Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Started Sep 10, 2017 | Discussions
Sirandar
Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Just finished posting a batch of photos .... I go to view them in Library and they look like crap.

I think "How could I have thought those settings do those images justice?". I begin removing them from my 5 star collection. Then I notice they look great in Develop mode.

I have a moment of absolute horror as I have many pictures I have put a lot of work into over many years.

I think "How could develop mode and library mode display pictures differently?"

Then I do some very quick Internet research and find out why .... they use different colour spaces.

I ask myself why Adobe would design Lightoom this way? Maybe there is a good reason that eludes me.

I ask myself how much work I am going to have to do because without warning my profiles got out of sync probably at last update of Lightroom.

Post Note .......  no big deal .... somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever.  Probably wasn't even Adobe's update as the dates don't match.

However I doubt that I am the first to have this experience.

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 6,263
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
3

Sirandar wrote:

Just finished posting a batch of photos .... I go to view them in Library and they look like crap.

I think "How could I have thought those settings do those images justice?". I begin removing them from my 5 star collection. Then I notice they look great in Develop mode.

I have a moment of absolute horror as I have many pictures I have put a lot of work into over many years.

I think "How could develop mode and library mode display pictures differently?"

Then I do some very quick Internet research and find out why .... they use different colour spaces.

I ask myself why Adobe would design Lightoom this way? Maybe there is a good reason that eludes me.

There's a very practical reason, whether it's a "good" reason is a matter of opinion!

In Develop module, the image is in ProPhoto RGB, and that is converted to the monitor colour space in the normal colour-management way for display.

In Library module, for speed images are saved as jpeg previews in Adobe RGB, and it's the jpeg that is displayed. I'm guessing, but I expect the reason the previews are stored in Adobe RGB is because they are stored 8-bit. The wider the colour space, the larger the step between adjacent levels (say, when the red value is increased or decreased by 1). This doesn't matter if the image is in 16-bits (or even the 12-14 bits of most raw files) as the step size is small.  However in 8-bits, there's a chance of visible banding being seen in some images. Hence, if images are stored as (8-bit) jpegs as LR previews are, then Adobe RGB may be a better choice than ProPhoto RGB.

As I say, that's just my guess as to why they do that.

Of course, it won't matter much when viewed on a monitor whose colour gamut is entirely within Adobe RGB, as very very little difference should be seen. However, wide-gamut monitors are often a bit wider than Adobe RGB, especially red and blue, so the difference may be visible on images with highly-saturated colours.

I ask myself how much work I am going to have to do because without warning my profiles got out of sync probably at last update of Lightroom.

Post Note ....... no big deal .... somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever. Probably wasn't even Adobe's update as the dates don't match.

However I doubt that I am the first to have this experience.

Not sure what you mean by that. What do you mean by "without warning my profiles got out of sync " and "somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever"?

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB automatically, so no no need ever to set ProPhoto RGB in Lightroom (as opposed to Photoshop, where one needs to set the Working Space).  I'm probably missing something here.

If your monitor is correctly profiled then you don't need to set any colour space except for:

  • Exporting
  • Printing
  • Soft-proofing

Exporting a TIF might be to ProPhoto RGB, but printing and soft-proofing would normally refer to a printer profile (or perhaps Adobe RGB or sRGB for soft proofing).

I may be missing something about your workflow.

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Simon

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Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
1

Sirandar wrote:

Just finished posting a batch of photos .... I go to view them in Library and they look like crap.

That's really user error.

I think "How could I have thought those settings do those images justice?". I begin removing them from my 5 star collection. Then I notice they look great in Develop mode.

I have a moment of absolute horror as I have many pictures I have put a lot of work into over many years.

I think "How could develop mode and library mode display pictures differently?"

They use a different preview architecture, always view in Develop at 1:1 for the most accurate previews of color and tone.

Then I do some very quick Internet research and find out why .... they use different colour spaces.

Speed. It's not just color space, it's the data!

I ask myself why Adobe would design Lightoom this way? Maybe there is a good reason that eludes me.

I ask myself how much work I am going to have to do because without warning my profiles got out of sync probably at last update of Lightroom.

They are not out of sync.

Post Note ....... no big deal .... somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever.

What?

Probably wasn't even Adobe's update as the dates don't match.

What doesn't match between say Develop and anything color managed viewed at the same, proper zoom ratio?

However I doubt that I am the first to have this experience.

No.

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Andrew Rodney
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The Digital Dog
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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
1

Simon Garrett wrote:

Sirandar wrote:

Just finished posting a batch of photos .... I go to view them in Library and they look like crap.

