensor. It is also impossible for it to have a sufficiently large image circle to cover the larger sensor (look at a G1XII image in raw development with lens correction disabled). So I think your question is not a question at all.

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Mark

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phototherapy Contributing Member • Posts: 954
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

It is impossible for the old lens to have the same 24-120 equivalent range when used on a larger sensor. It is also impossible for it to have a sufficiently large image circle to cover the larger sensor (look at a G1XII image in raw development with lens correction disabled). So I think your question is not a question at all.

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Mark

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

Mark9473 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,736
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

phototherapy wrote:

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

It is impossible for the old lens to have the same 24-120 equivalent range when used on a larger sensor. It is also impossible for it to have a sufficiently large image circle to cover the larger sensor (look at a G1XII image in raw development with lens correction disabled). So I think your question is not a question at all.

-- hide signature --

Mark

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

It would make sense if they only use an area identical to the old 1.5" sensor. The crop factor would then remain at 1.92. But to then call it an APS-C sensor is pure marketing nonsense.

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Mark

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phototherapy Contributing Member • Posts: 954
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

It is impossible for the old lens to have the same 24-120 equivalent range when used on a larger sensor. It is also impossible for it to have a sufficiently large image circle to cover the larger sensor (look at a G1XII image in raw development with lens correction disabled). So I think your question is not a question at all.

-- hide signature --

Mark

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

It would make sense if they only use an area identical to the old 1.5" sensor. The crop factor would then remain at 1.92. But to then call it an APS-C sensor is pure marketing nonsense.

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Mark

I agree with you, to reduce cost Canon could use there own 24MP APS-C sensor with PDAF, and that's the goal I presume. maybe also 4K, but most of all I would like to see a good vieuw finder again, even if it make the camera bigger.

Tonkotsu Ramen
Tonkotsu Ramen Senior Member • Posts: 2,380
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?
2

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

Mark9473 wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

if the sensor is a APSC size instead of the old 1.5", can it be done with the old lens ?? thats the question isn't it !!!!

It is impossible for the old lens to have the same 24-120 equivalent range when used on a larger sensor. It is also impossible for it to have a sufficiently large image circle to cover the larger sensor (look at a G1XII image in raw development with lens correction disabled). So I think your question is not a question at all.

-- hide signature --

Mark

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

It would make sense if they only use an area identical to the old 1.5" sensor. The crop factor would then remain at 1.92. But to then call it an APS-C sensor is pure marketing nonsense.

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Mark

and.. who's doing that exactly?

justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 6,304
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

phototherapy wrote:

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

That makes the most sense to me. I don't see how they could make it work utilizing a full APS-C sensor. Either the lens will be too big, or the lens' zoom range will be too small. When Nikon made a (discontinued) APS-C compact, they resorted to a fixed 28mm-equivalent lens to keep the camera compact.

Samuel C Contributing Member • Posts: 599
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

justmeMN wrote:

phototherapy wrote:

What if Canon uses a APS-C sensor but does not use the whole sensor to mentain the same lens, it has been sugested by someone ? does that make any sence ?

That makes the most sense to me. I don't see how they could make it work utilizing a full APS-C sensor. Either the lens will be too big, or the lens' zoom range will be too small. When Nikon made a (discontinued) APS-C compact, they resorted to a fixed 28mm-equivalent lens to keep the camera compact.

It's also possible that they've used the last (coming up on) 4 years to create a lens that will be compact, fast, and still offer a useful zoom range for an APS-C sensor. I personally think they could get away with a larger lens. After all, how many people buy an M body, put the lens on, and use it essentially as a fixed lens camera? Maybe a DO element would do the trick.

OzarkAggie Senior Member • Posts: 1,618
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

I'm just considering what club members hang on their full frames. 5D 24-70, 6D 24-105.

So the 24-120 may be nice to have but if you have to sacrifice pixels and increase the crop factor I say forget it.

I use the original G1X for street, events, and generally wide open. (28 MM f2.8) It's great for that. So if the G doesn't measure up I'll go with DSLR. I really miss the ovf.

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Kharan
Kharan Senior Member • Posts: 1,394
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Samuel C wrote:

It's also possible that they've used the last (coming up on) 4 years to create a lens that will be compact, fast, and still offer a useful zoom range for an APS-C sensor. I personally think they could get away with a larger lens. After all, how many people buy an M body, put the lens on, and use it essentially as a fixed lens camera? Maybe a DO element would do the trick.

