Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Started Apr 4, 2017 | Discussions
Tubbycub Regular Member • Posts: 242
Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

 Tubbycub's gear list:Tubbycub's gear list
Sony RX1 Sony a7 Sony a7R II Sony FE 35mm F2.8 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +2 more
gwexou Contributing Member • Posts: 867
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
3

If you havn't had any experience with this kind of lenses, i'd suggest to buy the 12mm. It's plenty wide enough. The difficulty with these very wide lenses is not the lack of AF (that's an easy thing to adjust), but it's the fact that any small movement you make any any direction will change greatly what you photograph. So the wider you go, the harder it is to frame properly and keep the scenery "natural".

Whichever way you go, you're making a goof choice. Voigtlanlder lenses are well built and produce great results (I own a 15mm f4.5 which is also a fantastic lens).

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

 gwexou's gear list:gwexou's gear list
Sony RX100 VI Sony a7R III Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Voigtlander 15mm F4.5 Super Wide Heliar Sony FE 24mm F1.4 GM +5 more
OP Tubbycub Regular Member • Posts: 242
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
1

gwenhael appere wrote:

If you havn't had any experience with this kind of lenses, i'd suggest to buy the 12mm. It's plenty wide enough. The difficulty with these very wide lenses is not the lack of AF (that's an easy thing to adjust), but it's the fact that any small movement you make any any direction will change greatly what you photograph. So the wider you go, the harder it is to frame properly and keep the scenery "natural".

Whichever way you go, you're making a goof choice. Voigtlanlder lenses are well built and produce great results (I own a 15mm f4.5 which is also a fantastic lens).

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

Thank you and VERY valid!

 Tubbycub's gear list:Tubbycub's gear list
Sony RX1 Sony a7 Sony a7R II Sony FE 35mm F2.8 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +2 more
Bashir Lunat
Bashir Lunat Senior Member • Posts: 1,018
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
2

I have a 12mm and also a 15mm to use on Leica and Sony with an adapter.

Sorry I dont have a 10mm but just a snapshop below with 12mm on Leica.

You will be making a wise dicision with either of them.

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 12,031
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
5

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

To get some ideas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/111458433@N02/albums/72157668930670325

This has images with and without perspective (keystone) correction.

The 10mm allows for a lot of keystone correction, correction has the effect of narrowing the FOV, while removing the convergence (buildings falling backwards) of parallel lines.

It lets you 'tilt' the image in post-edit, at the cost of lowering the resolution.

It is also a lens to be more creative it.

Traditionally, these FLs were 'fisheye', and you had to de-fish them for rectalinear projections. These rectalinear lenses don't need this, and make it easier to work with them, however, edge distortion (stretching) increases as the FL decreases. E.g. you cannot have people near the edge of the frame, as it will appear weird.

There was a thread on the FMforum, repeated in other reviews, alleging that the wider CV lens is less sharp. This has been debunked. The 10mm is as sharp as the 12mm, but the image center is more compressed (smaller) and the edge stretch effects are more pronounced, causing more magnification in comparisons, hence showing more softness.

For nature shots, and practical applications, the CV15 is plenty wide. The CV12 is dramatically wider, while the CV10 is in a league of its own. At these focal length, every mm has a dramatic difference in FOV. FOV's of the CV15, CV12, and CV10 are 130, 120, and 110 degrees respectively, and these differences are very noticeable.

Horizon positioning and leveling becomes progressively more important as the FL reduces. You'll notice that in a lot of images the horizon is in the center, which does not need keystone correction. You can crop the lower half in such images, if the foreground is uninteresting. Usually, the foreground becomes part of the composition, if not the subject itself.

You also have CA and other issues to contend with in post-edit. The wider the angle, the more pronounced.

Since your gear already lists a B18, which has a rather 'practical' WA FOV, I'd recommend going for the CV10. The B18 already shows plenty of keystone distortion and you should already be aware of how to frame with a UWA.