I think "How could I have thought those settings do those images justice?". I begin removing them from my 5 star collection. Then I notice they look great in Develop mode.

I have a moment of absolute horror as I have many pictures I have put a lot of work into over many years.

I think "How could develop mode and library mode display pictures differently?"

Then I do some very quick Internet research and find out why .... they use different colour spaces.

I ask myself why Adobe would design Lightoom this way? Maybe there is a good reason that eludes me.

There's a very practical reason, whether it's a "good" reason is a matter of opinion!

In Develop module, the image is in ProPhoto RGB, and that is converted to the monitor colour space in the normal colour-management way for display.

Close not quite. Yes in terms of the primaries and thus gamut. Not the same TRC. IF you wish to see ProPhoto RGB in terms of numbers, histogram etc, you have to soft proof and select that color space.

In Library module, for speed images are saved as jpeg previews in Adobe RGB, and it's the jpeg that is displayed. I'm guessing, but I expect the reason the previews are stored in Adobe RGB is because they are stored 8-bit.

Correct. Develop is totally different in terms of the data used and how.

Previews in Develop are working in its internal color space, which is Linear encoded "ProPhoto" (RGB primaries). In terms of color gamut, Linear ProPhoto, ProPhoto RGB, and Melissa RGB all have the same color gamut because they use the same set of RGB primaries from ProPhoto RGB. The difference between them is the encoding of the image values (e.g., linear encoding, 1.8 encoding, and 2.2 encoding, respectively). The differences in this encoding does not affect image appearance in previews. So, within the Develop module, how our images appear in Linear ProPhoto, regular ProPhoto, and Melissa RGB are all correct and all the same and for all files: raw, jpeg, tiff, dng, etc. The facts are however, in Develop, the previews are the unnamed internal color space.The Library previews are Adobe RGB (1998), because the previews are stored as JPEGs. JPEGs are 8-bit, inappropriate for a wide gamut color space like Linear ProPhoto, ProPhoto RGB, and Melissa RGB. Using an intermediate-sized color gamut as found in Adobe RGB (1998), avoids artifacts, while providing a larger gamut than sRGB. Another reason why the LR user might consider a wide gamut display that closely approaches or exceeds Adobe RGB (1998).The Develop module doesn't have quantization problems because the image rendering isn't using JPEGs. It is instead performed on the fly using the original image data (e.g., a raw file), using higher internal precision (at least 16 bits).Within the Develop module, if a user has turns on soft proofing, the gamut is limited to whatever ICC profile the user has chosen for soft proofing.

The wider the colour space, the larger the step between adjacent levels (say, when the red value is increased or decreased by 1). This doesn't matter if the image is in 16-bits (or even the 12-14 bits of most raw files) as the step size is small. However in 8-bits, there's a chance of visible banding being seen in some images. Hence, if images are stored as (8-bit) jpegs as LR previews are, then Adobe RGB may be a better choice than ProPhoto RGB.

As I say, that's just my guess as to why they do that.

Of course, it won't matter much when viewed on a monitor whose colour gamut is entirely within Adobe RGB, as very very little difference should be seen. However, wide-gamut monitors are often a bit wider than Adobe RGB, especially red and blue, so the difference may be visible on images with highly-saturated colours.

I ask myself how much work I am going to have to do because without warning my profiles got out of sync probably at last update of Lightroom.

Post Note ....... no big deal .... somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever. Probably wasn't even Adobe's update as the dates don't match.

However I doubt that I am the first to have this experience.

Not sure what you mean by that. What do you mean by "without warning my profiles got out of sync " and "somehow PhotoproRGB disappeared from colour management during a update or whatever"?

Lightroom uses ProPhoto RGB automatically, so no no need ever to set ProPhoto RGB in Lightroom (as opposed to Photoshop, where one needs to set the Working Space). I'm probably missing something here.

If your monitor is correctly profiled then you don't need to set any colour space except for:

  • Exporting
  • Printing
  • Soft-proofing

Exporting a TIF might be to ProPhoto RGB, but printing and soft-proofing would normally refer to a printer profile (or perhaps Adobe RGB or sRGB for soft proofing).

I may be missing something about your workflow.

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Simon

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Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Hi Simon

Thanks for your detailed response.

I use a Samsung Monitor with very accurate and pleasing colour when it is calibrated ....which it is.

Here is the chain of events if you are interested:

Some time last week I got a pile of updates and I moved some of the my DVi and HDMI connections of my monitor.  I noticed no issues

Yesterday I tagged and post processed a pile of images in Lightroom Develop mode ....  Again I noticed no issues probably because I didn't check them in Library mode.

