Getting Even Closer - Macro for Oly EM5?

So, my FOTGA extension tubes arrived today, and it certainly gives a bit more magnification for the 60mm macro. Works a treat.

However, I went to give it a try with the MC-14 TC, and it doesn't quite fit.

Thankfully, it was only £20 and I can still use them, so it's not the end of the world. But can anyone recommend an extension tube (similarly priced, with AF support) that will fit the MC-14? Ideally a direct purchase link would be good (Amazon etc).

Sadly neither fits. There's a thread (www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58208072) where they talk extensively about this...

I've ordered a Pixco one from eBay, rather than get an angle grinder out.

Out of interest, how much can you stack up extension tubes? E.g, could I have

Body + FOTGA 16mm + FOTGA 10mm + Pixco 16mm + Pixco 10mm + MC-14 + MZ 60mm lens

Or would that be insane?

Hello!

52mm of extension on a 60mm 1:1 lens plus 1.4xTC will not give you THAT much magnification (before factoring in the FOV MFT bodies give; something you need to apply to your native 1:1 as well to maintain the relation to where you started from). To take your 60mm from 1:1 to 2:1 you need 60mm of extension alone...

Tubes work the same as a bellows - only in a fixed, more sturdy but less flexible way. Check the Nikon PB6 and it's ad-on extender to see what lenghts are doable/needed depending on the lens used.

You could go the same length witb tubes. In the end, your working distance will end up within the lens' front element, meaning that you won't be able to achieve focus any more (depending on the lens, sooner or later). Adding a TC helps to prolong this a bit, because like I allready mentioned 1:1 with a 1.4x TC will give you the working distance of 1:1 without TC multilpied by 1.4 (so a bit further away).

I tried shooting in the field with up to 10:1 (using my Nikon 19/2.8 from the Multiphot on a bellows/tubes setup) but found it almost impossible for living critters. My personal sweet spot for non-tripod macro happens to be between 4:1 and 2:1.

Best,

Alex

Webreaper wrote:

But we want to see if she can get even closer, maybe getting full frame pictures of the miniature orchid flowers. The question is, is there a macro available that will fit the Olympus body with even more magnification? And if not, what other options do I have?

I use achromatic close-up lenses ("achromats") like the Raynox 250 on small sensor bridge, micro four thirds and APS-C cameras.

1-2mm is a very small subject indeed. I don't tackle botanical subjects that small but I do occasionally capture invertebrates of that size, such as this red mite, the body of which was about 1mm long, and this springtail, the body plus head being about 2mm long. (They were both captured with a small sensor bridge camera, but I do the same sort of thing with micro four thirds cameras.)

I generally use my close-up lenses on tele-zoom lenses, but they also work on macro lenses. Here are some measurements I just did for scene widths that can be captured with a micro four thirds camera using close-up lenses on a Panasonic 45-175 tele-zoom and on an Olympus 60mm macro.

Working distances may be larger using a tele-zoom. For example, using the Raynox 250 on the Olympus 60mm macro to capture a scene width of 13mm the working distance was around 40mm. Using the Raynox 250 on the 45-175, the working distance was around 115mm.

This probably matters more for invertebrates, although with subjects (of any type) as small as 1-2mm you might have trouble getting enough light onto the subject. For example, with a scene width of 7mm using the MSN-202 on the 60mm macro the working distance was around 15mm. It was around 30mm with the MSN-202 on the 45-175 and around 50mm with two Raynox 250s stacked on the 45-175.

I have no choice about using close-up lenses on my small sensor bridge cameras, but especially for working beyond 1:1 I use close-up lenses on tele-zooms in preference to using macro lenses on my micro four thirds and APS-C cameras. This is because I can get a range of magnifications by changing close-up lenses without having to open the camera up to pollen, dust etc out in the field. Also, I can use auto-focus without the lens hunting for focus.

I get an additional benefit of using close-up lenses on the 45-175, which is that I can change magnification without moving the camera since the 45-175 does not extend when it zooms. This is particularly helpful for higher magnification work, both for much more effective and faster subject acquisition (zoom out to find the subject, then zoom in on it) and also letting me change the magnification/framing back and forth from shot to shot, which I do quite a lot.

Thanks, this is awesome info and will be really useful once I've digested and understood it.

Light isn't too much of a problem, we have a Metz ring flash, and I'm thinking of getting one or two of the highly rated Manfrotto LED subject lights, to boost it. With black card behind it's usually easy to get the subject and colours to pop.

I'm still tempted by the 5x lens mentioned earlier in the thread (forget the name) as for tiny botanical subjects the focal length isn't an issue. As you say, for invertebrates it's more challenging, but at least with the extension tubes and (when it fits) the MC-14, we've got some options to play with!

Will try and post some results to the thread if they're worth posting!

That's just the same as shooting raw and cropping after the fact though, right?

That's really interesting! Thanks for the link.

