G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

Started Aug 6, 2017 | Discussions
Tony Collins Senior Member • Posts: 1,735
G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
1

Yesterday for a friend, I took some pictures at their wedding "recreation" (Not a wedding, but a party for family who were not able to join them in florida)

For the first time in a year, I've had many shots ruined by moire problems. Here is one of the worst examples, showing before and after lightroom's adjustment brush moire tool (Just a rough/ready painting on - will have to be more precise later).

Does anyone have an alternate fix for this?

Fortunately I was doing this as a favour, and for free. If this is the best fix I can get then the G80/85 would be completely unsuitable for a pro wedding photographer - imagine explaining THAT to a paying client
:-/

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epozar Senior Member • Posts: 1,094
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

"Moire in not a big problem".. "easily fixable" ..
has a similar experience with female Black pantyhose for example. Or money in closeup.

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Paul80 Regular Member • Posts: 101
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
4

I wonder if that is the result of the G80/85 not having an Anti-aliasing filter

It gives a sharper image but can give Moire if the conditions are right, as it looks to be in your examples

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epozar Senior Member • Posts: 1,094
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
1

Paul80 wrote:

I wonder if that is the result of the G80/85 not having an Anti-aliasing filter

It gives a sharper image but can give Moire if the conditions are right, as it looks to be in your examples

No wonder her.. it *IS* the result of no AA filter.
The very problem with most new cameras

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Tom Axford Veteran Member • Posts: 6,629
Cameras need AA filters!
4

Horrendous moire is the result of the current ridiculous fashion for cameras with no AA filter!

Many people prefer cameras without AA filters because they produce sharper pictures, but completely forget that the price you pay is moire and other aliasing artifacts.

It is time for the camera manufacturers to return to making cameras with effective AA filters.

drj3 Veteran Member • Posts: 9,660
Re: Cameras need AA filters!
5

Tom Axford wrote:

Horrendous moire is the result of the current ridiculous fashion for cameras with no AA filter!

Many people prefer cameras without AA filters because they produce sharper pictures, but completely forget that the price you pay is moire and other aliasing artifacts.

It is time for the camera manufacturers to return to making cameras with effective AA filters.

Maybe the Nikon D800/D800E solution, offer the camera with/without AA filter.  I photograph mostly wildlife and the people I photograph are rarely dressed in suits, so I have no desire for a camera with an AA filter.  I have seen moire maybe 10 times in over 300,000 images, so for me, not a problem.

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Jacques Cornell
Jacques Cornell Forum Pro • Posts: 12,041
Not unique to G80. Also, a simple fix.
15

Tony Collins wrote:

Yesterday for a friend, I took some pictures at their wedding "recreation" (Not a wedding, but a party for family who were not able to join them in florida)

For the first time in a year, I've had many shots ruined by moire problems. Here is one of the worst examples, showing before and after lightroom's adjustment brush moire tool (Just a rough/ready painting on - will have to be more precise later).

Does anyone have an alternate fix for this?

Fortunately I was doing this as a favour, and for free. If this is the best fix I can get then the G80/85 would be completely unsuitable for a pro wedding photographer - imagine explaining THAT to a paying client
:-/

I have encountered moiré on cameras both with and without AA filters. This is certainly not limited to the G80 or even to AA-filterless cameras. One way to avoid moiré when you encounter it while shooting is to slightly change the magnification of the subject in the frame, either by zooming or changing the distance. Moiré is an interference pattern that occurs when the spatial frequency of the detail matches the spatial frequency of the pixels on the sensor. Changing the distance or focal length changes this relationship and eliminates the moiré.

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d3xmeister Veteran Member • Posts: 3,380
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
3

That looks horrible.

I'm not sure the AA filter or the lack of it would have made a big difference. There are some type of fabrics that will do that.