Later I looked at them in Library mode and was horrified by how ugly they were.  Then I noticed they looked fine in Develop mode.  A played around and no amount of opening and closing and rebooting fixed.

I searched web and practically the  first hit reminded me that Library mode uses whatever color scheme Win7 uses.

I entered color management and noticed that the strange color profile provided by Samsung was the only one present and that USER profile checkbox was unchecked.

I checked the box that allows changes and deleted this Samsung profile and loaded up PhotoproRGB and restarted Lightroom.

All was then well and all my images were as I chose to make them.

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Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

On my system at least, the colour profile chosen in Windows 7 colour management applet determines how pictures look in Lightroom Library Module but not Develop.

I simply deleted the ICxxxxxxx Samsung monitor profile that somehow got selected and activated and loaded up PhotoProRGB instead and all is well

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
1

Sirandar wrote:

On my system at least, the colour profile chosen in Windows 7 colour management applet determines how pictures look in Lightroom Library Module but not Develop.

No both, or your display profile is toasted.

I simply deleted the ICxxxxxxx Samsung monitor profile that somehow got selected and activated and loaded up PhotoProRGB instead and all is well

That was the first mistake. You would never load ProPhoto RGB for use as a display profile.

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Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

digidog wrote:

Sirandar wrote:

On my system at least, the colour profile chosen in Windows 7 colour management applet determines how pictures look in Lightroom Library Module but not Develop.

No both, or your display profile is toasted.

I simply deleted the ICxxxxxxx Samsung monitor profile that somehow got selected and activated and loaded up PhotoProRGB instead and all is well

That was the first mistake. You would never load ProPhoto RGB for use as a display profile.

I am not sure what you are talking about  ..... PhotoproRGB is the only colour space I would ever use  .......  As long as you don't try to use the Windows File manager to view photos it works very well.  Use a app that supports photoproRGB and it works fine.

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Sirandar wrote:

digidog wrote:

Sirandar wrote:

On my system at least, the colour profile chosen in Windows 7 colour management applet determines how pictures look in Lightroom Library Module but not Develop.

No both, or your display profile is toasted.

I simply deleted the ICxxxxxxx Samsung monitor profile that somehow got selected and activated and loaded up PhotoProRGB instead and all is well

That was the first mistake. You would never load ProPhoto RGB for use as a display profile.

I am not sure what you are talking about ..... PhotoproRGB is the only colour space I would ever use .......

That is an RGB working space and has nothing to do with the display. You have a display profile for that. The two work together.

As long as you don't try to use the Windows File manager to view photos it works very well.

Well isn't necessarily correct.

Use a app that supports photoproRGB and it works fine.

All ICC aware applications do. And any other color space.

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Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

LOL .... We must be in some kind of strange parellel universe ......

What you say may indeed be accurate  ........  but my images look exactly how I want them to look as long as I have PhotoproRGB selected as the Win7 color profile and the app supports it.  I have 3 monitors of various quality connected to my PC and my images look the same on all of them considering their limitations.  When I view them on my laptop they also look right.

When I share them my share process make them look how I intended.

Perhaps yours is a better way but my way works for its intended purpose.

How would you do it?

Years ago I initially tried messing with the provided colour profile from Samsung and the results were not what I desired.  I came to my current solution.

Many video cards later I still have the same monitor because quite frankly it is fantastic.  I have 2 more monitors connected now and my images look comparable on all three as long as all three are calibrated properly.

Perhaps with my current video card I might get something better another way but I doubt it.

I have none on the problems of banding, color casting, color gamma strangeness that I would associate with the doom and gloom you describe as my situation.

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(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Sirandar wrote:

LOL .... We must be in some kind of strange parellel universe ......

Indeed!

What you say may indeed be accurate ........ but my images look exactly how I want them to look as long as I have PhotoproRGB selected as the Win7 color profile and the app supports it. I have 3 monitors of various quality connected to my PC and my images look the same on all of them considering their limitations. When I view them on my laptop they also look right.

When I share them my share process make them look how I intended.

Perhaps yours is a better way but my way works for its intended purpose.

How would you do it?

Go to my website.

Years ago I initially tried messing with the provided colour profile from Samsung and the results were not what I desired. I came to my current solution.

Many video cards later I still have the same monitor because quite frankly it is fantastic. I have 2 more monitors connected now and my images look comparable on all three as long as all three are calibrated properly.

