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An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

Started Aug 14, 2017 | Discussions
(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
18

Now the dust has settled from Sensor wars.....I've had my SD Quattro for some time and shot quite a bit with it so I thought I'd try and put some objective thoughts down, which might help those who've only had one or the other, or neither, with an image or two as examples. To give you the background, I have all three DP Merrills, and I've also owned the DP2X and the SD15, so I'm very familiar with the later generations of foveon, including SPP in its various iterations.

Right off the bat let me qualify all of this by saying I've had great results from all of them, and this isn't about which is better, because there is no one size fits all as far as I'm concerned, they're just different, significantly so IMHO. So firstly let me deal with the Quattro (SD-Q) and what I see as it's positives:

Quattro Positives:

1. Great colour in varying light, no doubt about it, the Quattro holds colour better, especially when the light is on the edges for these sensors, it's more consistent.
2. Versatility, compared to the Merrill compacts it's much easier to shoot with an interchangeable lens camera with an evf, and if you think the evf is bad go and shoot with a DPXM in the sun...then get back to me and I'll explain why your camera isn't broken.
3. Lifting the shadows - definitely better than the Merrills, which isn't much of a comliment, and just as well as I'll come on to. The Quattro sensor goes where Merrills fear to tread.
4. Mono - for the low contrast look it's nice, quite film like in its rendering, not so much for high contrast.
5. SFD - I haven't used it in anger yet but I will, it's a very nice to have, I'm especially looking forward to the write times....
6. JPEGs - I don't shoot jpegs but they do look pretty good when I've tested them.
7. DNG capability - another nice to have.
8. Battery life? - getting there Sigma, not sure about the drain on the dylithium crystals though, must be pretty intensive
9. Ergonomics - Pretty good, a couple of niggles with the dials, more user familiarity than anything else, I'm getting old.
10. Durability? I have no idea, but all good so far and it feels like it's built to last.....like my wife.
11. Street cred? - Same as the Merrills "What the hell is that?" I like that, never been one for the crowd, I shoot Sigma, so clearly....
12. Nightscapes? I don't know, haven't tried it for that yet, possibly never will, the Merrills are kings in that domain, but I'll assume they're similar.

Quattro Negatives:

1. Highlights - this is the big one for me, the achilles heel of the camera, this sensor blows highlights like interns blew Clinton, in fact it reminds me of my old Olympus E-510, capable of great results but boy do you need to pay attention to the highlights, it's definitely an expose to the left situation in really bright light. It's just as well you can pull the shadows quite a bit as under-exposing by as much as 1.7 stops is not unusual for me, that would be a disaster using the Merrills, in fact that would be a "shooting film on a range finder...with your lens cap on".....kind of disaster....if you want something that resembles colour....not cabbage in a beetroot jus.....
2. Infrared - just forget it, not worth bothering with, unless your favoured look is that of a smartphone shot at 100% magnification - Monnet would be pleased.
3. Higher ISO's - ISO 400 is tops for me in colour, I rarely ever go above 160. I reconcile that fact with the knowledge that in the film world ISO 160 is considered to be medium speed, no really, it is... that's not a joke...honestly...they still say it as well....seriously..
4. Higher ISO mono - doesn't work for me either, probably 800 would be my limit for this sensor, at a push. Some weird luminance noise going on as well, I wonder if my camera is haunted at higher ISOs
5. Cloud rendering? a bit "meh" if I'm honest, in comparison to other foveon cameras of course, so some stiff competition on that one.
6. Used for negative conversion to digital - ok but not brilliant, a bit flat for my taste.
7. Write times - Not enough time to put the kettle on, still enough time to do your shoe laces up.

A photo or two of what I mean - Good Quattro conditions:

Where it struggles, I still like the following image but I'm pretty sure I could have saved that sky with a Merrill sensor, so it doesn't look like Kim Jong-Un is visiting...or Donald Trumps hair....

So onto my triplets - the 3 DPXM's.

