Sports / Wildlife - shooting - 1/8000th sec, SD1M (Merrill)...

Hello:

As I think more about my SD1M (Merrill) camera, and "limitations" (or 'perceived') short comings, I was thinking, for the camera being able to shoot at the high shutter speed of:

1/8000th of a second, (which is pretty FAST to me), wondering WHY (myself of course included), there are NOT many - hardly any "sports / wildlife" actions types of shots, with that camera?

If the camera's designs are providing us (owners / users) - doesn't it seem "logical" that we should be able to (would be), using this camera for those types of scenes / subjects?

We also have the ability on the other end of the spectrum, to (default) shoot - B (Bulb) = 30 secs, and IF we enable the "Extended Mode" - up to 120 secs (2 minutes).

Now, as previously discussed, shooting with the Higher ISO (beyond) ISO 800 - there is a mix bag of opinions on the IQ capable - as the resulting noise levels are too "unusable".

So, just thinking, nothing at all scientific - IF all these potential "settings" are available for us to choose from, must be (perhaps), the Foveon sensor, IS NOT quite able to (designed to), adequately capture things / photos - at those extremes of settings?

Sort of a sad bummer, per se, in that IF the engineer's included those available setting, I would tend to think then, we should reasonably produce decent photos.

Any thoughts? (Examples)?

Thanks for your time,

Have a nice day / evening -

Ed

~ ~ ~

ELSOK4ME wrote:

Hello:

As I think more about my SD1M (Merrill) camera, and "limitations" (or 'perceived') short comings, I was thinking, for the camera being able to shoot at the high shutter speed of:

1/8000th of a second, (which is pretty FAST to me), wondering WHY (myself of course included), there are NOT many - hardly any "sports / wildlife" actions types of shots, with that camera?

If the camera's designs are providing us (owners / users) - doesn't it seem "logical" that we should be able to (would be), using this camera for those types of scenes / subjects?

We also have the ability on the other end of the spectrum, to (default) shoot - B (Bulb) = 30 secs, and IF we enable the "Extended Mode" - up to 120 secs (2 minutes).

Now, as previously discussed, shooting with the Higher ISO (beyond) ISO 800 - there is a mix bag of opinions on the IQ capable - as the resulting noise levels are too "unusable".

So, just thinking, nothing at all scientific - IF all these potential "settings" are available for us to choose from, must be (perhaps), the Foveon sensor, IS NOT quite able to (designed to), adequately capture things / photos - at those extremes of settings?

Sort of a sad bummer, per se, in that IF the engineer's included those available setting, I would tend to think then, we should reasonably produce decent photos.

Any thoughts? (Examples)?

Hi Ed

What you describe as the highest shutter speed available is not intrinsically related to sports widllife. Most cameras, film included have been reaching this number for decades. As you may know with mechanical curtain shutters, the highest speed you get is the flash sync i.e 1/200 in the case of the SD1M. This is the fastest speed you can reach to have the full window open at one single time to illuminate the sensor (or film in the past). The fastest SLR I know and had was the Minolta 9xi which reached 1/300 sync and a very fast 1/12000!!!

These high shutters exist to be used on extreme situations i.e you are in the tropics, bright sunshine, with a very fast lens, want to use shallow DOF f2.0 or less and you can easily have to crank up the speed to find the right pairing for exposure.

Bear in mind that above the sync speed the exposure will not be made at the full window, that is a slit will run down the sensor film to expose it. For instance if you use 1/1600, the slit will be 1/8 of the horizontal length, running down pretty fast.
The mecahnical shutter of the SD1 is very capable, one of the very best and will have no problems whatsoever to perform adequately.

So... Sports, Wildlife, what are the limitations of the SD1 / Sigma? They reside mostly on the AF capability which struggles... a lot. In most of these situations you will be using a long lens 200mm and above (with or without OS) for which you are trying to follow the action very quickly. No way you will be able to compete with a Sony A99II that has 80??? focusing points and will always find something to shoot at, any type of moving object.

A sunny day in Masai Mara National Park you can use ISO100 easily plus any f stop with any very capable Sigma tele and SD1. Will you get the shot of the lion charging towards you? Unlikely. You will be eaten before the SD1 can find a locking point and if you use burst you will run out of shots in 10 seconds and will have to go for lunch before you can use the SD1 again.

