Upgrade from 450D to 77D or m4/3

TL;DR Should I get a newer model Canon SLR or should I be switching to mirrorless for a more compact solution, but keeping image quality.

I currently own a 450D with 18-55 kit lens, 50 mm portrait and a 55-250 mm. Purchased in 2008/2009.

I enjoy photography just as a hobby, and I would classify myself as a holiday / family photographer, although I prefer taking pictures of non-people to my wifes dispair.

I will be the first to admit that I have started to use an iphone 7 plus for the family snaps, and use the SLR for shooting outdoor football (aka soccer) and indoor floorball (Swedish indoor hockey in sportshalls).

On holiday the SLR has served well for shooting windsurfing photos aswell as the touristic shooting.

I have read too much about what has happened the past 9 years, wrt m4/3, bridge (fz1000) cameras etc.. Have tried some different models in the store, and find many of the mirrorless models to have viewfinders I don't like - wavy / hard to see the full viewfinder due to being a glasses wearer.

After some persuasion from my eldest son I am looking for an upgrade. The reasons are: video support, better ISO for indoor sports shooting, and the fully articulated screen will be a joy (I missed that when going to the 450D from a powershot).

The question is, should I aim at a 77D/800D (or even a 760D) or is it time to switch to mirrorless e.g. m4/3 DMC G80. I feel the market is changing and SLRs are kind of old school. I enjoy taking photos, but don't have the ambition to have a great collection of lenses. If a bridge camera had been good enough I would get one.

Any good advice?

Thanks!

Daniel

damcify wrote: I enjoy photography just as a hobby,.....I will be the first to admit that I have started to use an iphone 7 plus for the family snaps, and use the SLR for shooting outdoor football (aka soccer) and indoor floorball (Swedish indoor hockey in sportshalls).

There is NO NEED to upgrade, you already have the Perfect Combo.

• An old DSLR for Sports, and
• IPhone 7 plus for everything else

I switch from Canon to M43 three years ago, Smartphone photography was a joke back in 2014, so the switch makes sense for me.

But with Apple's superiority Jpeg processing of Iphone 7 in 2017 (better than Canon Sony Fuji or Olympus jpeg) with more accurate WB, better color saturation, and better metering that doesn't overexposed sky like Canon XSi) I wouldn't bother with another DSLR or mirrorless camera.

I say keep what you have. Your ancient Canon XSI is still super to M43 when it comes to continuous AF (which still plagues mirrorless today)

I ♡ my M43, but it doesn't deliver on sports shooting, most of us get by just shooting Video for action then frame grab the still. While you can buy a $599 Panason GX850 for its unique 4K Still ability.......

Keep in mind you can already use your Iphone 7 to shoot a 4K Video then frame grab for stills. Heck, comes to think of it, you don't really need your old Canon XSI either.

Another Advantage people don't think about is that Smartphone takes better Video since it's lens don't make Audible Noise to ruin video. With Canon, you must buy the latest 55 - 250mm STM to capture noise free video.

damcify wrote:

TL;DR Should I get a newer model Canon SLR or should I be switching to mirrorless for a more compact solution, but keeping image quality.

I currently own a 450D with 18-55 kit lens, 50 mm portrait and a 55-250 mm. Purchased in 2008/2009.

I enjoy photography just as a hobby, and I would classify myself as a holiday / family photographer, although I prefer taking pictures of non-people to my wifes dispair.

I will be the first to admit that I have started to use an iphone 7 plus for the family snaps, and use the SLR for shooting outdoor football (aka soccer) and indoor floorball (Swedish indoor hockey in sportshalls).

On holiday the SLR has served well for shooting windsurfing photos aswell as the touristic shooting.

I have read too much about what has happened the past 9 years, wrt m4/3, bridge (fz1000) cameras etc.. Have tried some different models in the store, and find many of the mirrorless models to have viewfinders I don't like - wavy / hard to see the full viewfinder due to being a glasses wearer.

After some persuasion from my eldest son I am looking for an upgrade. The reasons are: video support, better ISO for indoor sports shooting, and the fully articulated screen will be a joy (I missed that when going to the 450D from a powershot).

The question is, should I aim at a 77D/800D (or even a 760D) or is it time to switch to mirrorless e.g. m4/3 DMC G80. I feel the market is changing and SLRs are kind of old school. I enjoy taking photos, but don't have the ambition to have a great collection of lenses. If a bridge camera had been good enough I would get one.

Any good advice?

Thanks!

