Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Started Oct 24, 2016 | Discussions
iainlea
iainlea Forum Member • Posts: 68
Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
9

Subject says it all...

Why can't Adobe/C1/etc. process Nikon NEF images with the in camera specified profile ?

I am interested in a streamlined workflow so why can't Nikon give/licence the part of their View* software code that parses the in camera profile to Adobe and other raw convertor companies?

Nikon! you should be making our lives easier and not adding extra steps to get the most out of your gear.

Phil_L Veteran Member • Posts: 3,119
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
4

Nikon is afraid of giving away the recipie for their "secret" sauce. :-))

There are RAW converters that give better colours wihout DIY colour profiling.

Today Adobe at least supplies software to DIY. In the days of PS CS2 you had to rely in the efforts of private persons to get decent colours.

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Phil_L

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
9

iainlea wrote:

Subject says it all...

Why can't Adobe/C1/etc. process Nikon NEF images with the in camera specified profile ?

I am interested in a streamlined workflow so why can't Nikon give/licence the part of their View* software code that parses the in camera profile to Adobe and other raw convertor companies?

Nikon! you should be making our lives easier and not adding extra steps to get the most out of your gear.

Pig-headed stupidity?

In the bad old days, Nikon sold NX2 software, so Adobe was seen as a competitor in selling software.  Now Nikon don't sell software, so they should be motivated to enable Nikon users to get the best results.  I cannot see any sensible reason why Nikon do not co-operate with Adobe and other software makers to facilitate the best raw conversion.

Whether Adobe want to be bothered in reading proprietary Nikon metadata in raw files is another matter.

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Simon

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 13,233
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
1

They may be two sides to this.

Nikon in camera settings can be very useful to those who do not post process or to pros sending sports image jpeg straight to picture editors.

Nikon suggests "flat" setting with recent cameras when images are likely to be extensively post processed.

One reason "other" software works faster than Nikon is the other software dumps most Nikon in camera settings. In theory it is possible to make other software recognise Nikon  in camera settings - but only with slower processing.

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Leonard Shepherd
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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
5

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

One reason "other" software works faster than Nikon is the other software dumps most Nikon in camera settings. In theory it is possible to make other software recognise Nikon in camera settings - but only with slower processing.

I'd be surprised if that were true, but perhaps I've missed something.

The time taken to read Nikon metadata, along with the image data itself, is negligible.  Adobe already reads some proprietary data (white balance).  All software has to start with some initial settings; to start with settings derived from Nikon metadata would not take more than a few additional microseconds to read the metadata.  Processing the image data to Nikon settings (rather than some other Adobe settings) is, I would have thought, unlikely to increase the time taken.

There would be additional programming time - to write the code to read the Nikon settings, to decide how to process them, and write code to do that.  This would be a one-off.

However, for Adobe there could also be a saving in time.  It might be that, with inside information from Nikon, they might not have to spend so much time creating camera profiles for each new Nikon camera but could create them automatically from Nikon information.

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Simon

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iainlea
OP iainlea Forum Member • Posts: 68
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Simon Garrett wrote:

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

One reason "other" software works faster than Nikon is the other software dumps most Nikon in camera settings. In theory it is possible to make other software recognise Nikon in camera settings - but only with slower processing.

I'd be surprised if that were true, but perhaps I've missed something.

The time taken to read Nikon metadata, along with the image data itself, is negligible. Adobe already reads some proprietary data (white balance). All software has to start with some initial settings; to start with settings derived from Nikon metadata would not take more than a few additional microseconds to read the metadata. Processing the image data to Nikon settings (rather than some other Adobe settings) is, I would have thought, unlikely to increase the time taken.

There would be additional programming time - to write the code to read the Nikon settings, to decide how to process them, and write code to do that. This would be a one-off.

However, for Adobe there could also be a saving in time. It might be that, with inside information from Nikon, they might not have to spend so much time creating camera profiles for each new Nikon camera but could create them automatically from Nikon information.

Exactly!  I have already spoken to my contact at Nikon NPS.

Maybe other NPS members should also contact NPS asking them why this is still not sorted in 2016!?

Nikon should be doing everything possible to keep their userbase happy especially after the D800/D600/D750 QA fiasco...

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
2

iainlea wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

One reason "other" software works faster than Nikon is the other software dumps most Nikon in camera settings. In theory it is possible to make other software recognise Nikon in camera settings - but only with slower processing.

I'd be surprised if that were true, but perhaps I've missed something.