Some years ago I was shooting a wedding and the bride's mother had this outfit turned out photos just like yours. I was using a Nikon D3s, which have a strong AA, and a 24-70mm. We had a backup Nikon D80 (also strong AA filter) and a 18-55mm VR lens so I took that and shot wide open where the lens was pretty soft. Nothing work. In the end I realised I can somehow control the amount of moire by framing much tighter when this woman was in the frame, there was a point where moire was almost gone.

Based on this experience, and others, I think a AA filter would not have made much difference in your situation.

left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,993
Try introducing aperture diffraction

Tony Collins wrote:

Yesterday for a friend, I took some pictures at their wedding "recreation" (Not a wedding, but a party for family who were not able to join them in florida)

For the first time in a year, I've had many shots ruined by moire problems. Here is one of the worst examples, showing before and after lightroom's adjustment brush moire tool (Just a rough/ready painting on - will have to be more precise later).

Does anyone have an alternate fix for this?

Fortunately I was doing this as a favour, and for free. If this is the best fix I can get then the G80/85 would be completely unsuitable for a pro wedding photographer - imagine explaining THAT to a paying client
:-/

There's been similar questions raised over in the MF forum in relation to the GFX50S.

Cameras with AA filters can reduce moire but they never eliminate it. On a tripod Pentax pixel-shift cameras (K-3II, K-1) can eliminate it, but require a static subject.

Fuji X-trans camera are a sure bet to reducing moire and 90% mostly eliminating it, due to their odd 3x3 RGB filer arrangement (as opposed to the standard bayer 2x2 grid).

In your case the only advice is stop the lens down so that diffraction kicks in, this acts in the same way as a AA filter, adding blur.

I suggest to try some test shots of a material that causes this problem, at f5.6 then quite stopped down, f11, f16 maybe even f22.

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bsas
bsas Contributing Member • Posts: 619
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

I am curious if any photoshop guru here have a magic tip to remove it in post

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,993
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
1

bsas wrote:

I am curious if any photoshop guru here have a magic tip to remove it in post

As far as I know, colour rainbow moire yes - can be just about eliminated, but not luminance banding - this requires retouching.

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Pete Berry Veteran Member • Posts: 3,560
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

I'm assuming that you're shooting 1080p since you didn't mention 4K. Minimal to absent moire is IMO the single biggest contribution of Panny's 4K implementation, as it can be seen from across the room when present.

Simply shoot 4K and put it on a 1080p timeline and 90% of your moire will be gone.

Pete

Hatstand Senior Member • Posts: 1,601
Fix, using Photoshop
19

Tony Collins wrote:

Does anyone have an alternate fix for this?

Try this:

https://photographylife.com/how-to-remove-moire-in-photoshop

I did a quick and dirty attempt, see below.
The original version, for reference:

And the (quick and dirty) fixed version:

Fixed version

Sorry, I neglected to include parts of his jacket, at the left side of the image, in my selection area... but I couldn't be bothered to re-do. You may be able to do better with this method, if you take your time (which I didn't), and if you have the raw file (above link mentions using "down sampling process in Photoshop" with raw to get much better results)

Ideally, you should detect and avoid it at the time, as described by others above, and indeed - be aware that in can happen even on cameras with AA filters...!

It can also happen with layers of thin/translucent fabrics - where moire is visible to the human eye (ie. nothing to do with digitisation artifacts...!) it which case, the camera correctly captures the moire that you see with your own eyes!

left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,993
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

Pete Berry wrote:

I'm assuming that you're shooting 1080p since you didn't mention 4K. Minimal to absent moire is IMO the single biggest contribution of Panny's 4K implementation, as it can be seen from across the room when present.

Simply shoot 4K and put it on a 1080p timeline and 90% of your moire will be gone.

Pete

Filming? - maybe I missed something; I think he's taking photographs as most of us do with cameras.

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,993
Re: Fix, using Photoshop

Hatstand wrote:

Tony Collins wrote:

Does anyone have an alternate fix for this?

