how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?

Started Jul 13, 2017 | Discussions
bananasushi Regular Member • Posts: 137
how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?

I have heard that filming in 60 fps is only necessary for filming fast moving subjects such as race cars and sports... however I have watched plenty of videos on youtube where I know the person filming is using 24fps or 30fps and when they pan I can still see judder. They are using a gimble and are panning medium to medium slow. In my opinion they are panning what I would consider slow. Not too slow to fall asleep where they are going like a snail and not too fast that it's just a blur and you can't see the subject, but a nice steady comfortable sweep, but I still see plenty of judder always. I see it on multiple different people's travel videos. I don't think I've seen a pan that didn't have judder. That is what led me to think, it's the frame rate that is too slow. I started to believe that a higher frame rate would be necessary. Maybe 40 or 60.

For all this video, I'm referring to 4K. I don't know if 1080 or 4K would make a difference in terms of judder.

So I was looking at cameras and I was considering the Panasonic G85, everything seemed perfect until I realized it can only do 4K up to 30 fps... so then I was like, well then GH5 it's gonna have to be.

But... some ppl said 60fps is only for super fast stuff..

I have seen some videos filmed in 4K 60fps, but those were filmed from inside a moving train. They were either filmed from the front of the train looking forward, or looking out the side of the window, and I can't say they looked very good. Pretty blurry. But those were very fast moving speeds.

I don't think I've seen a 4K vid in 60fps that had a slow pan. Can anyone show me a 4k vid in 60 fps where there is no judder, or even a 4K vid in 24 or 30 fps that has no judder?

I'd just like to know if it's possible to get no judder while panning in 24/30 fps and I'd like to compare it with 60fps. Mind you all I've seen has been on youtube. I don't know if the videos were originally judder free and youtube compressed them and ruined it introducing judder..

I did find these videos

60fps pan test

24fps pan test

60fps is definitely better

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Abrak Veteran Member • Posts: 4,141
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
1

The judder in panning is generally caused by shooting at too high a shutter speed. To have smooth footage you need to shoot at a shutter speed of 1/(2 x FPS). If we look at the footage it is a bright sunny day - the correct shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 and 1/120 for 60fps. If he was shooting at say 1/200 for both shots the 24fps will look juddery. The 1/(2xfps) means that when you pan you introduce motion blur into every shot which makes the footage seem smooth.

Anyhow here is some footage I just took straight out of camera showing a reasonably fast pan on a Panasonic GX85/4k/30fps/1/60/iso200 - not really any noticeable jutter to me.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Arx347dcSG47tUAW1fL5iM2YgjHK

You only really need 60fps for slow mo.

ZX11
ZX11 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,717
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
1

bananasushi wrote:

I have heard that filming in 60 fps is only necessary for filming fast moving subjects such as race cars and sports... however I have watched plenty of videos on youtube where I know the person filming is using 24fps or 30fps and when they pan I can still see judder. They are using a gimble and are panning medium to medium slow. In my opinion they are panning what I would consider slow. Not too slow to fall asleep where they are going like a snail and not too fast that it's just a blur and you can't see the subject, but a nice steady comfortable sweep, but I still see plenty of judder always. I see it on multiple different people's travel videos. I don't think I've seen a pan that didn't have judder. That is what led me to think, it's the frame rate that is too slow. I started to believe that a higher frame rate would be necessary. Maybe 40 or 60.

For all this video, I'm referring to 4K. I don't know if 1080 or 4K would make a difference in terms of judder.

So I was looking at cameras and I was considering the Panasonic G85, everything seemed perfect until I realized it can only do 4K up to 30 fps... so then I was like, well then GH5 it's gonna have to be.

But... some ppl said 60fps is only for super fast stuff..

I have seen some videos filmed in 4K 60fps, but those were filmed from inside a moving train. They were either filmed from the front of the train looking forward, or looking out the side of the window, and I can't say they looked very good. Pretty blurry. But those were very fast moving speeds.

I don't think I've seen a 4K vid in 60fps that had a slow pan. Can anyone show me a 4k vid in 60 fps where there is no judder, or even a 4K vid in 24 or 30 fps that has no judder?

I'd just like to know if it's possible to get no judder while panning in 24/30 fps and I'd like to compare it with 60fps. Mind you all I've seen has been on youtube. I don't know if the videos were originally judder free and youtube compressed them and ruined it introducing judder..

I did find these videos

60fps pan test

24fps pan test

60fps is definitely better

I didn't realize Youtube would play back at more than 30fps.  Thought they down converted it so people tended to use 60fps for slow down effects.

There is software to add motion blur to moving subjects.  That way it isn't really clear where the subject is from frame to frame and the viewer just fills in where it would be between frames.

Or you can slow down your shutter as the other reply said.

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LingoDingo Senior Member • Posts: 1,305
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
3

Back when people shot movies with actual film, the rule of thumb for panning at 24 fps is that it should take 7 seconds for any item to travel from one side of the frame to the other. ( old cinematography manuals had panning tables that listed other frame rates and the correct shutter speed to use )

From what I've seen most people shooting digital video pan too fast and then complain about visible judder afterwards. Do you own tests comparing panning speed and shutter speeds, and you should eventually figure out what rates are acceptable to your eye.

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DMKAlex
DMKAlex Veteran Member • Posts: 4,608
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
1

Why don't you shoot at 4K wide wide open (angle) and do your pan in PP?

There is no camera movement.

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,130
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
1

DMKAlex wrote:

Why don't you shoot at 4K wide wide open (angle) and do your pan in PP?

There is no camera movement.

Even if you shoot with the camera locked down, panning a 2K window across a 4K frame will still result in a staccato effect if the pan is fast enough.

OP bananasushi Regular Member • Posts: 137
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?

Abrak wrote:

The judder in panning is generally caused by shooting at too high a shutter speed. To have smooth footage you need to shoot at a shutter speed of 1/(2 x FPS). If we look at the footage it is a bright sunny day - the correct shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 and 1/120 for 60fps. If he was shooting at say 1/200 for both shots the 24fps will look juddery. The 1/(2xfps) means that when you pan you introduce motion blur into every shot which makes the footage seem smooth.

Does that have anything to do with the 180 degree rule I've heard about?

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,130
Re: how fast/slow to pan and what fps to use to get no judder?
1

bananasushi wrote:

Abrak wrote:

The judder in panning is generally caused by shooting at too high a shutter speed. To have smooth footage you need to shoot at a shutter speed of 1/(2 x FPS). If we look at the footage it is a bright sunny day - the correct shutter speed for 24fps is 1/48 and 1/120 for 60fps.

Does that have anything to do with the 180 degree rule I've heard about?

Yes, that is exactly what the 180 degree rule is:  use a shutter speed that exposes each frame for half of the frame rate.   So at 30 frames per second you'd use a shutter speed of 1/60th of a second.

That will introduce motion blur that will help to mask the staccato appearance of the slow frame rate, although of course the blur also obscures detail.   The only way to get smooth pans and lots of detail is to use a higher frame rate.

With slow shutter speeds like that you may need to use a neutral density filter in bright outdoor lights to avoid overexposure, especially if you want to use a wide aperture for depth of field control.

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