FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

Started Mar 9, 2017 | User reviews
mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase
2

My Sony experience started with the NEX3, then the NEX 6, the A6000, A6300 and A7. Last year, I was agonizing over the question whether to stay APS-C and FF, or just APS-C, or just FF. At one point, I was sure APS-C is all I need. In fact, I sold my A7 which was not bad but behind the a6300 in image quality and speed. The A7 II only added IBIS. Then came the A7RII. When I saw the price tag, I immediately promised myself do not even think about buying it. No way. 42MP are way more than I need.

That promise didn't hold long. Intrigued by the additional IQ I took the camera for a test - and never returned it. There have been plenty of reviews that tell you about the good, the bad, and the ugly. For me, it is 90% complete satisfaction. What needs to be improved in the next model is operating speed. What could be fixed with a firmware update is the configutration of the menu, in particular AF assist behavior so that one can chose the highst magnification to be displayed first. I find it difficult to MF at the lower magnifaction even with focus peaking. But even more important would be an option to assign FF/Super 35 to a function button. Why? The fact that the A7RII doubles as an APS-C camera is for me one of the most important features. Resolution in Super35 mode is more than enough. When I am not out with all of my gear, I can take the E18105/4 as an alrounder, or can use only two or three FF lenses to cover a wide range from 15mm to more than 200mm. My favorite travel set up is the Voigtländer 15mm (23mm), the FE35/2.8 (53mm) and the Canon EF 100/2 (150mm). With the Loxia 21mm (32mm) and the FE55mm (83mm) you can travel even lighter yet cover a focal range wider than most standard zooms offer at better IQ. Of course, on could also always crop in post, for which the A7RII offers plenty of headroom. But I prefer seeing on location how the framing works out. If you combine the price of an a7ii with that of an A6300 (or A6500), all of a sudden the price for the A7RII starts to look reasonable

Hope this helps some of you make a decision.

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rjjr Forum Pro • Posts: 14,768
I've already decided...

I rent an A7RII when I feel the need for FF for a particular job.

Bob Tullis
Bob Tullis Forum Pro • Posts: 39,722
It's even easier to justify than that
3

How many megapixels does the A7r2 have?

What do galaxy hitchhikers in the know answer when asked about the meaning of life?

Bingo!

-- hide signature --

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: It's even easier to justify than that

Bob Tullis wrote:

How many megapixels does the A7r2 have?

What do galaxy hitchhikers in the know answer when asked about the meaning of life?

Bingo!

You nearly got me there ... it is hard to resist such number magics ... but I will stay with my A7 for a while until there is a not too expensive full frame camera with much better tracking autofocus.

Sure, I sometimes miss in-camera stabilisation and I would be better served with a less reflective sensor, but for now the A7 is my camera!

The last full moon this spring before the midnight sun enters the sky in Svalbard at 78 degrees north - my A7 does an excellent job even at night in the icy cold polar climate. Panorama from four frames. 21 mm lens. Plenty of detail for close inspection of a 2-3 meter wide high quality print!

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,945
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

My Sony experience started with the NEX3, then the NEX 6, the A6000, A6300 and A7. Last year, I was agonizing over the question whether to stay APS-C and FF, or just APS-C, or just FF. At one point, I was sure APS-C is all I need. In fact, I sold my A7 which was not bad but behind the a6300 in image quality and speed.

Huh?

Or better, if true for you, you don't need FF...

The A7 II only added IBIS. Then came the A7RII. When I saw the price tag, I immediately promised myself do not even think about buying it. No way. 42MP are way more than I need.

Obviously, you like cropping

That promise didn't hold long. Intrigued by the additional IQ I took the camera for a test - and never returned it. There have been plenty of reviews that tell you about the good, the bad, and the ugly. For me, it is 90% complete satisfaction.

Strange that the A7 did not deliver for you, it did for many of us.

What needs to be improved in the next model is operating speed. What could be fixed with a firmware update is the configutration of the menu, in particular AF assist behavior so that one can chose the highst magnification to be displayed first. I find it difficult to MF at the lower magnifaction even with focus peaking. But even more important would be an option to assign FF/Super 35 to a function button. Why? The fact that the A7RII doubles as an APS-C camera is for me one of the most important features.

Sure, it can double. It is also double the bulk, and triple the cost.

Resolution in Super35 mode is more than enough.

You are a videographer?

When I am not out with all of my gear, I can take the E18105/4 as an alrounder, or can use only two or three FF lenses to cover a wide range from 15mm to more than 200mm. My favorite travel set up is the Voigtländer 15mm (23mm), the FE35/2.8 (53mm) and the Canon EF 100/2 (150mm). With the Loxia 21mm (32mm) and the FE55mm (83mm) you can travel even lighter yet cover a focal range wider than most standard zooms offer at better IQ. Of course, on could also always crop in post, for which the A7RII offers plenty of headroom.

