DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

Started Oct 7, 2016 | Discussions
david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
6

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1800x1200~sample_galleries/9965740614/1539651291.jpg

Why doesn't Nikon consider a real retro FF line based around a prime lens set like the new Nokton shown above.?

Old school beauty and vibe with modern connectivity bar AF .

What the Df could / should have been ?

A body similar to the FM/FE line, totally stripped to the basics -no rear screen but with manual shutter cocking too, thus minimal battery power requirements.

Good enough for Leica , why not Nikon?

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M-D

The definitive street FF Nikon re thought . Back to the future , a' small tool camera system' all about simplicity and emphasis on pure photography and visual skill.

Minimal distractions, maximum concentration .

Nikon Df
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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,843
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
5

david vella wrote:

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1800x1200~sample_galleries/9965740614/1539651291.jpg

Why doesn't Nikon consider a real retro FF line based around a prime lens set like the new Nokton shown above.?

Old school beauty and vibe with modern connectivity bar AF .

What the Df could / should have been ?

A body similar to the FM/FE line, totally stripped to the basics -no rear screen but with manual shutter cocking too, thus minimal battery power requirements.

I'm at a loss to understand what the purpose of a manual shutter cocking lever is.  What does it do?  You won't get enough takers if you lose the rear screen.  I don't see a good reason to get rid of it either.  My Fuji X-E2 is an APS-C camera with a rear screen and it's as thin or thinner than my Nikon F and FE.

Good enough for Leica , why not Nikon?

Leica doesn't sell many cameras.  And what they do sell they sell at a heavy premium.  So I'm not sure Leica is a good model for Nikon.

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Mike Dawson

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too old for this Regular Member • Posts: 365
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

The best answer, one might suppose, is that Nikon is in the business of selling stuff. If they think they can sell enough of pretty much anything to make satisfactory profit for the company then they would likely do so. My guess would be they don't make what you propose because they don't think it would be sufficiently profitably.

On the other hand, if they had announced a digital camera similar to their old rangefinder models rather than the dF, I wold probably have bought.

OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

michaeladawson wrote:

david vella wrote:

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1800x1200~sample_galleries/9965740614/1539651291.jpg

Why doesn't Nikon consider a real retro FF line based around a prime lens set like the new Nokton shown above.?

Old school beauty and vibe with modern connectivity bar AF .

What the Df could / should have been ?

A body similar to the FM/FE line, totally stripped to the basics -no rear screen but with manual shutter cocking too, thus minimal battery power requirements.

I'm at a loss to understand what the purpose of a manual shutter cocking lever is. What does it do? You won't get enough takers if you lose the rear screen. I don't see a good reason to get rid of it either. My Fuji X-E2 is an APS-C camera with a rear screen and it's as thin or thinner than my Nikon F and FE.

The reason is simple ,  both the screen and electric drive use power .  Returning to the  FM/FE  classic simplicity combined with fast primes as the new Nokton   would be fine for street shooters who know exactly how to handle a real camera .

Good enough for Leica , why not Nikon?

Leica doesn't sell many cameras. And what they do sell they sell at a heavy premium. So I'm not sure Leica is a good model for Nikon.

Nikon need an FF camera that is not just another gizmo,  to restore faith !

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Mike Dawson

http://www.thecamerasite.net/01_SLR_Cameras/Pages/nikon%20fm2.htm

OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

too old for this wrote:

The best answer, one might suppose, is that Nikon is in the business of selling stuff. If they think they can sell enough of pretty much anything to make satisfactory profit for the company then they would likely do so. My guess would be they don't make what you propose because they don't think it would be sufficiently profitably.

On the other hand, if they had announced a digital camera similar to their old rangefinder models rather than the dF, I wold probably have bought.

Well there you go!

https://www.cameraquest.com/nrfblsp2005.htm

A digital version of the SP  without bells and whistles.

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,843
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
3

david vella wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

david vella wrote:

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1800x1200~sample_galleries/9965740614/1539651291.jpg

Why doesn't Nikon consider a real retro FF line based around a prime lens set like the new Nokton shown above.?

Old school beauty and vibe with modern connectivity bar AF .

What the Df could / should have been ?

A body similar to the FM/FE line, totally stripped to the basics -no rear screen but with manual shutter cocking too, thus minimal battery power requirements.

