High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

Started Sep 25, 2016 | Discussions
Jules Winnfield Regular Member • Posts: 231
High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

I just picked up my first full frame camera, a Canon 5Diii.  This was primarily for night time sports on a high school field.  Until now, I have been using a 7dii.

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings.  However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings.  I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

Do any of you sports shooters have any input?

Canon EOS 5D Mark III
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beagle1 Forum Pro • Posts: 10,118
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

Jules Winnfield wrote:

I just picked up my first full frame camera, a Canon 5Diii. This was primarily for night time sports on a high school field. Until now, I have been using a 7dii.

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings. However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings. I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

Do any of you sports shooters have any input?

depends, go out and shoot on a field  -  you can use selective noise reduction (Neat Image) if you need a really high shutter and ISO

ZurichPhoto Contributing Member • Posts: 644
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

I have a D5 which has strong high ISO performance.

There is a difference between "can I" shoot at 25600 and "would I" shoot at 25600.

Can I get a night HS FB picture at 25,600. Yes. And I imagine it would be "acceptable" to some people with low quality standards or if it captured a game-winning pass or run. But if you are asking about taking a portfolio-worthy image at that ISO that I am proud of as a photographer, that's harder to imagine.

Maybe it's years of conditioning but I still winch a little at going over 6,400 but with the D5 will go go to 10,000 in a pinch. It really comes down to your personal standards and what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't do a game if I were told I'd be at 25600+ for the duration, even with a D5.

One man's opinion ...

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jkf11610 Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

I shoot under High School lights with a 5DIII and, just this year, I bumped myself up to ISO 10,000 and 1/1,000 (or 1/800 depending on where on the field the play is) at f2.8 after several years of ISO 6400 and 1/800 at f2.8. I am really happy with ISO 10,000 but have yet to experiment going higher. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't find 25,600 or above acceptable quality-wise but would accept noise and quality loss over motion blur caused by dropping my shutter speed below 1/800. I will do whatever I can to stay at 1/800 (or 1/640 at a pinch....under duress).

I also add a kiss of fill light with a flash mounted on a monopod about 18-24 inches below the camera and set to high speed sync and -2/3 flash exposure compensation. I found that without the flash I lost the eyes under the football helmets too often. I don't use flash for half-time Dance and Cheer pics unless the dance team decides to wear baseball caps as part of their costume. I have attached a pair of photos shot consecutively where my flash power (NiH AA's) couldn't keep up with the frames per second so you can see the difference. In my opinion both shots are fine exposure-wise and noise-wise (the action could be better but that's not the point here). No post-processing for noise other than what Aperture applies automatically and manually bumping up the black point a tad. With respect to the flash, I have asked players (incl. QB and receivers) after the game or during warm-ups if they noticed the flash and no one ever has expressed any concerns. Most didn't even notice that the flash had gone off. I may push the ISO a little higher in the future for fields with worse lighting but am afraid of losing image quality above 12,800.

5DIII ISO 10,000 1/800 at f2.8 With fill flash (set to -2/3)

5DIII ISO 10,000 1/800 at f2.8 no fill

osv Veteran Member • Posts: 9,970
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

Jules Winnfield wrote:

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings. However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings. I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

what you should do first is understand what your slowest shutter speed is, because if there is too much subject movement in the shot it won't be sharp... that's typically at least 1/800th minimum.

the balancing act starts at that point.

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dan

TrickTheLight Regular Member • Posts: 199
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

osv wrote:

Jules Winnfield wrote:

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings. However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings. I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

what you should do first is understand what your slowest shutter speed is, because if there is too much subject movement in the shot it won't be sharp... that's typically at least 1/800th minimum.

the balancing act starts at that point.

That number is dependent on your sport and your lens. I shoot MMA, with a 24-70mm lens, and don't need a shutter speed anywhere near 1/800. In bad light I will go down to 1/320 and accept some motion blur in really fast strikes.

Sport shooting is about the moment, not about technical perfection. You just have to take the best you can get in the situation.

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osv Veteran Member • Posts: 9,970
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

TrickTheLight wrote:

osv wrote:

Jules Winnfield wrote:

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings. However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings. I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

what you should do first is understand what your slowest shutter speed is, because if there is too much subject movement in the shot it won't be sharp... that's typically at least 1/800th minimum.

the balancing act starts at that point.

That number is dependent on your sport and your lens.

camera gear is not relevant to the requirement to freeze motion.

I shoot MMA, with a 24-70mm lens, and don't need a shutter speed anywhere near 1/800. In bad light I will go down to 1/320 and accept some motion blur in really fast strikes.

i disagree, because i don't find motion blur to be acceptable.