The time taken to read Nikon metadata, along with the image data itself, is negligible. Adobe already reads some proprietary data (white balance). All software has to start with some initial settings; to start with settings derived from Nikon metadata would not take more than a few additional microseconds to read the metadata. Processing the image data to Nikon settings (rather than some other Adobe settings) is, I would have thought, unlikely to increase the time taken.

There would be additional programming time - to write the code to read the Nikon settings, to decide how to process them, and write code to do that. This would be a one-off.

However, for Adobe there could also be a saving in time. It might be that, with inside information from Nikon, they might not have to spend so much time creating camera profiles for each new Nikon camera but could create them automatically from Nikon information.

Exactly! I have already spoken to my contact at Nikon NPS.

Maybe other NPS members should also contact NPS asking them why this is still not sorted in 2016!?

Nikon should be doing everything possible to keep their userbase happy especially after the D800/D600/D750 QA fiasco...

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Agreed, but personally I doubt anything will happen.  Nikon management seem to be like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

They're losing bottom-end and mid-range to smartphones, and they've no answer to that.  They should be integrating with networking and social media, but Snapbridge suggests they don't understand the problem, let alone the solution.

Meanwhile, it's likely that mirrorless will eventually largely displace traditional DSLRs.  Mirrorless removes virtually all the precision moving parts (and cost) from a camera, and creates new opportunities.  I was surprised recently to see several leading professional photographers using cameras like the Fuji X-T2 (on the basis not that they're better than top-end DSLRs, but that they're good enough, and have other benefits such as lightness).

The innovation here isn't coming from Nikon or Canon; they have profitable DSLR product lines screaming that no one must kill their babies with competing products.  They produce half-hearted mid-range mirrorless when they should be creating top-end mirrorless.  I've seen this before in big companies.  Trouble is, if you don't kill your babies, someone else will.

I'm not suggesting NIkon will die, but I don't yet see any realisation that their world is changing.  Opening up their proprietary software and data infrastructure is just one thing they need to do but probably won't.

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Simon

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iainlea
OP iainlea Forum Member • Posts: 68
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Simon Garrett wrote:

iainlea wrote:

Simon Garrett wrote:

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

One reason "other" software works faster than Nikon is the other software dumps most Nikon in camera settings. In theory it is possible to make other software recognise Nikon in camera settings - but only with slower processing.

Agreed, but personally I doubt anything will happen. Nikon management seem to be like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

They're losing bottom-end and mid-range to smartphones, and they've no answer to that. They should be integrating with networking and social media, but Snapbridge suggests they don't understand the problem, let alone the solution.

Meanwhile, it's likely that mirrorless will eventually largely displace traditional DSLRs. Mirrorless removes virtually all the precision moving parts (and cost) from a camera, and creates new opportunities. I was surprised recently to see several leading professional photographers using cameras like the Fuji X-T2 (on the basis not that they're better than top-end DSLRs, but that they're good enough, and have other benefits such as lightness).

The innovation here isn't coming from Nikon or Canon; they have profitable DSLR product lines screaming that no one must kill their babies with competing products. They produce half-hearted mid-range mirrorless when they should be creating top-end mirrorless. I've seen this before in big companies. Trouble is, if you don't kill your babies, someone else will.

I'm not suggesting NIkon will die, but I don't yet see any realisation that their world is changing. Opening up their proprietary software and data infrastructure is just one thing they need to do but probably won't.

Exactly Simon!

I have been telling anyone that will listen that they should have been packing the electronics of an android cell phone into the external battery grip so that all the communication options are available to the Nikon DSLR family... they could sell a bunch as long as they could get the cell comms module to see the SD/CF/QXD cards... this is not rocket science.

Someone should do a kickstarter project

I have been reasonably loyal due to my investment in glass but in 2017 I will probably take a close look at the Fuji GFX MF platform and maybe Sony a7r3...

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,655
No particular reason to
5

as Adobe has the world's top photographic software engineers creating profiles which are better than anything Nikon (Silkypix) can do with CNX-D, Capture One, DXO, etc.

Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 1,486
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
2

Isn't that why these SDK exists? Whose fault is it if the software companies don't want to use the SDKs...

https://sdk.nikonimaging.com/apply

But if you want to have the starting point be Nikon's conversion - shouldn't you be using a Nikon RAW converter and convert everything to TIFF before doing final edits on your pixel editor of choice?

Simon Garrett wrote:

iainlea wrote:

Subject says it all...

Why can't Adobe/C1/etc. process Nikon NEF images with the in camera specified profile ?