Merrill Positives:

1. That Merrill look, the gritty, contrasty, resolutiony signature Merrill look, gotta love that for certain subjects.
2. Compactness - what's not to like? they're pocket rockets (I have big pockets).
3. Highlights? - completely opposite of the Quattro, superb highlight recovery, shoot at ISO 200 and keep to the right whenever possible - probably it's biggest strength after the steampunk signature look.
4. Colour - yes, a strength, if you expose correctly in the right light, get it wrong and.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus again....
5. Mono - Merrilly awesomeness, sometimes you can push it to ISO 6400 and get good results, has a natural looking grain and the highlight retention makes it the closest thing to high contrast mono film you can get IMHO. Watch out for banding on the limits but SPP can often clean that up.
6. High ISO - Mono up to 6400 as I've said, high ISO colour?..I'll get my coat....
7. Cloud rendering? your lotto numbers have just come in, the best in the business. In the beginning the Lord created light....then Merrill clouds.
8. Durability? I dragged all three across the Alps, two ended up in a stream for a few seconds, (it's surprising how fast you can move when your pride and joy, complete with once in a lifetime shots, is hitting freezing water and rocks) all still work perfectly. they're tough little hombre's, take my word for it.
9. Hidden Street cred - I love watching people work out what they are, especially other photographers, because let s face it, unless you come on DPR no-one knows what the hell they are.
10. Converting film negatives? For medium format the DP3M is perfect, I get better results than the Quattro and its macro capability will capture all of a 6x9 negative comfortably.
11. Nightscapes on a tripod?  they rock, seriously they do, pointed stars for specular highlights, colours hold up, there's some kind of Merrilly tripod magic going on.

Merrill Negatives:
1. Battery life? erm....no, but I have 14 batteries and they're small, and I have lots of pockets....you get the picture.
2. LCD in bright light? what LCD? I cant see it, only this black thing? I get around that by using a jerry rigged Loupe with elastic around the camera, it works very well actually, and gives stability, but may get you arrested...
3. Shadows? - if you have to pull the shadows at all just hope the planets are aligned and you helped an old lady across the road that day, or you love the colours purple and green.........Get out of jail card?......I'll make that a mono image then....
4. Infrared? good luck with that one (unless you own the SD Merrill in which case you've struck oil...next to a gold ingot)
5. Ergonomics? it's a box with a sensor in it ( I kind of like its minimalism but plenty don't like that soap bar thing).
6. Write times - I'll put the kettle on then (But not so bad as you can still keep shooting)

So what do Merrills do best?.........this

Whats not so good?..................................................................................................................................................................... You really didn't think I'd be posting the purple and green horror show that is Merrill shadows pulled did you? Seriously? I "mono" those shots

So there you have it, not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs, but that's how they work for me, and I love them both. Oh, and an honorary mention for the 30mm F1.4 "kit" prime, it rocks, no seriously it does, sharp wide open, scalpel sharp stopped down, about the worst I can say about it is that you can get some CA in bright highlights at wider apertures, no big deal and no need to upgrade to an Art lens from this bad boy......I'll just don my flame retardent suit....I'll be with you in a minute....

Sigma DP2x Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma sd Quattro Sigma SD15
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ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

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Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

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OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

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Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

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OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

I watched the sensor wars from the sidelines.  Never could see the sand until one day...

As a Merrill owner however, I am used to strange alien chromatic invasions creeping out of tarmac, trousers etc etc.  Don't push the shadows - leave the shadows alone!

What you didn't mention because all fixed lens Sigmas have it are a stunning lens with essentially a free weird camera stuck on the back of it.  You also didn't mention a battery life measurement that lets a Merrill die while writing the file.

Andrew

-- hide signature --

Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

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OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

I watched the sensor wars from the sidelines. Never could see the sand until one day...

I never suffered the sand, I joined the Quattro Party late on, I almost feel like I missed out.

As a Merrill owner however, I am used to strange alien chromatic invasions creeping out of tarmac, trousers etc etc. Don't push the shadows - leave the shadows alone!

No good ever comes from the shadows...

What you didn't mention because all fixed lens Sigmas have it are a stunning lens with essentially a free weird camera stuck on the back of it.

I must like that kind of thing, I'm now the proud owner of a Fuji GW690II, if you've never had the pleasure think "Honey I blew up the camera!". My wife lovingly christened it the "Delboy" Camera. You can normally tell when people have spotted it (which isn't exactly difficult) as their jaws are usually dragging on the floor, I'm thinking of getting a Stetson....

You also didn't mention a battery life measurement that lets a Merrill die while writing the file.

Andrew

Why spoil the surprise?

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Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

I aim for just odd.

Of course it needs a sling screwed into the tripod foot.