Aperture, focal length range, and image circle - pick two. It's unfortunately physically impossible to have all three things in a zoom lens, no matter the price, unless size and weight aren't considerations at all (I'm talking several kilos here in a thing larger than a wine jeroboam). A superzoom lens for a larger sensor needs to have less light gathering if it's to be reasonable in dimensions. A superzoom can be fast-ish and cover everything, but only for a smaller sensor (like the G3 X or RX10M4). A fast zoom can only have a limited range before things get out of hand (just compare a 16-50mm f/2.8 lens to a 70-200mm f/2.8 one) if it's meant for a larger image circle (sensor).

DO groups are only useful for telephoto lenses, they add nothing to short focal lengths.

One additional factor at play is the use of precission-molded aspherics. These can be found inside cameras like the G7 X, RX10 and in many cell phones. They're absolutely cost-prohibitive for ILC lenses though, because of volume and image circle diameter. They also mess bokeh up pretty bad. But the way in which they can correct aberrations is incredible, and allow for lenses with design goals that are simply ridiculous for larger formats, or require massive traditional elements (witness the Sigma Art series as a great example). These aren't to be confused with ground and cemented aspherics, which are the types more commonly used in APS-C and 35mm lenses.

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Samuel C Contributing Member • Posts: 599
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Kharan wrote:

Samuel C wrote:

It's also possible that they've used the last (coming up on) 4 years to create a lens that will be compact, fast, and still offer a useful zoom range for an APS-C sensor. I personally think they could get away with a larger lens. After all, how many people buy an M body, put the lens on, and use it essentially as a fixed lens camera? Maybe a DO element would do the trick.

Aperture, focal length range, and image circle - pick two. It's unfortunately physically impossible to have all three things in a zoom lens, no matter the price, unless size and weight aren't considerations at all (I'm talking several kilos here in a thing larger than a wine jeroboam). A superzoom lens for a larger sensor needs to have less light gathering if it's to be reasonable in dimensions. A superzoom can be fast-ish and cover everything, but only for a smaller sensor (like the G3 X or RX10M4). A fast zoom can only have a limited range before things get out of hand (just compare a 16-50mm f/2.8 lens to a 70-200mm f/2.8 one) if it's meant for a larger image circle (sensor).

DO groups are only useful for telephoto lenses, they add nothing to short focal lengths.

One additional factor at play is the use of precission-molded aspherics. These can be found inside cameras like the G7 X, RX10 and in many cell phones. They're absolutely cost-prohibitive for ILC lenses though, because of volume and image circle diameter. They also mess bokeh up pretty bad. But the way in which they can correct aberrations is incredible, and allow for lenses with design goals that are simply ridiculous for larger formats, or require massive traditional elements (witness the Sigma Art series as a great example). These aren't to be confused with ground and cemented aspherics, which are the types more commonly used in APS-C and 35mm lenses.

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"Chase the light around the world
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In the available light" - Rush, 'Available Light'

Going from a 1.9 crop to a 1.6 crop is not a huge leap and 5X is not a superzoom.  They could use a larger lens or reduce the top end of the focal length, but I don't think utilizing a full APS-C sensor is outside the realm of possibility.  We'll see soon.

Kharan
Kharan Senior Member • Posts: 1,394
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Samuel C wrote:

Going from a 1.9 crop to a 1.6 crop is not a huge leap and 5X is not a superzoom. They could use a larger lens or reduce the top end of the focal length, but I don't think utilizing a full APS-C sensor is outside the realm of possibility. We'll see soon.

5x is still quite a bit. The G1 XII has a 16mm entrance pupil. To achieve the same aperture and focal length on a Canon APS-C sensor would now require a 19.2mm entrance pupil, plus the additional 10mm of focal length (it typically means that the cams must move at least 10mm farther) plus the aberration correction at the edges, which typically means that the additional size of the lens is squared (it'd need to grow at least a centimeter in each direction, probably more to acommodate the larger cams, stabilization and AF motors).

Basically, if Canon are aiming for a pocket camera with a 1.6 crop sensor, 15-75mm f/2-3.9 lens, it'll have garbage IQ away from the center - with out current technological level. Otherwise, they could increase the size of the retracted lens, or reduce the focal range it covers. There isn't any way to get around this unless Canon plan to introduce a new and revolutionary technology (like a curved sensor or a lens element that changes its form in an orderly fashion).