Yes, cropping in the A7rII using APS-C lenses is an idea that more and more people are open too. It does allow for much lighter travel, while not giving up the FF when needed or desired.

But I prefer seeing on location how the framing works out. If you combine the price of an a7ii with that of an A6300 (or A6500), all of a sudden the price for the A7RII starts to look reasonable

Rather (used?) A7ii + A6000. Still cost half that of a (used) A7rII.

Or better, one camera (A7rII) versus four cameras (A7ii, A7ii, A6000, A6000).

Hope this helps some of you make a decision.

With as many lenses as you outline, the A7ii would be a fine camera.

If S35 is important, why not look at the A7sII? The A7rII is a compromise for video, although it is the 'next best' in the Sony lineup of FF cameras.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase
1

blue_skies wrote:

mcslsk wrote:

My Sony experience started with the NEX3, then the NEX 6, the A6000, A6300 and A7. Last year, I was agonizing over the question whether to stay APS-C and FF, or just APS-C, or just FF. At one point, I was sure APS-C is all I need. In fact, I sold my A7 which was not bad but behind the a6300 in image quality and speed.

Huh?

Or better, if true for you, you don't need FF...

There is a significant difference in how teh a6300 senor and software work vs. A7 and A7II. The a6300 is closer to the A7R2.

The A7 II only added IBIS. Then came the A7RII. When I saw the price tag, I immediately promised myself do not even think about buying it. No way. 42MP are way more than I need.

Obviously, you like cropping

Yes

That promise didn't hold long. Intrigued by the additional IQ I took the camera for a test - and never returned it. There have been plenty of reviews that tell you about the good, the bad, and the ugly. For me, it is 90% complete satisfaction.

Strange that the A7 did not deliver for you, it did for many of us.

Problem 1: AF with adapted lenses. Problem 2: Less image quality than A6300.

What needs to be improved in the next model is operating speed. What could be fixed with a firmware update is the configutration of the menu, in particular AF assist behavior so that one can chose the highst magnification to be displayed first. I find it difficult to MF at the lower magnifaction even with focus peaking. But even more important would be an option to assign FF/Super 35 to a function button. Why? The fact that the A7RII doubles as an APS-C camera is for me one of the most important features.

Sure, it can double. It is also double the bulk, and triple the cost.

It doesn't double bulk. In fact, the A7RII with the FE35/2.8 is rather compact. So it depends.

Resolution in Super35 mode is more than enough.

You are a videographer?

No, I mean APS-C

When I am not out with all of my gear, I can take the E18105/4 as an alrounder, or can use only two or three FF lenses to cover a wide range from 15mm to more than 200mm. My favorite travel set up is the Voigtländer 15mm (23mm), the FE35/2.8 (53mm) and the Canon EF 100/2 (150mm). With the Loxia 21mm (32mm) and the FE55mm (83mm) you can travel even lighter yet cover a focal range wider than most standard zooms offer at better IQ. Of course, on could also always crop in post, for which the A7RII offers plenty of headroom.

Yes, cropping in the A7rII using APS-C lenses is an idea that more and more people are open too. It does allow for much lighter travel, while not giving up the FF when needed or desired.

But I prefer seeing on location how the framing works out. If you combine the price of an a7ii with that of an A6300 (or A6500), all of a sudden the price for the A7RII starts to look reasonable

Rather (used?) A7ii + A6000. Still cost half that of a (used) A7rII.

But A7II and A6000 don't work well with adapted lenses, and have old sensor technology. But of course, this post was not about saving money.

Or better, one camera (A7rII) versus four cameras (A7ii, A7ii, A6000, A6000).

??

Hope this helps some of you make a decision.

With as many lenses as you outline, the A7ii would be a fine camera.

No, because of adapted lenses and the older sensor technology

If S35 is important, why not look at the A7sII? The A7rII is a compromise for video, although it is the 'next best' in the Sony lineup of FF cameras.

Again, misunderstanding. Don't do any video.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

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blue_skies
blue_skies Forum Pro • Posts: 11,945
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

mcslsk wrote:

My Sony experience started with the NEX3, then the NEX 6, the A6000, A6300 and A7. Last year, I was agonizing over the question whether to stay APS-C and FF, or just APS-C, or just FF. At one point, I was sure APS-C is all I need. In fact, I sold my A7 which was not bad but behind the a6300 in image quality and speed.

Huh?

Or better, if true for you, you don't need FF...

There is a significant difference in how teh a6300 senor and software work vs. A7 and A7II. The a6300 is closer to the A7R2.

Eh, no: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A6500-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Sony-A7-II___1127_1035_996

Check the SNR and DR graphs (under Measurements).  You can also compare the Scores.