Amazingly it AFs, unlike the Bigma.

Andrew

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Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

 ahaslett's gear list:ahaslett's gear list
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OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

ahaslett wrote:

I aim for just odd.

Of course it needs a sling screwed into the tripod foot.

Amazingly it AFs, unlike the Bigma.

Andrew

It looks ergonomically perfect, are your wrists double jointed.......yet?

ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

I aim for just odd.

Of course it needs a sling screwed into the tripod foot.

Amazingly it AFs, unlike the Bigma.

Andrew

It looks ergonomically perfect, are your wrists double jointed.......yet?

You hold the lens in front of you and try and find the shutter button while squinting at the LCD.  It's the next level to our game after shooting your Merrill in bright sunlight.

Andrew

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Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

 ahaslett's gear list:ahaslett's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Olympus E-M1 Sony a7R Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +33 more
OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

I aim for just odd.

Of course it needs a sling screwed into the tripod foot.

Amazingly it AFs, unlike the Bigma.

Andrew

It looks ergonomically perfect, are your wrists double jointed.......yet?

You hold the lens in front of you and try and find the shutter button while squinting at the LCD. It's the next level to our game after shooting your Merrill in bright sunlight.

Andrew

Awesome, I like a challenge (obviously), is it more fun than holding the equivalent of a slab of granite to your eye, in both size and weight, whilst trying to line up the faintest of yellow smudges in order to get some semblance of sharpness with dof slimmer than a Rizla which Diane Abbott sat on, in your images? if so I'm in.....

ahaslett
ahaslett Forum Pro • Posts: 12,643
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

I aim for just odd.

Of course it needs a sling screwed into the tripod foot.

Amazingly it AFs, unlike the Bigma.

Andrew

It looks ergonomically perfect, are your wrists double jointed.......yet?

You hold the lens in front of you and try and find the shutter button while squinting at the LCD. It's the next level to our game after shooting your Merrill in bright sunlight.

Andrew

Awesome, I like a challenge (obviously), is it more fun than holding the equivalent of a slab of granite to your eye, in both size and weight, whilst trying to line up the faintest of yellow smudges in order to get some semblance of sharpness with dof slimmer than a Rizla which Diane Abbott sat on, in your images? if so I'm in.....

I see that there is a lot to learn on the Dark Side...

-- hide signature --

Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin

 ahaslett's gear list:ahaslett's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Olympus E-M1 Sony a7R Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +33 more
PrebenR Veteran Member • Posts: 4,164
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

Suitable title

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.

SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 15,728
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

I think you're mostly nailed it. A very fair and well rounded assessment. But I would really like to see some of your best Merrill colour landscapes - although I agree that they do produce wonderful mono work.

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Forum Pro • Posts: 13,282
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
2

ahaslett wrote:

You hold the lens in front of you and try and find the shutter button while squinting at the LCD. It's the next level to our game after shooting your Merrill in bright sunlight.

I've had good luck with a hoodman loupe.  I just hold it against the display while shooting (DP3M and dp0q).

Not quite as good as the EVF in the sd Quattro though.

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Tom Schum
Every day a new image.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 18,026
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

What the hell is "Beetroot Jus" man?!?

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Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 15,728
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

Scottelly wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

What the hell is "Beetroot Jus" man?!?

I guess it's this , man.

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JojoChuang Forum Member • Posts: 62
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

Scottelly wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

What the hell is "Beetroot Jus" man?!?

Try some my friend. The most delicious disgusting crops grow in the Sigma shadow.

 JojoChuang's gear list:JojoChuang's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Sony a7 II Sigma sd Quattro H Sony FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS +10 more
OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
1

Scottelly wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Interesting and thoughtful post but are you ready to finish what you started?

As a Sigma shooter, obviously

Watch out for people throwing "sand".

Andrew

I have the perfect antidote for sand.....Cabbage in Beetroot Jus

What the hell is "Beetroot Jus" man?!?

It's a posh culinary term for Beetroot gravy.

OP (unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 12,354
Re: An irreverent look at the Quattro vs Merrill thing....
11

SigmaChrome wrote:

I think you're mostly nailed it. A very fair and well rounded assessment. But I would really like to see some of your best Merrill colour landscapes - although I agree that they do produce wonderful mono work.

Thanks, I mostly shoot mono with them, here are a few of examples of colour.

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