Daniel

I like both the g80/85 and the 800d/77d. Both have their pros and cons. But since you mentioned you like to shoot sports, ,then go for the 800d (or 77d). That has better AF in action or continuous AF than the G80/85.  Since you don't upgrade often, though the 760d is also good, best to go with the better AF of the 800d/77d. It has slightly better low light capabilities too with digic 7 (vs digic 6). In fact, the 800d/77d is the same sensor and AF points used in the 80d.  Both g80 and the 800d/77d have fully articulating touch screens.

What you will lose with the 800d is the 4k video. Some size and weight advantage. If you don't mind this, then the 800d/77d is the better choice. You also don't get the nice EVF, only the OVF. But you gain about 1.3 stops of better high ISO with the canon.

If you choose 800d/77d or the g80/85, for sports, it is still important to get fast lenses to stop motion. Yes, you can crank up to iso 3200 or 6400 but fast lenses can make you operate in lower ISOs, hence less noise. I would recommend the 50 f1.8 stm for such a task. If you need more reach, go for the 85 f1.8 usm. Both are a bit affordable.

I know where you are coming from as I had the 20d and the 400d. Sold the 400d and just held on the 20d for sentimental reasons. Besides, I can only get U$100 at most if I sold it. Having used newer mirroless cameras and even newer sensors, what you will soon find out is the big difference in AF speed and accuracy (way faster than the 450d even in the dim light), the sharpness an color accuracy of LCD screens, the convenience of touch screens, the accurate AWB, the high resolution (24mp of the 800d), the ease of use. higher dynamic range, less noise in high ISO (3200 is ok to use, with 6400 very acceptable), etc. etc.

So, yes, I would upgrade if I were you. It is worth it. I know because the improvements are really amazing and a big jump from my old cameras. Even my 3-year tech fz-1000 can see in the dark, and has good EVF/LCD that it is fun to shoot even in the very dark situations. The 800d should be better. If you want the intervalometer, top display screen, the AF-On button (useful if you want to separte focus and exposure), and find a round dial an advantage, get the 77d instead.

damcify wrote:

Thanks! Interesting to hear that the G80/85 is not quiet as good in AF terms for sports. Had missed that.

It's not that it is bad. Don't get me wrong. It's just that it tends to lose focus every now in then in continuous AF. This has something to do with panasonic having no OSPDAF. Once they have that, this should go away. But if you are concerned with photos only, the G80/85 is fine. But once you start tracking the subject, it can miss the subject now and then.

Looking at my images of sports they are in the range of 70 to 130 and occasionally upto 200mm. Don't dare using the full 250mm due to softness at the ends apparently. I do already own a nifty fifty.

Regardless if you choose a MFT or aps-c or 35FF camera, low light will need fast lenses. And only primes can give you f2 or faster lenses. f2.8 is typical for most zooms. Trouble is, that is going to be expensive. The next best thing is getting a 70-200 f4L or something like it. That will give you some reach at f4. Anything more than that, is going to be f5.6 (eg. 70-300 or 100-400).  So, you have to draw the line somewhere. If you are shooting soccer or some outdoor sports, since it will likely be daytime, no problem. But as the sun sets or if it is cloudy or the stadium is using its own light, f5.6 may not be enough. F4 might you through it. Or you can crank up the ISO to 6400 or 12,800 and deal with the noise later. The other option is to use  a prime (50mm, 85mm or 135mm or 200mm) and shoot wide open then just crop later. You lose some pixels but you don't get that much noise and you stop the action. Sport photography is the most demanding type of photography IMO. It needs a fast and better camera, lenses, and other things.

Clear there is no doubt in your mind that the 77D/800D is the one to go for. It is stretching my budget, so I was going to opt out of the kit lens, and hope to reuse the existing lenses. To be honest I barely ever use the kit lens and prefer the EF 50 f1.8 II or the EF 55-250 IS.

The 55-250 IS is ok. It's good. Not fast, but you can use it as a bench mark of what you might need later. If it works now, good for you. Saves you money from buying a 70-200 f4L. But I think that will be a keeper.

As I wrote before, the 750/760d also have good AF. In fact, you can save money (in our country around U$200) if I don't go for the 800d. I even saw a used 760d with 50 f1.8 stm for less than U$600! But that 19 PDAF-hybrid vs the 45-OSPDAF is a bit far off in performance if you are tracking a moving subject! If you were talking of only doing portraits or general photography, landscape, macro, etc, I'd steer you to the 750d/760d and save yourself money. But when you talk about sports and subject tracking, the difference between the 2 matters. That is why, even if it costs you more, go for the 800d/77d.

Will these lenses be ok to use with the 77D ?