The A6300/A6500 is still a stop behind in ISO, but it matches the A7ii in DR at lower ISO values. It is not close to the A7rII.

In fact, the A6300/A6500 is very close to the A6000. The only change is the one EV increase in DR.

Mind you, this is downsampled to 8Mp, at full resolution the differences are more visible.

As to how the software works, the A6300/A6500 is ahead of the A7rII. It does incorporate the faster processor to enable third party adapters (A6000 lags here), but it has a faster PDAF grid and lower resolution. The A6300/A6500 is a much snappier camera than the A7rII.

The A7 got a firmware upgrade which makes it much closer to the A7ii in features, but the menus are slightly different. The A7ii in operation is close to the A7rII, not to the A6000. The A6000 was already a snappier camera. Some features (e.g. Eye-AF only existed on the A7 cameras).

The A7 II only added IBIS. Then came the A7RII. When I saw the price tag, I immediately promised myself do not even think about buying it. No way. 42MP are way more than I need.

Obviously, you like cropping

Yes

That promise didn't hold long. Intrigued by the additional IQ I took the camera for a test - and never returned it. There have been plenty of reviews that tell you about the good, the bad, and the ugly. For me, it is 90% complete satisfaction.

Strange that the A7 did not deliver for you, it did for many of us.

Problem 1: AF with adapted lenses. Problem 2: Less image quality than A6300.

What needs to be improved in the next model is operating speed. What could be fixed with a firmware update is the configutration of the menu, in particular AF assist behavior so that one can chose the highst magnification to be displayed first. I find it difficult to MF at the lower magnifaction even with focus peaking. But even more important would be an option to assign FF/Super 35 to a function button. Why? The fact that the A7RII doubles as an APS-C camera is for me one of the most important features.

Sure, it can double. It is also double the bulk, and triple the cost.

It doesn't double bulk. In fact, the A7RII with the FE35/2.8 is rather compact. So it depends.

Resolution in Super35 mode is more than enough.

You are a videographer?

No, I mean APS-C

When I am not out with all of my gear, I can take the E18105/4 as an alrounder, or can use only two or three FF lenses to cover a wide range from 15mm to more than 200mm. My favorite travel set up is the Voigtländer 15mm (23mm), the FE35/2.8 (53mm) and the Canon EF 100/2 (150mm). With the Loxia 21mm (32mm) and the FE55mm (83mm) you can travel even lighter yet cover a focal range wider than most standard zooms offer at better IQ. Of course, on could also always crop in post, for which the A7RII offers plenty of headroom.

Yes, cropping in the A7rII using APS-C lenses is an idea that more and more people are open too. It does allow for much lighter travel, while not giving up the FF when needed or desired.

But I prefer seeing on location how the framing works out. If you combine the price of an a7ii with that of an A6300 (or A6500), all of a sudden the price for the A7RII starts to look reasonable

Rather (used?) A7ii + A6000. Still cost half that of a (used) A7rII.

But A7II and A6000 don't work well with adapted lenses, and have old sensor technology. But of course, this post was not about saving money.

The A6000 has restrictions, not the A7ii. It works fine with 'smart' adapted lenses.

Dumb adapted lenses always worked.

Or better, one camera (A7rII) versus four cameras (A7ii, A7ii, A6000, A6000).

??

Expressed in cost (or dollars).

Hope this helps some of you make a decision.

With as many lenses as you outline, the A7ii would be a fine camera.

No, because of adapted lenses and the older sensor technology

You keep saying this, but this 'older sensor technology' still delivers higher IQ. The graphs don't lie.

If S35 is important, why not look at the A7sII? The A7rII is a compromise for video, although it is the 'next best' in the Sony lineup of FF cameras.

Again, misunderstanding. Don't do any video.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

The obvious question that comes to mind is whether or not the A7rII in crop mode scores above or below the A6300/A6500. My bet is that it may still score higher, due to BSI. But you'd lose some detail, 18Mp versus 24Mp.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

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Bob Tullis
Bob Tullis Forum Pro • Posts: 39,722
Re: It's even easier to justify than that

Magnar W wrote:

Bob Tullis wrote:

How many megapixels does the A7r2 have?

What do galaxy hitchhikers in the know answer when asked about the meaning of life?

Bingo!

You nearly got me there ... it is hard to resist such number magics ... but I will stay with my A7 for a while until there is a not too expensive full frame camera with much better tracking autofocus.

Sure, I sometimes miss in-camera stabilisation and I would be better served with a less reflective sensor, but for now the A7 is my camera!

For what you do, and how you do it. . . you're a role model IMO.

42mp can be a crutch, too.   I'm using it to avoid zooms, and just take advantage of the crop ability as is necessary.   Well, for the on the go sort of practices, at least.   And then there's the demand on computer resources, especially if using uncompressed RAW.