For more comments read:

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-5-6-e-hyper-wide-heliar/

http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-f5-6-hyper-wide-heliar-sony-e-mount/

http://mirrorlesscomparison.com/e-mount-lenses/voigtlander-10mm-vs-12mm-vs-15mm/

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2016/03/22/voigtlander-fe-10mm-f5-6-and-15mm-f4-5/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/08/04/experiences-with-the-new-laowa-12mm-f2-8-zero-d-by-dierk-topp/

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1451524/0

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Sony a6000 Sony a5100 Sony a7R II Carl Zeiss Biogon T* 2/35 ZM Voigtlander 35mm F1.4 Nokton +35 more
OP Tubbycub Regular Member • Posts: 242
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

blue_skies wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

To get some ideas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/111458433@N02/albums/72157668930670325

This has images with and without perspective (keystone) correction.

The 10mm allows for a lot of keystone correction, correction has the effect of narrowing the FOV, while removing the convergence (buildings falling backwards) of parallel lines.

It let's you to 'tilt' in post-edit, at the cost of lowering the resolution.

It is also a lens to be more creative it.

Traditionally, these FLs were 'fisheye', and you had to de-fish them for rectalinear projections. These rectalinear lenses don't need this, and make it easier to work with them, however, edge distortion (stretching) increases as the FL decreases. E.g. you cannot have people near the edge of the frame, as it will appear weird.

There was a thread on the FMforum, repeated in other reviews, alleging that the wider CV lens is less sharp. This has been debunked. The 10mm is as sharp as the 12mm, but the image center is more compressed (smaller) and the edge stretch effects are more pronounced, causing more magnification in comparisons, hence showing more softness.

For nature shots, and practical applications, the CV15 is plenty wide. The CV12 is dramatically wider, while the CV10 is in a league of its own. At these focal length, every mm has a dramatic difference in FOV. FOV's of the CV15, CV12, and CV10 are 130, 120, and 110 degrees respectively, and these differences are very noticeable.

Horizon positioning and leveling becomes progressively more important as the FL reduces. You'll notice that in a lot of images the horizon is in the center, which does not need keystone correction. You can crop the lower half in such images, if the foreground is uninteresting. Usually, the foreground becomes part of the composition, if not the subject itself.

You also have CA and other issues to contend with in post-edit. The wider the angle, the more pronounced.

Since your gear already lists a B18, which has a rather 'practical' WA FOV, I'd recommend going for the CV10. The B18 already shows plenty of keystone distortion and you should already be aware of how to frame with a UWA.

For more comments read:

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-5-6-e-hyper-wide-heliar/

http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-f5-6-hyper-wide-heliar-sony-e-mount/

http://mirrorlesscomparison.com/e-mount-lenses/voigtlander-10mm-vs-12mm-vs-15mm/

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2016/03/22/voigtlander-fe-10mm-f5-6-and-15mm-f4-5/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/08/04/experiences-with-the-new-laowa-12mm-f2-8-zero-d-by-dierk-topp/

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1451524/0

Thanks Henry.

Will def check out the links. Had read some of them today.

I think I'd much prefer the 12 now having read some more about this lens.

Cheers.

 Tubbycub's gear list:Tubbycub's gear list
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Neurad1
Neurad1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,498
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
1

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I have owned both. I purchased the 10mm FE mount first. It has pretty abysmally soft corners. Really disappointing.

I returned it and later purchased the 12 mm FE mount. I have been delighted with it. Very sharp, even in the corners. But as you probably already know, it is tricky to shoot well with a lens this wide. I'm still learning.... and waiting for the new Laowa 15mm...

 Neurad1's gear list:Neurad1's gear list
Sony RX1 Sony RX100 III Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus PEN E-PL5 +44 more
Neurad1
Neurad1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,498
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Neurad1 wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I have owned both. I purchased the 10mm FE mount first. It has pretty abysmally soft corners. Really disappointing. I tried hard to ensure that this was not due to user error but could not ever get the corners to appear sharp....focusing differently, stopping down, etc.

I returned it and later purchased the 12 mm FE mount. I have been delighted with it.  I don't have to struggle to get images that are very sharp, even in the corners. But as you probably already know, it is tricky to shoot well with a lens this wide. I'm still learning.... and waiting for the new Laowa 15mm...

 Neurad1's gear list:Neurad1's gear list
Sony RX1 Sony RX100 III Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus PEN E-PL5 +44 more
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 8,068
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
1

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

Anything wider than 21mm looks very unnatural and distorted to me. But that's just me.

Have you tried to take multiple frames with your B18 and stitch them together?

blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 12,031
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
2

Neurad1 wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I have owned both. I purchased the 10mm FE mount first. It has pretty abysmally soft corners. Really disappointing.