I'm at a loss to understand what the purpose of a manual shutter cocking lever is. What does it do? You won't get enough takers if you lose the rear screen. I don't see a good reason to get rid of it either. My Fuji X-E2 is an APS-C camera with a rear screen and it's as thin or thinner than my Nikon F and FE.

The reason is simple , both the screen and electric drive use power . Returning to the FM/FE classic simplicity combined with fast primes as the new Nokton would be fine for street shooters who know exactly how to handle a real camera .

I know exactly how to use a real camera.  That doesn't mean I don't want a rear screen to make menu choices.  Or to use the rear screen occasionally to verify an image or view a histogram.  And you didn't say what the shutter cock lever was for.  Are you suggesting it's a manual charging crank?

Good enough for Leica , why not Nikon?

Leica doesn't sell many cameras. And what they do sell they sell at a heavy premium. So I'm not sure Leica is a good model for Nikon.

Nikon need an FF camera that is not just another gizmo, to restore faith !

Not just another gizmo?  To restore faith?  What they need to restore faith is fewer problems with new releases.  Release of a camera that panders to a very, very small minority is more of a gimmick and in my mind would be more of a boost to the notion that Nikon is out of touch with its user base.

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Marcus nikonious Regular Member • Posts: 324
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

Most of us remember Nikon's first foray into digital was started by adding digital backs on existing film bodies. Kodak was one out fit who provided the digital add on. They were less than 5mpx and quite large. They also cost upwards of 20g s . If I remember correctly they used the F 90 , the F3hp and the F5. There were probably 1or 2 more. This proved quite a few years ago that it can be done. For me , and I mean just me , I would probably send in an F4, Fm2, and NikonosV and have them converted to digital . If I could have only one of these converted it would be the Nikonos V. There has been nothing like it since. At this stage of my life a 28 & 35mm would suffice. Manual wind and zone focus as original . Neither Rain Snow Sleet or six atmospheres would hold it down . The rear screen has me totally spoiled and would be imperative.For me digitals biggest advantage over film is instant feedback when necessary Digital has adequaely replaced film cameras . However in my mind not everything in the 400 Page user manual is necessary for me ,but I am greatful some times that it's all there. This is a fantasy not a wish list.

With all this said something simple would be refreshing once in a while. Minimum dependence on electricity would also be a plus. Please be nice ,I was just in the lens forum. As a spectator .

Mike S.

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Nikonparrothead Veteran Member • Posts: 5,681
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

Yes, this has been a longtime plea.  Maybe everyone who wants one will chip in on a Kickstarter drive with Nikon to fund one (and I'd gladly do so).

But that Leica you link to is costs more than its Leica  counterpart with a rear screen -- it's a lower volume product.

I wonder what build quality Nikon would go for. The D5 level, the D810 level, the D600 variants (like the Df)? Leica basically builds one camera line with its M mount.

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OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

Nikonparrothead wrote:

Yes, this has been a longtime plea. Maybe everyone who wants one will chip in on a Kickstarter drive with Nikon to fund one (and I'd gladly do so).

But that Leica you link to is costs more than its Leica counterpart with a rear screen -- it's a lower volume product.

I wonder what build quality Nikon would go for. The D5 level, the D810 level, the D600 variants (like the Df)? Leica basically builds one camera line with its M mount.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Rocksoff but it's a good image of the FE!!

Just a sensor in this body style / type without changing much else . A photographer's basic camera with only the essentials, but with fast small manual focus primes of outstanding quality.

An addition to Nikon's other lines . For me a what a true Df should be , not a fudge/ kludge which is neither fish nor fowl .

OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
2

michaeladawson wrote:

david vella wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

david vella wrote:

https://3.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1800x1200~sample_galleries/9965740614/1539651291.jpg

Why doesn't Nikon consider a real retro FF line based around a prime lens set like the new Nokton shown above.?

Old school beauty and vibe with modern connectivity bar AF .

What the Df could / should have been ?

A body similar to the FM/FE line, totally stripped to the basics -no rear screen but with manual shutter cocking too, thus minimal battery power requirements.

I'm at a loss to understand what the purpose of a manual shutter cocking lever is. What does it do? You won't get enough takers if you lose the rear screen. I don't see a good reason to get rid of it either. My Fuji X-E2 is an APS-C camera with a rear screen and it's as thin or thinner than my Nikon F and FE.

The reason is simple , both the screen and electric drive use power . Returning to the FM/FE classic simplicity combined with fast primes as the new Nokton would be fine for street shooters who know exactly how to handle a real camera .