The last full moon this spring before the midnight sun enters the sky in Svalbard at 78 degrees north - my A7 does an excellent job even at night in the icy cold polar climate. Panorama from four frames. 21 mm lens. Plenty of detail for close inspection of a 2-3 meter wide high quality print!

I can't quite express how much I admire work like this, and this particularly.

-- hide signature --

...Bob, NYC
.
"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
.
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PWPhotography Forum Pro • Posts: 10,686
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

In fact, I sold my A7 which was not bad but behind the a6300 in image quality and speed.

From where you conclude A7 is behind A6300 in IQ? If you check DPR or IR lab samples, it shows A7 is better in IQ because of larger sensor size - in resolution with comparable lens when frame into the same AOV and in shadow at base ISO or entire noise level at high ISOs.

DXO A6300 vs A7 sensor compare

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase
1

You are right about the A7II and the AF with adapted lenses. But it still has a worse nosie pattern than the A7RII (check the comaprison tool here at ISO6400). And APS-C crop mode results in a low resolution image. Don't think that the A7RII crop mode is better than an image from the A6300/A6500. But it is just as good which makes me say that I have purchased two cameras in one.

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase
1

A7 has a "less pleasing" noise pattern, arguably more noise. And it doesn't have uncompressed RAW, which leads to color shift in the shadows when pushing.

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rsf3127 Regular Member • Posts: 378
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

I am waiting eagerly for an APS-c sized sensor camera that has better IQ than A7. Maybe in a couple of years.

In the meanwhile, I am dealing with its UI shortcomings, but IQ is not a concern for sure.

Low shadow noise is the major advantage over APS-c bodies. It is simply in another class.

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PWPhotography Forum Pro • Posts: 10,686
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

A7 has a "less pleasing" noise pattern, arguably more noise. And it doesn't have uncompressed RAW, which leads to color shift in the shadows when pushing.

Which only means A6300 has more NR built-in that you can apply in software.  You cannot separate details from noise such as in DPR lab test.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=sony_a6300&attr13_1=sony_a7&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr16_0=3200&attr16_1=3200&attr171_0=off&normalization=full&widget=318&x=-0.2104&y=-0.7753145596165368

As compressed RAW, you will only see this issue in bright edges after aggressively pushing up shadows in evening photos especially.  Otherwise it's not a big deal.  I still own A7r which also only supports compressed RAW and don't find it's a big deal.

Nevertheless I am glad you could justify A7r II that is in a different league.

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: It's even easier to justify than that
1

That would be too easy, wouldn't it? I think in short, like you, I appreciate the option to "zoom" with my primes.

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

A7 has a "less pleasing" noise pattern, arguably more noise.

Depends a lot on how you use the camera and post process your work.

And it doesn't have uncompressed RAW,

True.

which leads to color shift in the shadows when pushing.

False.

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

rsf3127 wrote:

I am waiting eagerly for an APS-c sized sensor camera that has better IQ than A7. Maybe in a couple of years.

And then full frame is 2.3 x ahead of aps-c (the surface area of the sensors compared).

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

Magnar W wrote:

mcslsk wrote:

A7 has a "less pleasing" noise pattern, arguably more noise.

Depends a lot on how you use the camera and post process your work.

Agreed. And I do that a lot.

And it doesn't have uncompressed RAW,

True.

which leads to color shift in the shadows when pushing.

False.

It may not be the compression but the 14 vs. 12bit file. All I know is that if you push shadows quite a bit on the A7 (and A6000), you get a purple color cast that is hard to remove.

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: It's even easier to justify than that

Bob Tullis wrote:

For what you do, and how you do it. . . you're a role model IMO.

Thanks a lot! I am just a person that enjoy using the camera, playing around a bit with post processing, and that love pictures and art (and all kinds of music)!

I can't quite express how much I admire work like this, and this particularly.

Thanks a lot again!

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Magnar W
Magnar W Veteran Member • Posts: 4,994
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

mcslsk wrote:

It may not be the compression but the 14 vs. 12bit file. All I know is that if you push shadows quite a bit on the A7 (and A6000), you get a purple color cast that is hard to remove.

This happens when you push the files so much that you are close to the noise floor - close to the limits of where the sensor can differ between a useable signal and noise.

When exposing properly, this shound not be a problem, not even for low light scenes. Taking some HDR exposures might be helpful to avoid poor shadow data (tons better than any Canon camera, though!).

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OP mcslsk Veteran Member • Posts: 5,719
Re: FF & APS-C: How to justify the A7RII purchase

I am often taking images in low light with little time to porper set up and expose, high dynamic range. So being able to push shadows to the limits is important for me. But of course I agree in principle.

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