Sports outdoors is the same as the Masai Mara situation without being eaten. If you go for artificial lighting on evening night sports indoors / outdoors, you start having limitations on the ISO capability of the Foveon. In order to get a decent shutter speed to be used with a tele lens 1/200 and above, you are looking at ISOs of 800 plus. That will never be good enough... plus the AF will be struggling even more in low light.

You should avoid using very high shutter speeds for action sports and wildlife, because of the "slit" movement of the shutter you will end up with deformed objects specially if they are moving horizontally in your frame.

Thanks for your time,

Have a nice day / evening -

Ed

~ ~ ~

Hi Ed:

I have no trouble shooting wildlife with my Sigma Cameras. In my early life I shot Sports shots with a twin lens Rolliecord. I guess I do not understand people who talk about how slow the Sigma camera is and it's poor auto-focus. We did not have that 'good' stuff in the old film days and still got good shots. I attach here a few wild life shots done with the Sigma SD1M. Don't let anyone say the you can not shoot wildlife with Sigma Cameras!

Image below is a Red-Tailed Hawk

A Snowy Egret

Crested Cormorants

Great Blue Heron

Great Blue Heron with chicks

Bull Elk

Bull Elk

Giraffe

Mule Deer Buck

Bull Moose

Sand Hill Cranes in flight

I've seen some of these before, but it is good to see this whole set together. Very impressive indeed.

I think the last two, shot at ISO 800, have too much noise reduction. Perhaps less reduction in SPP, followed by a specialist program such as Neat Image (which has a free demo version) would keep the details crisper ?

Ed the SD1 Merrill isn't as good for fast-moving sports action as a Nikon D7200 or D500, Canon 7 D or 7 D Mk II, or even a Sony A77 Mk II. The reason is its speed and accuracy of focusing. None of the Sigma cameras focus very quickly, compared to the latest high-end cameras from Nikon and Canon. That's not to say you can't use them to shoot sports. You can. I've seen lots of nice sports shots from Sigma SD1 Merrill cameras. Some were sailboat racing shots. Some were auto racing shots. Some were airplane shots from air show. I don't remember seeing any shots of baseball, football, soccer, snow skiing, or swimming.

I disagree Larry... you are using the Trabant Argument for sure they took millions of passengers for decades... and I could do my commute on one. I chose not to if you don't mind.

To say that the SD1(M) is a good camera for action shots is not the best advice compared with so much good technology around. They will not have a Foveon image in the end and that is an enourmous trade in. My 9xi focused better and faster 30 years ago.

Paulo Ferreira wrote:

I disagree Larry... you are using the Trabant Argument for sure they took millions of passengers for decades... and I could do my commute on one. I chose not to if you don't mind.

Hi Paulo:  Thank you for your thoughtful response.

You misunderstood my response to this thread.  I was not arguing that the Sigma cameras are good action/wildlife cameras, but only that they can be used for such with care and deliberation to which I gave a few examples.  I was also looked at with scorn by Nikon film shooters at sporting events when they saw I was shooting a Leicaflex without the benefit of a motor drive.  However good technique and knowledge of the sport allowed one to be in  position for the good shots

I shared on this forum several years ago about an experience I had at the Bas del 
Apache national wildlife refuge attempting to shoot Sand hill cranes in the early morning in December.  With no sun and shooting at ISO 800 I had to shoot at 1/25 sec and had no shoots.  The Nikon and Canon shooters were poping away at ISO 3200 to 6400 while I stood there with my hand in my pockets and freezing my rear off until the sun came up and I could start to shoot, missing all the shots of the cranes dancing.  At that point I decided if I wanted to be a serious birder I would have to get a Nikon or Canon system.

To say that the SD1(M) is a good camera for action shots is not the best advice compared with so much good technology around. They will not have a Foveon image in the end and that is an enourmous trade in. My 9xi focused better and faster 30 years ago.

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larryj wrote:

Hi Ed:

I have no trouble shooting wildlife with my Sigma Cameras. In my early life I shot Sports shots with a twin lens Rolliecord. I guess I do not understand people who talk about how slow the Sigma camera is and it's poor auto-focus. We did not have that 'good' stuff in the old film days and still got good shots. I attach here a few wild life shots done with the Sigma SD1M. Don't let anyone say the you can not shoot wildlife with Sigma Cameras!