Show some shots?

Here is a scene for judging corner performance - it is not so bad?

I returned it and later purchased the 12 mm FE mount. I have been delighted with it. Very sharp, even in the corners. But as you probably already know, it is tricky to shoot well with a lens this wide. I'm still learning.... and waiting for the new Laowa 15mm...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Sony a6000 Sony a5100 Sony a7R II Carl Zeiss Biogon T* 2/35 ZM Voigtlander 35mm F1.4 Nokton +35 more
OP Tubbycub Regular Member • Posts: 242
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
1

BBQue wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

Anything wider than 21mm looks very unnatural and distorted to me. But that's just me.

Have you tried to take multiple frames with your B18 and stitch them together?

No I haven't. I should give that a go.

 Tubbycub's gear list:Tubbycub's gear list
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nandbytes Veteran Member • Posts: 6,123
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Get the 10mm and crop if you need 12mm FoV and in APS-C mode it'll be 15mm FoV. You'll be left with plenty pixels on A7RII

-- hide signature --

Focus on what you have, not on what you don't.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nandbytes/

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OP Tubbycub Regular Member • Posts: 242
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

nandbytes wrote:

Get the 10mm and crop if you need 12mm FoV and in APS-C mode it'll be 15mm FoV. You'll be left with plenty pixels on A7RII

Now that's a thought. However wouldn't the centre look allot smaller as it does compared to the 12 when shot at 10. Sorry this stuff I have no idea about!

 Tubbycub's gear list:Tubbycub's gear list
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Neurad1
Neurad1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,498
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Tubbycub wrote:

nandbytes wrote:

Get the 10mm and crop if you need 12mm FoV and in APS-C mode it'll be 15mm FoV. You'll be left with plenty pixels on A7RII

Now that's a thought. However wouldn't the centre look allot smaller as it does compared to the 12 when shot at 10. Sorry this stuff I have no idea about!

Yes, and things in the background look even more distant. Think of UWA as the opposite of a telephoto. You see more side to side and distance between objects near to far is stretched to a greater degree with WA. A telephoto includes a smaller FOV side to side but brings far and near closer together.

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Neurad1
Neurad1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,498
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
1

blue_skies wrote:

Neurad1 wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I have owned both. I purchased the 10mm FE mount first. It has pretty abysmally soft corners. Really disappointing.

Show some shots?

Here is a scene for judging corner performance - it is not so bad?

I returned it and later purchased the 12 mm FE mount. I have been delighted with it. Very sharp, even in the corners. But as you probably already know, it is tricky to shoot well with a lens this wide. I'm still learning.... and waiting for the new Laowa 15mm...

I made a post in the past with multiple shots. Did quite a bit of experimenting with the lens before returning it. You have a good copy. I did not. I have no complaints with my 12. It's sharp from edge to edge. I don't really want to get into a debate about whether I was using the 10mm incorrectly.

Here are a few images from the lens. I deleted some of the images from the folder since returning the lens, but a few remain:

https://flic.kr/s/aHskGhVZsJ

 Neurad1's gear list:Neurad1's gear list
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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 8,068
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

blue_skies wrote:

Neurad1 wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I have owned both. I purchased the 10mm FE mount first. It has pretty abysmally soft corners. Really disappointing.

Show some shots?

Here is a scene for judging corner performance - it is not so bad?

I returned it and later purchased the 12 mm FE mount. I have been delighted with it. Very sharp, even in the corners. But as you probably already know, it is tricky to shoot well with a lens this wide. I'm still learning.... and waiting for the new Laowa 15mm...

Very sharp images !!! Those sunglasses (image #2) image surely beat the typical brick wall test. Image #1 shows the gross linear distortion of super wide angle lenses that make it very hard to make a successful composition.

Will_Mayall New Member • Posts: 1
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

I have the 10mm FE lens and love it! Yes, it takes some time to learn how to properly compose images but, when you do, the results are stunning.

I've used it for astrophotography and landscapes but the primary use has been for real estate. Nothing else will give you results like these:

http://620madrona.com

Or this:

Sunset in Santa Cruz. Taken with 10mm Voigtlander FE mount. Note distortion of people on edges.