I know exactly how to use a real camera. That doesn't mean I don't want a rear screen to make menu choices. Or to use the rear screen occasionally to verify an image or view a histogram. And you didn't say what the shutter cock lever was for. Are you suggesting it's a manual charging crank?

There are plenty of other Nikon camera bodies/lenses that offer the requirements you list . And yes, a traditional lever wind to charge  the shutter and act as a thumb grip r , no battery drain required . This like the Leica M -D is for those who only need the basics coupled with high quality small fast manual focus primes .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Wellcock , but it's a good image of the FE!!

Just put a sensor in the FE style body( obviously no opening back ! ) and leave all else alone as far as possible , possibly a handgrip for handling and battery . An FE needed no menus nor a rear screen but was still a brilliant tool camera . No messing, just take photos , worked for decades !

What a Df should be IMHO !

Good enough for Leica , why not Nikon?

Leica doesn't sell many cameras. And what they do sell they sell at a heavy premium. So I'm not sure Leica is a good model for Nikon.

Nikon need an FF camera that is not just another gizmo, to restore faith !

Not just another gizmo? To restore faith? What they need to restore faith is fewer problems with new releases. Release of a camera that panders to a very, very small minority is more of a gimmick and in my mind would be more of a boost to the notion that Nikon is out of touch with its user base.

The Df is out of touch with its intended user ! It doesn't meet its brief as advertised .

The Series 1 , seriously ?

Back to core values, and offering an DSLR FF option that is not an anvil attached to a bozooka might be welcomed by the same crowd that like Fujifilm X cameras and top end M43s .

If Nikon insist on ignoring mirrorless , why not ?

T

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Mike Dawson

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,843
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

david vella wrote:

The Df is out of touch with its intended user ! It doesn't meet its brief as advertised .

The Series 1 , seriously ?

Back to core values, and offering an DSLR FF option that is not an anvil attached to a bozooka might be welcomed by the same crowd that like Fujifilm X cameras and top end M43s .

If Nikon insist on ignoring mirrorless , why not ?

Where did I say the Df or Series 1 are out of touch with the user base? Nowhere. They both have a rear LCD screen. I have nothing against retro controls either. I love them on my two Fuji cameras rangefinder style cameras. The Fuji X-T2 is an excellent example. I'd switch to Fuji completely if they made full frame and had a decent flash system.

Fuji cameras demonstrate that you can make a camera with a rear LCD screen and it will be as thin as an FM/FE. So there is no practical reason to ditch the rear LCD. You can have all the retro controls and still retain the LCD. Ditching it will result in a niche camera that will sell very poorly.

I'm a bit tired of Thom Hogan's constant complaints about Nikon. But if one were to agree with his opinions photographers want increased workflow usability, built in Wi-Fi, ease of connectivity, etc. If Nikon produces the camera that you are talking about it would be further indication that Nikon is off in it's own dream world spending R&D money on things that don't address photographers needs and wants.

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Mike Dawson

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OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

michaeladawson wrote:

david vella wrote:

The Df is out of touch with its intended user ! It doesn't meet its brief as advertised .

The Series 1 , seriously ?

Back to core values, and offering an DSLR FF option that is not an anvil attached to a bozooka might be welcomed by the same crowd that like Fujifilm X cameras and top end M43s .

If Nikon insist on ignoring mirrorless , why not ?

Where did I say the Df or Series 1 are out of touch with the user base? Nowhere.

Correct , I said it !

I think you are a little confused as to my meaning .

They both have a rear LCD screen. I have nothing against retro controls either. I love them on my two Fuji cameras rangefinder style cameras. The Fuji X-T2 is an excellent example. I'd switch to Fuji completely if they made full frame and had a decent flash system.

I agree with you about the Fuji X system , it's excellent and has come about in only five years or so - shows what can be achieved from scratch .

Fujifilm are not going to make an FF system as has been implied in recent Photokina interviews . They have jumped to the GFX system , bigger than FF instead.

Fuji cameras demonstrate that you can make a camera with a rear LCD screen and it will be as thin as an FM/FE.

Are you sure ? I doubt it , as a digital FM/FE would still be a DSLR and not mirrorless - that's the point .

Nikon seem determined to only make DSLRs at the top end , so why not reinterpret their past literally except with a sensor ? This is in addition to their mainstream cameras, yes a niche , but a serious one as the Leica M- D with manual primes to match - small and fast .