Great images, Larry.

I'm still considering an SD1 (pending the release of the Quattro H)

If the image quality can match that of my DP3 Merrill, which uses the same Foveon sensor as the SD1, then it should produce outstanding results.   I'm used to using Manual settings for nearly all of my images.  Of course, a tripod is almost a necessary tool with these cameras.

db

Yes, every camera has limits. There are people shooting wildlife with medium format cameras! Hell, I bet there are people shooting wildlife with large format cameras. (i.e. using an 8x10, with an 1100mm XXL f22 lens, from a balloon, to shoot herds of migrating animals on the plains of Africa - similar to shooting with a 105mm lens on an SD1 Merrill)

larryj wrote:

Paulo Ferreira wrote:

I disagree Larry... you are using the Trabant Argument for sure they took millions of passengers for decades... and I could do my commute on one. I chose not to if you don't mind.

Hi Paulo: Thank you for your thoughtful response.

You misunderstood my response to this thread. I was not arguing that the Sigma cameras are good action/wildlife cameras, but only that they can be used for such with care and deliberation to which I gave a few examples. I was also looked at with scorn by Nikon film shooters at sporting events when they saw I was shooting a Leicaflex without the benefit of a motor drive. However good technique and knowledge of the sport allowed one to be in position for the good shots

I shared on this forum several years ago about an experience I had at the Bas del
Apache national wildlife refuge attempting to shoot Sand hill cranes in the early morning in December. With no sun and shooting at ISO 800 I had to shoot at 1/25 sec and had no shoots. The Nikon and Canon shooters were poping away at ISO 3200 to 6400 while I stood there with my hand in my pockets and freezing my rear off until the sun came up and I could start to shoot, missing all the shots of the cranes dancing. At that point I decided if I wanted to be a serious birder I would have to get a Nikon or Canon system.

Hi Larry

I agree with what you are stating above but I felt I had to add my 2 cents (you know me) believing that the OP wanted to have as much info as possible available... and when the title of the post was relating 1/8000 as a parameter to capture wildlife I thought he ewas not on the right path.
I do understand your "envy" watching other people taking pictures with low light at high ISOs but I see it another way. Of course they are zapping away but they are not taking pictures. They are doing out of camera "electronic drawings". And they don't have a Foveon!!! I do not get the appeal of taking photos WITHOUT light. For me this is nothing else than someone with a powerful car (going back to the Trabant...) that spend their time doing burning rubber circles with the back train for the sake of it. I have the feeling that of the hundreds of shutter clicks you heard that morning none was of any use. You could smell the burning rubber but they were not going anywhere.
When there's no light... don't take photos. Go and have a beer...

To say that the SD1(M) is a good camera for action shots is not the best advice compared with so much good technology around. They will not have a Foveon image in the end and that is an enourmous trade in. My 9xi focused better and faster 30 years ago.

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'Politicians and baby nappies should be changed regularly for exactly the same reason.'
Eça de Queirós (1845-1900)
-------------------------------------------
Paulo Ferreira
(equipment in profile)
http://www.pauloferreira.co.uk
http://www.pbase.com/pauloferreira
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/paulo_ferreira

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Cheers,
larryj
If you can see the light, you can photograph it
Quote from Myron Woods

Hi Paulo, Larry and Scottelly.

I am very happy to have found this older thread that describes animal photography and morning / evening photography. I went back to this topic because I feel it just like Paulo Ferreira and I really like the set of animal photos published by Larry, the giraffe is really impressive!
I see no reason to photograph animals with a camera other than the sigma SD1 Merrill, which is capable of such beautiful details and colors!
I also do not get the appeal of taking photos WITHOUT light. This is not a photograph, because it lacks those beautiful colors, full tones and halftones in all the details! In that sense, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Sigma to make the camera even more sensitive, for even better colors, tones and halftones, and even better detail.

I have seen photos of animals of other photographers on the sigma forum, which confirm the above findings. I hope that I will be able to contribute in the near future ..

Paulo, where there is no light, I do not take photos .. I'm going for a beer .. Peter

Peter Slovakia wrote:

Paulo, where there is no light, I do not take photos ..

Me too, Peter. Well said!