We don't tend to use RAW that much - for my wife's website (www.pumpkinbeth.com) and the work she does for publications, JPEG fine is enough. So maybe that's a good idea - we'll give it a try.

Isn't the Olympus a 1:1 Macro?  So should be able to get pretty good magnification, but sounds like you want higher.

For the budget minded and amazing magnification options take a look at a bellows set up.  I use it on my EM5 and can get some amazing shots.  Downside is it obviously not handhold able and a bit cumbersome but for quality magnification I love mine.

A used Canon or Minolta or other bellows on THE auction site = probably  $35-50

I use old enlarger lenses, get a good quality 6 element lens (Nikkor, Fuji, Rodenstock, Schneider) and pick your focal length (50mm probably the most common) = $50 - $150 depending

some widgets to mount them all together (FD to MFT adaptor on one end, M39 adapter for the lens side) = $35

A good tripod (assuming you have)

So for maybe $150 (or less with good shopping) you have a cool bellows set up which can be fun to do a bunch of stuff on.

May not be what you are looking for if you want hand held, but an interesting option for indoor and outdoor stationary shots, like flowers and opens up a whole new level of magnification.

And other options have all been discussed as well like extension tubes and close up filters.

Good luck and have fun shooting.

Hello!

The faster shutter speed you mentiones has nothing to do with freezing motion in a flash exposure - the shutter spees with flash only controls the amount of ambient light that "invades" your shot. To block out brutal sunlight you need fast shutter speeds. The faster the shutter speed, the darker your backgrounds (not lit by the flash) tend to get depending in the amhient light.

The ONLY thing that controls the amount of frozen motion is the shutter duration (usually longer at higher power, shorter at lower power).

To make things complete, the exposure itself in a flash image (not changing ISO) is controlled via the aperture setting.

Best,

Alex

SiFu wrote:

Hello!

The faster shutter speed you mentiones has nothing to do with freezing motion in a flash exposure - the shutter spees with flash only controls the amount of ambient light that "invades" your shot. To block out brutal sunlight you need fast shutter speeds. The faster the shutter speed, the darker your backgrounds (not lit by the flash) tend to get depending in the amhient light.

The ONLY thing that controls the amount of frozen motion is the shutter duration (usually longer at higher power, shorter at lower power).

Good points, but I think there is a typo here. I imagine you meant "The ONLY thing that controls the amount of frozen motion is the flash duration".

This is the case as long as the flash is the dominant source of illumination, in which case the flash duration is the effective shutter speed. As ambient light becomes a more significant proportion of the illumination the situation becomes more complicated.

To make things complete, the exposure itself in a flash image (not changing ISO) is controlled via the aperture setting.

and via the flash power, either through flash exposure compensation if using TTL flash or manually if using manual flash setting.

Best,

Alex

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Hello!

Yes, I did mistype there - it was really supposed to read "flash duration". Thanks for paying attention, good catch!

And you are are also absolutely correct, that what I wrote was a gross generalisation.

Things do get a bit more complicated with extreme light levels, which (talking about macro only here) are hardly ever present even in harsh sunlight at typical macro apertures in my experience (f/11, 16) - it can be when combinig multiple wider aperture shots or when going for a stylized wide open look etc. though.

And of course, when dropping the shutter really low to get ambient spill in lower ambient light - handheld that is. What happens here, is that subject motion is still frozen by the flash(es), the overal scene can see some or much blur due to camera shake though. This can be used as an effect, but I find it mostly distracting to have a kind if sharp, yet washed out subject in a motion-blurred scene.

A neat little "test" setup at home is playing with the strobo-mode and longer exposure times - the long shutter speed lets in ambient light (depending on light levels of the ambient, more or less), the pulsing flash (short duration) stops the motion. There probably are some helpful online tutorials how to set up as well.

Here is an age old quick and dirty single exposure (nothing combined here) of me flipping open a one-hand pocketknife while handholding the camera with the other and using strobo mode. You can see the blade positions being stopped by the pulses from the flash (and being washed out because of the longer exposure time) as well as the overall motion in my hand due to the longer exposure time; not anywhere near a quality shot, this was purely done to make the flash-stop-motion visible. It is possible to get really interesting results with this though, especially in macro, because strobo-power levels are rather low to enable a motion-freezing short duration and work best up-close for that reason.

On of the best examples of using strobo-mode in the field comes courtesy of fellow macro shooter John Hallmen (the best out there imho), morfa - on here as well:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8471&view=next&sid=165af4e0fd37d44d385b01f3cc2725e7

Furthermore, you are correct as well, that the flash power is a major exposure controlling factor. I had my mind set on the way I shoot macro, manual everything, also preset flash output (to serve a purpose of certain looks, frozen motion etc) - with constant flash output, the aperture is the way to control the exposure, with changing power levels, the aperture needs to be adjusted as well.