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Samuel C Contributing Member • Posts: 599
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?
2

Kharan wrote:

Samuel C wrote:

Going from a 1.9 crop to a 1.6 crop is not a huge leap and 5X is not a superzoom. They could use a larger lens or reduce the top end of the focal length, but I don't think utilizing a full APS-C sensor is outside the realm of possibility. We'll see soon.

5x is still quite a bit. The G1 XII has a 16mm entrance pupil. To achieve the same aperture and focal length on a Canon APS-C sensor would now require a 19.2mm entrance pupil, plus the additional 10mm of focal length (it typically means that the cams must move at least 10mm farther) plus the aberration correction at the edges, which typically means that the additional size of the lens is squared (it'd need to grow at least a centimeter in each direction, probably more to acommodate the larger cams, stabilization and AF motors).

Basically, if Canon are aiming for a pocket camera

No, they are not aiming for this.  The G1 X and Mark II were never pocket cameras.  That's the G7 X.  Canon is not afraid to make large fixed lens cameras.  There's no reason to think Canon will try to keep the Mark III the same size.  I think the following two scenarios are equally possible:  utilize only part of the sensor while maintaining a similar form factor and 5X, utilize entire sensor with larger 5X lens.  And even a third, use whole sensor, keep form factor, reduce zoom.  All of this is pointless speculation.  Can't wait for specs to put an end to this thread.

with a 1.6 crop sensor, 15-75mm f/2-3.9 lens, it'll have garbage IQ away from the center - with out current technological level. Otherwise, they could increase the size of the retracted lens, or reduce the focal range it covers. There isn't any way to get around this unless Canon plan to introduce a new and revolutionary technology (like a curved sensor or a lens element that changes its form in an orderly fashion).

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KeepCalm Senior Member • Posts: 1,618
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Samuel C wrote:

No, they are not aiming for this. The G1 X and Mark II were never pocket cameras. That's the G7 X. Canon is not afraid to make large fixed lens cameras.

Unfortunately the reviewers are not afraid to mock the size of the camera without allowing for the sensor size. Difficult area for Canon to get it right.

Calling this camera a Powershot G has been a major marketing mistake as it gets linked in people's minds as a compact. We have had the reverse where the G1X III potentially having an aps-c sensor kicked off the idea amongst people who should have known better that the other G's would have this. If the brand dedicated rumour sites get confused over what sort of camera this is what hope the general public or reviewers.

Given the serious world wide shortage of letters available to these companies for camera designation we will have to live with this.The best change to this camera to kick off sales would be to give it a clear classification outside of the melee of Powershot G's.

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OzarkAggie Senior Member • Posts: 1,618
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

What they should have done is badge the 1" Powershots as "S" class instead of cluttering up the G class. Might be why the CEO got bumped, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.

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justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 6,304
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

Samuel C wrote: All of this is pointless speculation. Can't wait for specs to put an end to this thread.

Agreed. This camera is Canon's most mysterious upgrade.

Samuel C Contributing Member • Posts: 599
Re: Will it sell if it come with this lens ?

KeepCalm wrote:

Samuel C wrote:

No, they are not aiming for this. The G1 X and Mark II were never pocket cameras. That's the G7 X. Canon is not afraid to make large fixed lens cameras.

Unfortunately the reviewers are not afraid to mock the size of the camera without allowing for the sensor size. Difficult area for Canon to get it right.

The reviewers don't need a good reason to post gut reactions before glancing at a manual or spending more than an hour with a camera. Guys like Kai are so impressed with themselves that they are going to phone it in whether it's a good idea or not.

Calling this camera a Powershot G has been a major marketing mistake as it gets linked in people's minds as a compact.

But that's what it is. It's going to be smaller than a similarly equipped ILC because it will have a collapsing lens.

We have had the reverse where the G1X III potentially having an aps-c sensor kicked off the idea amongst people who should have known better that the other G's would have this. If the brand dedicated rumour sites get confused over what sort of camera this is what hope the general public or reviewers.

I don't think they're confused and I don't think it would matter if they were.

Given the serious world wide shortage of letters available to these companies for camera designation we will have to live with this.The best change to this camera to kick off sales would be to give it a clear classification outside of the melee of Powershot G's.

But they consolidated for once. The confusion was making SX and ELPH with numbers that were neither in any kind of order not had any actual meaning. The new G X series is the closest they've come to doing anything with compact model numbers that mean anything. Model confusion isn't the issue. Canon makes all sizes of fixed lens cameras and whether they fit in a pocket or not is unimportant to naming conventions.

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