Perhaps with my current video card I might get something better another way but I doubt it.

I have none on the problems of banding, color casting, color gamma strangeness that I would associate with the doom and gloom you describe as my situation.

Your text suggests otherwise.

Zero problems on this end.

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Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 6,263
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
1

Sirandar wrote:

Hi Simon

Thanks for your detailed response.

I use a Samsung Monitor with very accurate and pleasing colour when it is calibrated ....which it is.

Here is the chain of events if you are interested:

Some time last week I got a pile of updates and I moved some of the my DVi and HDMI connections of my monitor. I noticed no issues

Yesterday I tagged and post processed a pile of images in Lightroom Develop mode .... Again I noticed no issues probably because I didn't check them in Library mode.

Later I looked at them in Library mode and was horrified by how ugly they were. Then I noticed they looked fine in Develop mode. A played around and no amount of opening and closing and rebooting fixed.

I searched web and practically the first hit reminded me that Library mode uses whatever color scheme Win7 uses.

No I don't think so. Can you give me the link you found that says this?

The Windows colour scheme is a set of colours used as default in the desktop task bar, in window title bars and so on.  Apart from the Lightroom title bar, Lightroom doesn't use any Windows colour scheme colours.  If by "colour scheme" you meant "colour space" - Windows doesn't use a colour space.  Windows itself (desktop, colour scheme colours etc) isn't colour managed.

I entered color management and noticed that the strange color profile provided by Samsung was the only one present and that USER profile checkbox was unchecked.

I'm not sure what's happening here. How did you calibrate and profile the monitor? I mean: what calibration device (Spyder, i1, colormunki etc) and what software did you use?  I can't find a "USER profile checkbox" in Control Panel - do you mean "Use my settings for this device"?

You can't calibrate/profile by eye: you need a hardware calibration tool. You can very roughly calibrate white point and TRC (tone response curve) but this has nothing to do with colour space.

After calibrating and profiling, when you go into Control Panel -> Colour Management you should see something like this:

The first line with "(default)" after it is the profile currently used by Windows (and in my case created by Eizo ColorNavigator using an i1 Dispaly Pro).

However, you shouldn't have to alter anything in Control Panel for colour. The calibration/profiling software makes all the necessary settings.

I checked the box that allows changes and deleted this Samsung profile and loaded up PhotoproRGB and restarted Lightroom.

This makes no sense to me! You don't need to "load up ProPhoto RGB" anywhere in Lightroom. Lightroom doesn't need to be told to use ProPhoto.

All was then well and all my images were as I chose to make them.

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Simon

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Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Simon Garrett wrote:

Sirandar wrote:

Hi Simon

Thanks for your detailed response.

I use a Samsung Monitor with very accurate and pleasing colour when it is calibrated ....which it is.

Here is the chain of events if you are interested:

Some time last week I got a pile of updates and I moved some of the my DVi and HDMI connections of my monitor. I noticed no issues

Yesterday I tagged and post processed a pile of images in Lightroom Develop mode .... Again I noticed no issues probably because I didn't check them in Library mode.

Later I looked at them in Library mode and was horrified by how ugly they were. Then I noticed they looked fine in Develop mode. A played around and no amount of opening and closing and rebooting fixed.

I searched web and practically the first hit reminded me that Library mode uses whatever color scheme Win7 uses.

No I don't think so. Can you give me the link you found that says this?

The Windows colour scheme is a set of colours used as default in the desktop task bar, in window title bars and so on. Apart from the Lightroom title bar, Lightroom doesn't use any Windows colour scheme colours. If by "colour scheme" you meant "colour space" - Windows doesn't use a colour space. Windows itself (desktop, colour scheme colours etc) isn't colour managed.

I entered color management and noticed that the strange color profile provided by Samsung was the only one present and that USER profile checkbox was unchecked.

I'm not sure what's happening here. How did you calibrate and profile the monitor? I mean: what calibration device (Spyder, i1, colormunki etc) and what software did you use? I can't find a "USER profile checkbox" in Control Panel - do you mean "Use my settings for this device"?

You can't calibrate/profile by eye: you need a hardware calibration tool. You can very roughly calibrate white point and TRC (tone response curve) but this has nothing to do with colour space.

After calibrating and profiling, when you go into Control Panel -> Colour Management you should see something like this:

The first line with "(default)" after it is the profile currently used by Windows (and in my case created by Eizo ColorNavigator using an i1 Dispaly Pro).

However, you shouldn't have to alter anything in Control Panel for colour. The calibration/profiling software makes all the necessary settings.