Try this:

https://photographylife.com/how-to-remove-moire-in-photoshop

I did a quick and dirty attempt, see below.
The original version, for reference:

And the (quick and dirty) fixed version:

Fixed version

Sorry, I neglected to include parts of his jacket, at the left side of the image, in my selection area... but I couldn't be bothered to re-do. You may be able to do better with this method, if you take your time (which I didn't), and if you have the raw file (above link mentions using "down sampling process in Photoshop" with raw to get much better results)

Ideally, you should detect and avoid it at the time, as described by others above, and indeed - be aware that in can happen even on cameras with AA filters...!

It can also happen with layers of thin/translucent fabrics - where moire is visible to the human eye (ie. nothing to do with digitisation artifacts...!) it which case, the camera correctly captures the moire that you see with your own eyes!

good call !!!

I'm going to see if this actually works, if so, it's slightly time-consuming ...but valuable fix.

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Pete Berry Veteran Member • Posts: 3,560
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

left eye wrote:

Pete Berry wrote:

I'm assuming that you're shooting 1080p since you didn't mention 4K. Minimal to absent moire is IMO the single biggest contribution of Panny's 4K implementation, as it can be seen from across the room when present.

Simply shoot 4K and put it on a 1080p timeline and 90% of your moire will be gone.

Pete

Filming? - maybe I missed something; I think he's taking photographs as most of us do with cameras.

Well, you got me there, but never in 8 years of m4/3 - now GH4 and AA filter-less GH5 - have I seen moire like that.

And yes, I still do take still images in my feeble old age:

https://www.dpreview.com/members/2779399177/galleries

daddyo Forum Pro • Posts: 12,670
I feel your pain -- me too!

I just did a portrait session with a retiring county sheriff's officer. He had to turn in his uniform the next day and wanted a portrait for his aged mother. We did the shoot and all looked great until I uploaded the files and saw the horrible moire pattern on his shirt.

Fortunately, I was able to fix most of it fairly easily using the two step process linked to in one of the above responses.

Lesson learned! I was zooming in while shooting to make sure his face was in good focus, but did not scroll around the image -- had I, I would have seen the clearly obvious moire patterns on his shirt, and adjusted my crop and or aperture to eliminate it during the shoot.

I have so very rarely encountered moire in the past that it simply did not occur to me to check -- hopefully, I won't forget in the future.

A little over a year ago I did an indoor group portrait of 215 people for a company. Every thing went great except several of the shirts worn by some of the men in the group had those very small checkered patterns -- moire city! I was able to fix those pretty well and the time was worth it since the company ordered a bunch of large prints from that shoot -- but it was a pain, non the less.

P.S. The first camera company that figures out a very good in-camera fix when moire is detected will have a big selling point for portrait/event photographers. In lieu of that, hopefully someone will develop a sophisticated software fix that is very quick and simple to use.

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Terrible Photographer
Terrible Photographer Regular Member • Posts: 481
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

bruh, do you even Capture One? This doesn't happen in that.

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citizenlouie Contributing Member • Posts: 815
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?
1

I don't like camera without AA filter either.  I don't mind sacrificing a little sharpness for the sake of moire reduction.  I was just thinking whether to get an E-M1 MKII to see if it has better tonality and rendering than E-M5 MKII (I used E-M1 MK1 before and it rendered tonality better, though not due to AA filter issue).  E-M5 MKII after the latest firmware, the over-sharpening effect is to the point of distasteful.

I took out of E-620, which of course has strong AA filter and "outdated" sensor, renders the tonality much better if lighting is not an issue.  I just wish camera companies stop this removing AA filter nonsense (fine tune AA filter, rather than removing it for cost saving, is the key).  Sharpness is only a small part of the entire photo's rendering, and it should be delegated to optics (e.g., lenses) for a more natural looking photo.

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OP Tony Collins Senior Member • Posts: 1,735
Re: G80 - horrendous unfixable moire?

Yep, it's a still image, shot in raw. Both the lightroom processed raw, and the jpg show the same effect.

Shots of the same suit at different magnification (distance/focal length) still show some moire, but much more manageable.

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Tony Collins

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