I am interested in a streamlined workflow so why can't Nikon give/licence the part of their View* software code that parses the in camera profile to Adobe and other raw convertor companies?

Nikon! you should be making our lives easier and not adding extra steps to get the most out of your gear.

Pig-headed stupidity?

In the bad old days, Nikon sold NX2 software, so Adobe was seen as a competitor in selling software. Now Nikon don't sell software, so they should be motivated to enable Nikon users to get the best results. I cannot see any sensible reason why Nikon do not co-operate with Adobe and other software makers to facilitate the best raw conversion.

Whether Adobe want to be bothered in reading proprietary Nikon metadata in raw files is another matter.

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Simon

nikonjohn
nikonjohn Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
1

Simon -  I don't know whether Adobe reads some proprietary data but in my experience it is certainly not white balance.  I'm currently shooting with a D810.  When I compare the initial WB setting in Lightroom for a NEF file, it is always off by about + 150/250 from the reading in Capture NX-D.  This is particularly noticeable with flash shots where the difference is always over 200.  Of course, NX-D could be the software that is off but I doubt it since it picks up the other D810 settings that Lightroom doesn't.

nikonjohn
nikonjohn Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: No particular reason to
4

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

as Adobe has the world's top photographic software engineers creating profiles which are better than anything Nikon (Silkypix) can do with CNX-D, Capture One, DXO, etc.

Reilly - I don't fully agree.  I've used LR for years and typically use the camera standard profile with my NEF files.  Overall, it gives very pleasing results but, at least to my eye, it tends to oversaturate red and orange colors and sometime it doesn't get the hue right.  This is particularly noticeable when I'm editing flowers although the issue with proper hue will occasionally pop up with someone wearing a coat.  I don't find this to be the case with NEF files opened in NX-D.  Of course, part of getting the color right is getting the right white balance adjustment which LR typically overestimates for my NEF files.

Neila1975 New Member • Posts: 10
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
2

iainlea wrote:

Subject says it all...

Why can't Adobe/C1/etc. process Nikon NEF images with the in camera specified profile ?

I am interested in a streamlined workflow so why can't Nikon give/licence the part of their View* software code that parses the in camera profile to Adobe and other raw convertor companies?

Nikon! you should be making our lives easier and not adding extra steps to get the most out of your gear.

To be fair to Nikon their software is still superior to Adobe for IQ and colour quality when viewing and part processing NEF's (I say part processing because I prefer the UI of Adobe ACR and its functionality to Nikons rather rigid and user unfriendly inteface!).  If I were them, I wouldn't be too happy giving away years of hard work in order for Adobe to become an even stronger player.   FWIW I still use CNX2 save to TIFF and finish in ACR/Photoshop.

Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Canadianguy wrote:

Isn't that why these SDK exists? Whose fault is it if the software companies don't want to use the SDKs...

https://sdk.nikonimaging.com/apply

I believe the NEF SDK does not provides access to much of the proprietary metadata, only white balance - and the normal non-proprietary metadata (exposure, location etc).

Or has that changed?

But if you want to have the starting point be Nikon's conversion - shouldn't you be using a Nikon RAW converter and convert everything to TIFF before doing final edits on your pixel editor of choice?

Why should one be obliged to use Nikon raw conversion?  What benefit would that offer over other companies offering better raw conversion?

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Simon

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

nikonjohn wrote:

Simon - I don't know whether Adobe reads some proprietary data but in my experience it is certainly not white balance. I'm currently shooting with a D810. When I compare the initial WB setting in Lightroom for a NEF file, it is always off by about + 150/250 from the reading in Capture NX-D. This is particularly noticeable with flash shots where the difference is always over 200. Of course, NX-D could be the software that is off but I doubt it since it picks up the other D810 settings that Lightroom doesn't.

I'm pretty sure Adobe and other third parties do read the white balance.  However, the way white balance is defined, it is open to interpretation about how one processes the raw to that white balance.

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Simon

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Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 5,576
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
1

Neila1975 wrote:

iainlea wrote:

Subject says it all...

Why can't Adobe/C1/etc. process Nikon NEF images with the in camera specified profile ?

I am interested in a streamlined workflow so why can't Nikon give/licence the part of their View* software code that parses the in camera profile to Adobe and other raw convertor companies?

Nikon! you should be making our lives easier and not adding extra steps to get the most out of your gear.

To be fair to Nikon their software is still superior to Adobe for IQ and colour quality when viewing and part processing NEF's

I would say that's a personal preference and not a fact.  There is no single "right" rendering of a raw image.  You may prefer Nikon's rendering - perhaps many people do - but I don't think one can say as a matter of objective fact that either Adobe or Nikon is "superior" in quality.

