Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5

Started Apr 28, 2017 | Discussions
Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5
1

This is important enough for anybody interested in or using GH5.

Panasonic is planning to add 400mbps ALL-I video encoding for GH5 this summer, but that does not raise the bar of image quality for the videos recorded by the camera as ALL-I has much higher requirements for the bitrate (compared to IPB) for an equivalent image quality. I've created a petition for Panasonic to add support for high bitrate IPB modes into GH5.

If you like that idea, please sign the petition: https://www.change.org/p/panasonic-introduce-4k-4-2-2-ipb-400mbps-and-fhd-4-2-2-ipb-200mbps-modes-for-panasonic-gh5?recruiter=44141647&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

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OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
An important implication of having higher bitrate IPB codec available

Why do we need high bitrate IPB?

Having a higher bitrate IPB codec available would also make VLog-L much more usable in-camera, with lesser need for an external recorder. Currently, under 150mbps, VLog-L does not make much sense for in-camera shooting due to the high compression artifacts (often macro blocks get visible during grading).

Not using an external recorder while shooting in VLog-L enables a very mobile shooting with lots of freedom still available in post. It would also make VLog-L based workflow with high quality results more accessible cost wise.

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Wasabi Bob Contributing Member • Posts: 661
Re: An important implication of having higher bitrate IPB codec available
3

Do you really think these petitions have any effect? They don't! It's been proven that people who share a common interest (such as digital photography) will sign these petitions thinking that the more signatures, the greater the chances of making it happen. Had a close friend who worked for one of the major camera companies - he told me they laugh at these!

GodSpeaks
GodSpeaks Forum Pro • Posts: 13,997
I would rather see ProRes added (nt)
1
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The greatest of mankind's criminals are those who delude themselves into thinking they have done 'the right thing.'
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OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: An important implication of having higher bitrate IPB codec available

Panasonic does listen to its customers - a significant part of what GH5 is was shaped by the feedback they've received for GH4.

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OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: I would rather see ProRes added (nt)

ProRes has its own implication and that would affect the per-camera revenue. Besides that, I'm not sure the camera will be able to handle so much higher bitrates in-camera. And ProRes is already available in external recorders (e.g. from Atomos).

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Vesku Senior Member • Posts: 2,964
Re: Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5

GH5 has already high bitrate ipb. 6k photo has about 220Mbs h.265 10bit 30P. It is comparable to 400-500Mbs h.264 ipb and has much more resolution.

Wasabi Bob Contributing Member • Posts: 661
Re: An important implication of having higher bitrate IPB codec available

Brother Younger wrote:

Panasonic does listen to its customers - a significant part of what GH5 is was shaped by the feedback they've received for GH4.

!00% correct, but not from public "petitions".

OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5

Good point. The downside of 6K PHOTO video though is fixed frame rate of 30p. This means that the camera is capable of producing higher bitrate IPB video, although a different codec (H.265) is used in this case.

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OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: An important implication of having higher bitrate IPB codec available

No doubts, I'm just providing one more data point to them.

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Wasabi Bob Contributing Member • Posts: 661
Re: Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5

Brother Younger wrote:

Good point. The downside of 6K PHOTO video though is fixed frame rate of 30p. This means that the camera is capable of producing higher bitrate IPB video, although a different codec (H.265) is used in this case.

Yes, and currently anyone who might want to edit the video using H.265 may run into some difficulty. Some editing software may not support it, and those that do require a much more robust PC to handle the video. 6K photo was intended for photos, which it works very well for, but not for video.

Phocal
Phocal Senior Member • Posts: 2,528
Re: Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5
2

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 7,242
^^^ This! ^^^^

ProPres is the thing that would put GH5 to another level above every other that price range hybrid cameras. Now you need to get a older BlackMagic Pocket Cinema Camera to get that for Full HD with 13 stop DR...

The bitrate increasement doesn't anymore help on the video. The common H.264 doesn't benefit from it after good 12-20Mbits as the codec was designed to be running at 1-3Mbits output codec, never as recording format. The quality doesn't increase linearly but logarithmically.

Example:

The problem really is well presented as a pipe diameter, that you need to use to push through the data. The quality doesn't increase almost at all after specific point (ie. 20Mbit/s) when the codec is well done (like Panasonic gets it) and then you are just wasting the bitrate for tiny quality difference, that could be used otherwise better, like 4K that is 2x higher resolution with 4x more content so 20Mbits turns to be 80Mbits limit. Throw there a fancy LOG and you are compressing more data to get through that same pipe, but using it more efficiently, with compromise of the losing content in the first place by spreading the data to wider area.

ProRes would turn this otherway around by allowing to get the raw content in widely-used format and then just do all the processing on the computer. So everything that sensor gets would be pushed out to card. But its real benefit is just that you don't anymore use a external recorder to read full sensor data and store it as ProRes or what ever... But to get camera free to move in smaller size is the key here.

OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: ^^^ This! ^^^^

Thanks for an interesting detailed message.

The promised ALL-I 200Mbps 4:2:2/10 1080p is very close to ProRes 422, while the 4K at 400Mbps is roughly only a half of what is needed. I'm not sure that current state of the SDXC storage technology can handle 800Mbps (unless two cards are used in parallel, 400Mbps each). Recording externally is already there.

As for IPB... Based on the amount of love Panasonic engineering teams are putting into their video codecs, I do believe they can use higher bitrate within IPB codec well. The important questions here are: will the hardware match the requirements for that and will Panasonic product management want to do this change.

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OP Brother Younger New Member • Posts: 9
Re: Please sign a petition to Panasonic to add high-bitrate IPB modes for GH5

Agree, but it's good to have this option available. I'm using proxies so I have no problem editing 6K PHOTO videos.

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GodSpeaks
GodSpeaks Forum Pro • Posts: 13,997
Re: ^^^ This! ^^^^
1

Tommi K1 wrote:

The bitrate increasement doesn't anymore help on the video. The common H.264 doesn't benefit from it after good 12-20Mbits as the codec was designed to be running at 1-3Mbits output codec, never as recording format. The quality doesn't increase linearly but logarithmically.

This is why (the bold bit) the GH5 NEEDS a better codec.

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Vesku Senior Member • Posts: 2,964
Re: ^^^ This! ^^^^
1

Tommi K1 wrote

...The common H.264 doesn't benefit from it after good 12-20Mbit....

My GH4 100Mbs 1080P looks visible better than 50Mbs.

How about GH2 hacks. 100Mbs looks much better than original 20Mbs.

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