Yes, they will. But for sports, test them out. they are there already so use them. If they don't work out, that's the time to save up for a faster lens.

The only reason I have looked at the Panasonic model is for a slightly more compact package and for the 4K mode (images) 30fps. Must be great for picking the perfect shot for sports. However, if it is out of focus it is no good ;-). I do prefer the Canon ergonomics with my large hands.

Rightly so. If they don't have problems with AF tracking, I'd have a hard time choosing between that and the Canon. It's about equal. But if you did not mention sports, then the panasonic has equal merits and would probably be better all around.

Really appreciate the feedback!

Sure, anytime!

damcify wrote:

Reading between the lines I understand we are probably talking about different image qualities. I am coming from desperately shooting at 800 ISO with the 55-250 4.0/5.6 IS and hoping to get some entertaining material. I don't mind some noise and this can often be improved in post processing. So I am coming from quiet a dark place (literally)

Probably. But still, if indeed you want to shoot at iso 800, then the more reason to go for fast lenses to keep the shutter speed high. More so in sports. If we are talking of static subjects, then maybe the 55-250  with IS, even at 1/15 or so will do. but when the subject is moving, then only faster lenses will do, especially if you don't want to move up from iso 800.

Shooting with the 50mm 1.8 makes almost acceptable images indoors, which is why I hope the 77D with its 24MP and higher ISO will make a good crop panel image. And then still a little hope that the 55-250 will also be usable in some situations indoors.

yes, that 24mp vs your old 18mp (?), will afford you some cropping room and still maintain some decent pixels remaining. The 55-250 is slow at f5.6 so, you may have to move to iso 1600 to 3200. What you may not know, having been stuck to the 450d (as I was in the 400d), is that today's sensors are very much usable at iso 1600 and 3200. If you think iso 800 is your upper boundary, move that a couple of notches. Iso 3200 is much usable. In fact, you might even find iso 6400 acceptable! So, if you are bent on using slow lenses, don't be afraid to go crank up the iso to 3200 at least.

I can see if I can dig up some examples. Fast glass would be great - the 85mm is very tempting as a good step up on a budget for sports photography.

I just got a used 85mm f1.8 usm last week. You need not go to this asap. Go for the 50 f1.8 stm first. That might work already for you. If you really need more reach, then add that 85mm f1.8! At least you scale up as needed.

Back to the G80/85 again. I did try the viewfinder but it felt awkward.... then trying the 77D it felt great I am trying so hard to like smaller cameras too like the m5 or A6300 but they are just not so ergonomic I feel - have become comfortable with "truck size" Also the text is really small on the LCD (yes, well over 40!) I now have to consider such aspects too .

Well, at least you know you are being budged to the canon. Again, nothing wrong with either one as long as you know what you are trading in terms of features or convenience.

The 800d/77d is not truck-sized. The 80d or xxD family is. And the 5d is even bigger!

Going back to the 800d/77d, for me, and this is only me, the only serious weakness of these 2 canon models (or any canon models for that matter) is the lack of a proper 4k video. That may not mean a lot to you, but to me, it matters much as we do video a lot. But since this is not an issue with you, then your only other study will be if you will get the 800d or the 77d.  They are basically the same 98%. The difference is that the 77d has a top panel, a round dial for adjustment at the back, an AF-On button, intervalometer, and OVF auto shutoff of LCD sensor,  and maybe some other things. Your call!

Again, thanks for your time !

damcify wrote:

TL;DR Should I get a newer model Canon SLR or should I be switching to mirrorless for a more compact solution, but keeping image quality.

I currently own a 450D with 18-55 kit lens, 50 mm portrait and a 55-250 mm. Purchased in 2008/2009.

I enjoy photography just as a hobby, and I would classify myself as a holiday / family photographer, although I prefer taking pictures of non-people to my wifes dispair.

I will be the first to admit that I have started to use an iphone 7 plus for the family snaps, and use the SLR for shooting outdoor football (aka soccer) and indoor floorball (Swedish indoor hockey in sportshalls).

On holiday the SLR has served well for shooting windsurfing photos aswell as the touristic shooting.

I have read too much about what has happened the past 9 years, wrt m4/3, bridge (fz1000) cameras etc.. Have tried some different models in the store, and find many of the mirrorless models to have viewfinders I don't like - wavy / hard to see the full viewfinder due to being a glasses wearer.

After some persuasion from my eldest son I am looking for an upgrade. The reasons are: video support, better ISO for indoor sports shooting, and the fully articulated screen will be a joy (I missed that when going to the 450D from a powershot).