Neurad1
Neurad1 Senior Member • Posts: 2,498
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?
2

Will_Mayall wrote:

I have the 10mm FE lens and love it! Yes, it takes some time to learn how to properly compose images but, when you do, the results are stunning.

I've used it for astrophotography and landscapes but the primary use has been for real estate. Nothing else will give you results like these:

http://620madrona.com

Or this:

Sunset in Santa Cruz. Taken with 10mm Voigtlander FE mount. Note distortion of people on edges.

Here's are a couple shots with the 12, for comparison.

12 mm CV FE mount

http://www.flickr.com/photos/joelcure/

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Lightshow
Lightshow Veteran Member • Posts: 7,457
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

blue_skies wrote:

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

To get some ideas: https://www.flickr.com/photos/111458433@N02/albums/72157668930670325

This has images with and without perspective (keystone) correction.

The 10mm allows for a lot of keystone correction, correction has the effect of narrowing the FOV, while removing the convergence (buildings falling backwards) of parallel lines.

It lets you 'tilt' the image in post-edit, at the cost of lowering the resolution.

I think you mean shift, tilt changes the angle of the plane of focus.

It is also a lens to be more creative it.

Traditionally, these FLs were 'fisheye', and you had to de-fish them for rectalinear projections. These rectalinear lenses don't need this, and make it easier to work with them, however, edge distortion (stretching) increases as the FL decreases. E.g. you cannot have people near the edge of the frame, as it will appear weird.

There was a thread on the FMforum, repeated in other reviews, alleging that the wider CV lens is less sharp. This has been debunked. The 10mm is as sharp as the 12mm, but the image center is more compressed (smaller) and the edge stretch effects are more pronounced, causing more magnification in comparisons, hence showing more softness.

For nature shots, and practical applications, the CV15 is plenty wide. The CV12 is dramatically wider, while the CV10 is in a league of its own. At these focal length, every mm has a dramatic difference in FOV. FOV's of the CV15, CV12, and CV10 are 130, 120, and 110 degrees respectively, and these differences are very noticeable.

Horizon positioning and leveling becomes progressively more important as the FL reduces. You'll notice that in a lot of images the horizon is in the center, which does not need keystone correction. You can crop the lower half in such images, if the foreground is uninteresting. Usually, the foreground becomes part of the composition, if not the subject itself.

You also have CA and other issues to contend with in post-edit. The wider the angle, the more pronounced.

Since your gear already lists a B18, which has a rather 'practical' WA FOV, I'd recommend going for the CV10. The B18 already shows plenty of keystone distortion and you should already be aware of how to frame with a UWA.

For more comments read:

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-5-6-e-hyper-wide-heliar/

http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-voigtlander-10mm-f5-6-hyper-wide-heliar-sony-e-mount/

http://mirrorlesscomparison.com/e-mount-lenses/voigtlander-10mm-vs-12mm-vs-15mm/

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/2016/03/22/voigtlander-fe-10mm-f5-6-and-15mm-f4-5/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/08/04/experiences-with-the-new-laowa-12mm-f2-8-zero-d-by-dierk-topp/

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1451524/0

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

I already have the 15III in M mount, and I love it, because of that,  I was planning on getting the 10, but having seen all the issues it has had with regard to QC, and somewhat mushy corners, I held off getting it(plus the the camera store doesn't have plans to bring any in, and Camera Quest won't ship to Canada) so I can see if the 12 had the same QC issues, well, after seeing many pictures from both the 10 & 12, I've decided to change plans and get the new 12, the corners look much better, QC seems much better.

The old version of the 12 was an already good lens, this one looks much improved.

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MRK 2010 Regular Member • Posts: 180
Re: Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm?

Tubbycub wrote:

Has anyone here had much experience with both of these lenses?

Voigtlander 10mm or 12mm

I'm looking at purchasing a Voigtlander (My first manual lens).

For architecture and nature shots.

Look forward to hearing some feedback. I've read the 10mm can be quite challenging.

Cheers.

I bought the 10mm ....largely because the 12mm wasn't released until later.

When the composition is right the 10mm offers a uniquely ultra wide perspective...but the moment you start pointing the lens slightly upwards or downwards you have to contend with distortion.

You can find my photos taken with the 10mm lens here. Some photos work better than others

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mattrkeyworth/albums/72157666830730533

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