So there is no practical reason to ditch the rear LCD. You can have all the retro controls and still retain the LCD. Ditching it will result in a niche camera that will sell very poorly.

Niche yes, but it could  still sell well enough , how has the Df faired in sales ? How about a dedicated B/W version too , again like Leica. Tools not toys .

I'm a bit tired of Thom Hogan's constant complaints about Nikon. But if one were to agree with his opinions photographers want increased workflow usability, built in Wi-Fi, ease of connectivity, etc.

Yes , all fine and dandy for the mainstream .

But a digital reinterpretation of the FM /FE would not be primarily about any of that malarkey . What it would be is a tough as nails small street photographer's tool and still with an OVF that Nikon ( and many Nikonistas )seems to want to cling to .

If Nikon produces the camera that you are talking about it would be further indication that Nikon is off in it's own dream world spending R&D money on things that don't address photographers needs and wants.

Not sure about that . What R and D ? Only minimal surely .

The digital components already exist and Nikon made its reputation with film cameras - just put the two together without frills or fuss !

Nikon is already serving up mainstream products , except in DX/ FF mirrorless. A hybrid niche system based around a stripped down small manual FF DSLR and lenses built like the new Voigtlander could still prove better sellers than the cynical , faux retro Df Frankenkamera . No cannibalising from Nikon's DX/FX conventional lines which they seem obsessed about protecting to the point of self destruction .

A new 'clean sheet of paper' FX mirrorless system plus lenses ain't never gonna happen at Nikon apparently , so why not throw us a simple hybrid bone instead - just for fun ?

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Mike Dawson

Nikonparrothead Veteran Member • Posts: 5,681
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

As I said I'd be interested in one too but I suspect productiin volume would be low and the cost high

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theonetruepath Senior Member • Posts: 1,735
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

Marcus nikonious wrote:

With all this said something simple would be refreshing once in a while. Minimum dependence on electricity would also be a plus.

Heh. Too many luddites on this thread. I'm looking for the opposite: A camera that does away with glass by manipulating space-time and curving light using tiny black holes to make gravitational lenses. A gigapixel sensor that covers the whole back of my phone and has a pretty much weightless 2000mm f0.2 gravity lens.

Less electricity indeed. Maybe you want a coal burning, steam powered camera?

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 13,843
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

david vella wrote:

I agree with you about the Fuji X system , it's excellent and has come about in only five years or so - shows what can be achieved from scratch .

Fujifilm are not going to make an FF system as has been implied in recent Photokina interviews . They have jumped to the GFX system , bigger than FF instead.

Yes.  I'm aware of that.  It's too bad really.  I think the small sensor medium format format doesn't really make a lot of sense as a bang for buck system.  Sensors are just too good these days to justify that format over FX in my opinion.  Yet some will shell out the dollars for it in the quest for ultimate IQ.

Fuji cameras demonstrate that you can make a camera with a rear LCD screen and it will be as thin as an FM/FE.

Are you sure ? I doubt it , as a digital FM/FE would still be a DSLR and not mirrorless - that's the point .

I don't count the extra flange distance needed for the mirror box in the size of a DSLR.  The Fuji X-T2 is 133x92x49mm and weighs 507g.  The FE2 is 142x90x57mm and weighs 550g.  Granted, the Fuji would probably measure a little thicker if one was to take into account a mirror box for a DSLR system.  But I'll be cavalier and not count the mirror box flange distance.  It's the thickness of the main body that is important and the mirror box doesn't enter into that equation.  The mirror box simply extends the flange distance (or neck if you will).

I don't have an X-T2 but I have an X-E2 and an X-Pro2 and an FE2.  If you ignore the flange distance and just look at the thickness of the main body, the Fujis are as thin or thinner than the FE2.  The X-T2 is thinner than the X-Pro2.

Nikon seem determined to only make DSLRs at the top end , so why not reinterpret their past literally except with a sensor ? This is in addition to their mainstream cameras, yes a niche , but a serious one as the Leica M- D with manual primes to match - small and fast .

Sure why not?  I can agree with your enthusiasm for this.  But it won't happen.  Trust me (as Donald Trump would say), Nikon isn't going to go down this path.  They just aren't.

So there is no practical reason to ditch the rear LCD. You can have all the retro controls and still retain the LCD. Ditching it will result in a niche camera that will sell very poorly.