The question is, should I aim at a 77D/800D (or even a 760D) or is it time to switch to mirrorless e.g. m4/3 DMC G80. I feel the market is changing and SLRs are kind of old school. I enjoy taking photos, but don't have the ambition to have a great collection of lenses. If a bridge camera had been good enough I would get one.

dSLRs are not outdated. Actually, the 77D/800D is a nice upgrade to your current camera, especially the sensor (dual pixel), and the AF system (so don't go for the 760D), allowing even f8 AF.  The mirror-less have increased, but they are not yet overtaking the market if you look at sales states, not sure, maybe 20%.  Also Canon has a big range of lenses for many uses.

Any good advice?

Thanks!

Daniel

damcify wrote:

So maybe your reverse psychology is working on me

No Reverse Psychology, just radical honesty. There are only 3 serious limitation holding Smartphone domination:

1. Zoom - solve by iPhone 7 Plus 2X Telephoto sensor

2. Bokeh - solved by IPhone 7 portrait mode (getting more realistic with each updates)

3. lowlight - Not there Yet, but using Real Time Multi-frame processing Google Pixel and Samsung S8 has managed to produced better lowlight than iPhone 7. The latest HTC U11 produce the best LowLight photo of any android phones.

Camera Shootout - City at Night - HTC U11 vs Gala…: http://youtu.be/Hv5NsV88C1w

My point is the trend: smartphone are improving @a Pace DSLR and Mirrorless cannot keep up. Smartphone will only get better with each firmwares updates.

• Where is the Firmware update for Canon XSI?
• Why did Canon limits the big APSC DSLR to an ridiculous iso1600 Max limitation?

Japanese company are ill equip to deal with Smartphone revolution:

• Canon need to unlock iso3200 for XSI owner instead of forcing users to upgrade just to access iso3200.

• Canon Rebel still lack Kelvin WB adjustment even smartphone are now offering.

Dedicates camera is dying due to Stupid Japanese mindset that is still stuck in the 1980's. Soon the world will be split between $2000 Pro oriented DSLR and smartphone for everything else.

The new consumer Camera manufactures are

Apple, Samsung, HTC, Moto, OnePlus.

damcify wrote:

TL;DR Should I get a newer model Canon SLR or should I be switching to mirrorless for a more compact solution, but keeping image quality.

I currently own a 450D with 18-55 kit lens, 50 mm portrait and a 55-250 mm. Purchased in 2008/2009.

I enjoy photography just as a hobby, and I would classify myself as a holiday / family photographer, although I prefer taking pictures of non-people to my wifes dispair.

I will be the first to admit that I have started to use an iphone 7 plus for the family snaps, and use the SLR for shooting outdoor football (aka soccer) and indoor floorball (Swedish indoor hockey in sportshalls).

On holiday the SLR has served well for shooting windsurfing photos aswell as the touristic shooting.

I have read too much about what has happened the past 9 years, wrt m4/3, bridge (fz1000) cameras etc.. Have tried some different models in the store, and find many of the mirrorless models to have viewfinders I don't like - wavy / hard to see the full viewfinder due to being a glasses wearer.

After some persuasion from my eldest son I am looking for an upgrade. The reasons are: video support, better ISO for indoor sports shooting, and the fully articulated screen will be a joy (I missed that when going to the 450D from a powershot).

The question is, should I aim at a 77D/800D (or even a 760D) or is it time to switch to mirrorless e.g. m4/3 DMC G80. I feel the market is changing and SLRs are kind of old school. I enjoy taking photos, but don't have the ambition to have a great collection of lenses. If a bridge camera had been good enough I would get one.

Any good advice?

Thanks!

Daniel

Shot with Canon FF and crop for about ten years. I did get the T6s, which is good for what it is. For APSc, I would recommend Fuji.

damcify wrote:

For indoor sports the 77D is definitely better. AF of just about any SLR is better, although the most recent m43 cameras are much better. G80 is pretty good, but like all contrast detect AF system has troubles in continuous AF. Could pose a problem shooting sports inside.

Reading the DP review review of the 77D I understood the AF with OVF wasn't so good at subject tracking (ITR I believe it is called) They actually recommended live view instead. Can you explain your different viewpoints?

Thanks!

(Almost purchased a 77D......)

I think this refers more to video shooting. Also, "not as good" doesn't mean it is bad. Live view means that what you are looking at is what the sensor sees. I suppose the OSPDAF which is dual pixel is very much active because of that. With the mirror blocking the sensor and likely the shutter closed, I suspect the AF is bound to be different.