I checked the box that allows changes and deleted this Samsung profile and loaded up PhotoproRGB and restarted Lightroom.

This makes no sense to me! You don't need to "load up ProPhoto RGB" anywhere in Lightroom. Lightroom doesn't need to be told to use ProPhoto.

Indeed! I tried to point this fact out but it fell on deaf ears. 🤣

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Andrew Rodney
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The Digital Dog
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Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Ahhhhhhhhh  ....... I finally get why it seems I am in a different universe than you and digidog.

I calibrated the monitor I use for photography almost 7 years ago by eye using a web applet designed to to that (I still use it).  I just checked it again and it is still close enough.

Since my monitor is calibrated using the built in controls, thats the only reason I can select photoproRGB in Win7 and have it work.

My old Sam Syncmaster 275t was one of the few panels you could calibrate decently. I dread the day it fails.

Interestingly I recently bought an AOC monitor because it had a nice panel and loaded up a few of my images I know are colourspace sensitive  .... looked fine so I didn't even bother to calibrate.  I checked my laptop which I also bought because it has a good panel  ..... it was fine too and on that device there is not a single profile in the Win10 colour management applet  .... it is empty  ..... but it still works fine.

Perhaps it is time to invest in a color management device  ...... any recommendations for something just good enough for the job?

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 6,263
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?
1

Sirandar wrote:

Ahhhhhhhhh ....... I finally get why it seems I am in a different universe than you and digidog.

I calibrated the monitor I use for photography almost 7 years ago by eye using a web applet designed to to that (I still use it). I just checked it again and it is still close enough.

Since my monitor is calibrated using the built in controls, thats the only reason I can select photoproRGB in Win7 and have it work.

My old Sam Syncmaster 275t was one of the few panels you could calibrate decently. I dread the day it fails.

Interestingly I recently bought an AOC monitor because it had a nice panel and loaded up a few of my images I know are colourspace sensitive .... looked fine so I didn't even bother to calibrate. I checked my laptop which I also bought because it has a good panel ..... it was fine too and on that device there is not a single profile in the Win10 colour management applet .... it is empty ..... but it still works fine.

Perhaps it is time to invest in a color management device ...... any recommendations for something just good enough for the job?

I use the i1 Display Pro.  The Colormunki Display is, despite the name, virtually the same device but slugged to make it slower and hence is cheaper.  Both are made by xrite.

I have no direct experience of other current devices, but reviews suggest that the xrite devices are more consistent than Spyder devices.

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Simon

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Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Sirandar wrote:

Ahhhhhhhhh ....... I finally get why it seems I am in a different universe than you and digidog.

I calibrated the monitor I use for photography almost 7 years ago by eye using a web applet designed to to that (I still use it). I just checked it again and it is still close enough.

IF you didn't measure it, you really can't say that.

Since my monitor is calibrated using the built in controls, thats the only reason I can select photoproRGB in Win7 and have it work.

Calibrated to what?

My old Sam Syncmaster 275t was one of the few panels you could calibrate decently. I dread the day it fails.

Interestingly I recently bought an AOC monitor because it had a nice panel and loaded up a few of my images I know are colourspace sensitive .... looked fine so I didn't even bother to calibrate. I checked my laptop which I also bought because it has a good panel ..... it was fine too and on that device there is not a single profile in the Win10 colour management applet .... it is empty ..... but it still works fine.

Perhaps it is time to invest in a color management device ...... any recommendations for something just good enough for the job?

X-rite i1 Display Pro.

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Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Sirandar
OP Sirandar Regular Member • Posts: 445
Re: Lightroom ... Develop and Library use different colour spaces"? What was Adobe thinking?

Hi Digidog and Simon

Thanks for your advice ......  seems like the cost of admission is 300$ where I am.

I have much more compelling ways to spend 300$ right now.

And Digidog .... your are indeed correct that I didn't measure it so I don't know. Do I care  ... not really

In the end I can make my images look the way I want without any issues that annoy me.

Also, I don't waste much of my energy worrying about sharing my work anymore.  I know my images are worthless and only have the value I give them and that is more than enough.

The market even for looking at photos for free is supersaturated.  The only photographers I see making a go of it are those shooting weddings and vanity pics in parks .....  its hard to even watch what they have to do for their customers but you probably get used to it.

Ironically I travel quite a bit and have contributed many atrocious cell phone pics to Google Maps  .....  Google says I have 200K hits for these pics, but they may be misrepresenting for their own reasons.  If I took my best pics and posted them on 500px I might get 1000 looks if I staggered and staged their appearance.

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