Niche yes, but it could still sell well enough , how has the Df faired in sales ? How about a dedicated B/W version too , again like Leica. Tools not toys .

No.  It will not sell well enough.  Remove the rear LCD and the camera will not sell.  It just won't.  OK, I get it.  You think it will sell.  I say it won't.  No point continuing the argument.

I'm a bit tired of Thom Hogan's constant complaints about Nikon. But if one were to agree with his opinions photographers want increased workflow usability, built in Wi-Fi, ease of connectivity, etc.

Yes , all fine and dandy for the mainstream .

But a digital reinterpretation of the FM /FE would not be primarily about any of that malarkey . What it would be is a tough as nails small street photographer's tool and still with an OVF that Nikon ( and many Nikonistas )seems to want to cling to .

No.  Street photographers are going to move on to mirrorless in increasing numbers.  You want an OVF?  Get a Fuji X-Pro2.  Again, I understand and can appreciate your fervor for the camera body you describe.  It just ain't gonna happen.

If Nikon produces the camera that you are talking about it would be further indication that Nikon is off in it's own dream world spending R&D money on things that don't address photographers needs and wants.

Not sure about that . What R and D ? Only minimal surely .

The common photographer won't understand that.  They will simply see Nikon throwing development dollars away on frivilous and unwanted product.  "Why did you build that stupid camera with no LCD instead of giving me Wi-Fi and GPS?"

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BirgerH
BirgerH Veteran Member • Posts: 5,904
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.
1

david vella wrote:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Rocksoff but it's a good image of the FE!!

And out of context to the headline, I'm no fan of people, who uses disdainful nicknames for persons, they might dislike or disagree with, in a serious discussing forum - further more, people that has not participated in the discussion.

Just an out of context opinion.

BirgerH.

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OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

BirgerH wrote:

david vella wrote:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Rocksoff but it's a good image of the FE!!

And out of context to the headline, I'm no fan of people, who uses disdainful nicknames for persons, they might dislike or disagree with, in a serious discussing forum - further more, people that has not participated in the discussion.

Just an out of context opinion.

BirgerH.

Come on , a little sense of humour cannot go amiss surely !

OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

theonetruepath wrote:

Marcus nikonious wrote:

With all this said something simple would be refreshing once in a while. Minimum dependence on electricity would also be a plus.

Heh. Too many luddites on this thread. I'm looking for the opposite: A camera that does away with glass by manipulating space-time and curving light using tiny black holes to make gravitational lenses. A gigapixel sensor that covers the whole back of my phone and has a pretty much weightless 2000mm f0.2 gravity lens.

Less electricity indeed. Maybe you want a coal burning, steam powered camera?

Haha , very good squire !

No coal required , just another option  as  the Df , only much better resolved and executed .

BirgerH
BirgerH Veteran Member • Posts: 5,904
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

david vella wrote:

BirgerH wrote:

david vella wrote:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Rocksoff but it's a good image of the FE!!

And out of context to the headline, I'm no fan of people, who uses disdainful nicknames for persons, they might dislike or disagree with, in a serious discussing forum - further more, people that has not participated in the discussion.

Just an out of context opinion.

BirgerH.

Come on , a little sense of humour cannot go amiss surely !

Might be me - and then I of course apologize - but I have never found that kind of "humor" specifically mature. In my opinion, it's going for the man, not the ball - and in this forum, we are going for the ball, aren't we?

BirgerH.

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OP david vella Senior Member • Posts: 2,283
Re: DIGITAL STRIPPED - FM /FE VIBE ,reborn with a sensor.

BirgerH wrote:

david vella wrote:

BirgerH wrote:

david vella wrote:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/images1/fe2/D3S_8768-1200.jpg

I am no fan of Ken Rocksoff but it's a good image of the FE!!

And out of context to the headline, I'm no fan of people, who uses disdainful nicknames for persons, they might dislike or disagree with, in a serious discussing forum - further more, people that has not participated in the discussion.

Just an out of context opinion.

BirgerH.

Come on , a little sense of humour cannot go amiss surely !

Might be me - and then I of course apologize - but I have never found that kind of "humor" specifically mature. In my opinion, it's going for the man, not the ball - and in this forum, we are going for the ball, aren't we?

BirgerH.

Possibly you !

Many commentators on various sites consider Ken Rockwell and his opinions fair game for parody and sending up . No apologies necessary.

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