For example, with my D300, Capture NX2 used to over-sharpen at times at default settings, to my judgement.  Sometimes I could see ringing artefacts on sharp edges.  Adobe Camera Standard profile applied less sharpening by default.   However, some people prefered the Nikon sharpening, regarding it as giving a crisper image.  I don't think one could say either was "right".

(I say part processing because I prefer the UI of Adobe ACR and its functionality to Nikons rather rigid and user unfriendly inteface!). If I were them, I wouldn't be too happy giving away years of hard work in order for Adobe to become an even stronger player. FWIW I still use CNX2 save to TIFF and finish in ACR/Photoshop.

I find NX2 rather clunky.  I have done a lot of tests over the years comparing NX2 and LR.  On a very few images the NX2 rendering was more pleasing to me, but for most LR was the same or in some cases better.  However, highlight and shadow recovery are (to me) much, much better in LR than NX2 (or NXD).

Again, I'm not claiming to be "right", only that this is a matter of subjective choice.

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Simon

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,655
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Simon Garrett wrote:


To be fair to Nikon their software is still superior to Adobe for IQ and colour quality when viewing and part processing NEF's

I would say that's a personal preference and not a fact. There is no single "right" rendering of a raw image. You may prefer Nikon's rendering - perhaps many people do - but I don't think one can say as a matter of objective fact that either Adobe or Nikon is "superior" in quality.

Yes.  Personal preference, as you say.  Everyone sees color differently.  A lot differently.  If one can't whip up a Lightroom profile with a 50 MP raw and the myriad of tweaks available...

For example, with my D300, Capture NX2 used to over-sharpen at times at default settings, to my judgement. Sometimes I could see ringing artefacts on sharp edges. Adobe Camera Standard profile applied less sharpening by default. However, some people prefered the Nikon sharpening, regarding it as giving a crisper image. I don't think one could say either was "right".

I have no problem saying that LR's sharpening is the best in the business, far smoother than CNX2, which was quite artifact laden no matter how you tweaked USM and high pass.

(I say part processing because I prefer the UI of Adobe ACR and its functionality to Nikons rather rigid and user unfriendly inteface!). If I were them, I wouldn't be too happy giving away years of hard work in order for Adobe to become an even stronger player. FWIW I still use CNX2 save to TIFF and finish in ACR/Photoshop.

I find NX2 rather clunky.

Yuh!  How to count the ways.

I have done a lot of tests over the years comparing NX2 and LR. On a very few images the NX2 rendering was more pleasing to me, but for most LR was the same or in some cases better. However, highlight and shadow recovery are (to me) much, much better in LR than NX2 (or NXD).

Process 2012 still the best at maintaining transparency under the stress of DR compression against Capture One or any other competitors, imo.

Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 1,486
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Simon Garrett wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Isn't that why these SDK exists? Whose fault is it if the software companies don't want to use the SDKs...

https://sdk.nikonimaging.com/apply

I believe the NEF SDK does not provides access to much of the proprietary metadata, only white balance - and the normal non-proprietary metadata (exposure, location etc).

Or has that changed?

Not sure - I don't have access to the SDKs.

But if you want to have the starting point be Nikon's conversion - shouldn't you be using a Nikon RAW converter and convert everything to TIFF before doing final edits on your pixel editor of choice?

Why should one be obliged to use Nikon raw conversion? What benefit would that offer over other companies offering better raw conversion?

Because - that was what the OP asked for...

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Simon

nikonjohn
nikonjohn Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?

Simon - For trial purposes I set the white balance at 4800 K and took 2 NEF shots in ambient light using an Impact - QuikBalance gray panel.  The shots were taken at 70 mm using matrix metering and the panel filled up the entire image except for the corners.

Lightroom measured both shots at 5000K missing the camera setting by +200 K.

NX-D measured both shots at 4806K missing the camera setting by +6 K.

The Lightroom WB reading wasn't a huge disparity from the setting in the camera but the difference was certainly measurable.

When I use auto-white 1, my experience over the last couple of years is that Lightroom overcooks the white balance versus the camera's output a bit more than if I set the WB to a specific number on the Kelvin scale.

Maybe Lightroom is reading the proprietary WB data from the NEF files, but in my experience it's WB measurements are warmer than my camera's actual output.

Kpatel55 Regular Member • Posts: 185
Re: Why can't Adobe and Nikon work to have LR/CC/PS process Nikon color profiles?
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