I did this test shot about 15 years ago when still hosting the Macro thread in the Oly DSlr subforum on here, to show that taking control over the light is the single most important thing to controlling the look you get, imho anyways - the same subject (allowed me a total of three exposures, these two and the "real" shot before flying off), once with soft and plain light with ambient spill, once in a stylized harsh, ambient blocking fashion to get the "horror-stories-at-the-fireplace" look. The same two flashes were used, but overall tweaked and rotated to tailor the look. This does not necissarily have to be to one's tase (the "real" shot also had some ambient spill and light to bring some shadow/highlight change on the hairs), but shows what one can easily do on a repeatable basis when taking control over the light:

I myself sometimes like ambient light, sometimes I prefer the old-school black backdrops though:

Most of these are about a decade old and can be done in at least equal quality with modern cameras. All were done using flash and are meant to give a short glimpse at different looks - all were done the way they were done on purpose, controling light accordingly.

Best,

Alex

SiFu wrote:

[Lots of good stuff and examples]

Alex

That is very informative Alex. Thanks for taking the time on that.

I use a manual control (twin) flash and so flash exposure compensation doesn't come into it for me (with the camera in Manual mode too for flash work).

I have been using bridge cameras most of the time for invertebrates for several years (might be changing (back) to MFT as the preferred tool if Panasonic ever manage to provide me with a G80 that doesn't have sensor issues - I'm awaiting the outcome of my 6th attempt at the moment). With the bridge cameras I default to 1/1600 sec or so shutter speed to make the flash the dominant light source and thus avoid (without having to think about it) the (subject) ghosting problems I have occasionally encountered with slow shutter speeds. But I am increasingly bringing the shutter speed down to bring up backgrounds, especially for spatially isolated subjects, not necessarily fully up, but at least enough for the software to have something to pull up away from too dark a "floor".

I never use aperture to control exposure as with invertebrates I'm using minimum aperture to get maximum DoF and with botanical subjects I'm using aperture to control DoF, especially in relation to the rendition of backgrounds.

With my bridge cameras, as well as using shutter speed to influence background visibility I adjust subject illumination by adjusting the flash output (I don't like to go above base ISO with the small sensors).

With my MFT and APS-C cameras, it depends on the circumstances, but I often leave the flash level constant and adjust ISO (because with my current kit it is slightly more convenient and quicker to execute than flash level adjustments, and in any case I don't want to take the flash level too high because that can really slow down recycle times). I'm indifferent to ISO up to 800 on both MFT and APS-C. I occasionally go to ISO 1600 but I'm getting uncomfortable at that point, as with taking small sensor ISO above their base ISO 100).

Hello Nick!

You are most welcome! And one nice thing about photography to me has always been that there are often multiple ways to do things.

One reason for the ghosting you are seeing might be longer flash duration at higher output levels on cheaper flash units (the duration being too long to stop the subject motion and camera shake). Duration is a real differentiator when it comes to flashes!

I don't know if he is still present on here, but fellow macro geek "fotoopa" had some crazy hacks and flashes for his in-flight shots. Maybe google will turn him up again.

I hear you, regarding DOF - for that matter I started toying with live-focus-mapping (using Scheimpflug Tilt/Shift principles) a decade ago - it only started to pick up with mirrorless cameras, live preview and fast reaction times though. Helps to strategically place the focal plane at wider apertures (the sidelit bug in the previous post was one of the first snaps doing it on a DSLr still).

Here is on contemporary setups using a freed bellows and a specialty macro lens (Nikkor 13cm f6.3 from the Multiphot):

It can be used on a homemade rig for the occasional tripod tilt and shift as well:

Here it is attached to a N1 body, I use it with MFT and all my other cameras as well though.

Here are some more snaps in reduced size to show different lights and styles - I tend to like somewhat stylized (through light and pose) macros:

Best,

Alex

SiFu wrote:

Hello Nick!

You are most welcome! And one nice thing about photography to me has always been that there are often multiple ways to do things.

One reason for the ghosting you are seeing might be longer flash duration at higher output levels on cheaper flash units (the duration being too long to stop the subject motion and camera shake). Duration is a real differentiator when it comes to flashes!

I don't know if he is still present on here, but fellow macro geek "fotoopa" had some crazy hacks and flashes for his in-flight shots. Maybe google will turn him up again.

I hear you, regarding DOF - for that matter I started toying with live-focus-mapping (using Scheimpflug Tilt/Shift principles) a decade ago - it only started to pick up with mirrorless cameras, live preview and fast reaction times though. Helps to strategically place the focal plane at wider apertures (the sidelit bug in the previous post was one of the first snaps doing it on a DSLr still).

Here is on contemporary setups using a freed bellows and a specialty macro lens (Nikkor 13cm f6.3 from the Multiphot):

It can be used on a homemade rig for the occasional tripod tilt and shift as well:

Here it is attached to a N1 body, I use it with MFT and all my other cameras as well though.

That's fascinating to learn about your tilt/shift setup. Thank you. (Digesting the Wikipedia article on the Scheimpflug Principle will take me a little while!)