Sport shooting is about the moment, not about technical perfection. You just have to take the best you can get in the situation.

sport shooting is no different than any other form of photography, you can only do so much with the gear you have at hand, regardless of the subject matter.

if you use m4/3 gear for example, and you want to shoot landscapes, it's not going to be an ideal situation, 36mp ff would be a much better choice.

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dan

(unknown member) Forum Member • Posts: 58
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

For me, when it's an important moment the iso is not that critical. This is Kalian Sams of the Netherlands after winning the European Championship Baseball a couple of weeks ago. He also became a father that same day. So I had to shoot him. This is ISO 20000 with noise reduction.

osv Veteran Member • Posts: 9,970
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

TrickTheLight wrote:

Sport shooting is about the moment, not about technical perfection. You just have to take the best you can get in the situation.

i've had to use crap gear to shoot sports... it was a pentax k10d, which is a 10mp ccd-based camera, it's so primitive that it doesn't even have liveview capability... my best zoom was a manual focus tamron sp adaptall-2 60-300 lens, which is actually a good piece of glass, but with no af, most people wouldn't even consider using it.

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dan

TrickTheLight Regular Member • Posts: 199
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

osv wrote:

TrickTheLight wrote:

That number is dependent on your sport and your lens.

camera gear is not relevant to the requirement to freeze motion.

I said lens specifically for a reason. If you are shooting a 600mm lens, on a crop body, you need minimum 1/1000 shutter speed or you won't achieve good focus, but tripod and IS can change that. If you are shooting an awards ceremony, you can freeze the human beings with a very slow shutter speed. If you are trying to capture a baseball batter, you need a faster shutter speed than dog obedience trials. If you need to freeze the ocean spray in a surfing photo 1000 yards away, you need a different shutter speed than capturing a yoga pose at 4 feet away.

I shoot MMA, with a 24-70mm lens, and don't need a shutter speed anywhere near 1/800. In bad light I will go down to 1/320 and accept some motion blur in really fast strikes.

i disagree, because i don't find motion blur to be acceptable.

If I have to choose between going into ISO ranges above 25,000 or slowing down under 1/500th, I find a blurred fist far preferable to noise or heavy noise reduction. Your mileage varies, good on ya.

Sport shooting is about the moment, not about technical perfection. You just have to take the best you can get in the situation.

sport shooting is no different than any other form of photography, you can only do so much with the gear you have at hand, regardless of the subject matter.

Yes, but everything in photography is a trade off. In sport shooting, you emphasize the moment. In landscapes, you have the time to set up the tripod and use longer exposures and layered composites to gain the effect you want, you can move around until the background elements line up perfectly. If there's a neon green sideline element between the catchers face and the football as he pulls in the game winning pass, that's the image you get, because perfect composition takes a back seat to that moment of peak action.

if you use m4/3 gear for example, and you want to shoot landscapes, it's not going to be an ideal situation, 36mp ff would be a much better choice.

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dan

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TrickTheLight Regular Member • Posts: 199
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

SportFotoToon wrote:

For me, when it's an important moment the iso is not that critical. This is Kalian Sams of the Netherlands after winning the European Championship Baseball a couple of weeks ago. He also became a father that same day. So I had to shoot him. This is ISO 20000 with noise reduction.

Why would you shoot at 1/10,000th of a second on a stationary subject?

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osv Veteran Member • Posts: 9,970
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

TrickTheLight wrote:

osv wrote:

TrickTheLight wrote:

That number is dependent on your sport and your lens.

camera gear is not relevant to the requirement to freeze motion.

I said lens specifically for a reason. If you are shooting a 600mm lens, on a crop body, you need minimum 1/1000 shutter speed or you won't achieve good focus,

shutter speed is not relevant to focusing, they are two entirely different concepts.

but tripod and IS can change that. If you are shooting an awards ceremony, you can freeze the human beings with a very slow shutter speed. If you are trying to capture a baseball batter, you need a faster shutter speed than dog obedience trials. If you need to freeze the ocean spray in a surfing photo 1000 yards away, you need a different shutter speed than capturing a yoga pose at 4 feet away.

those things are not sports shooting, you are going way off-topic, it's not relevant.

again... gear has nothing to do with the need to freeze action.

I shoot MMA, with a 24-70mm lens, and don't need a shutter speed anywhere near 1/800. In bad light I will go down to 1/320 and accept some motion blur in really fast strikes.

i disagree, because i don't find motion blur to be acceptable.

If I have to choose between going into ISO ranges above 25,000

when did you have to shoot sports at iso25000? sounds like the wrong choice to me.

Yes, but everything in photography is a trade off.

that's just repeating what i already said, but you got lost when it came to understanding why people use fast shutter speeds to shoot sports.

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dan

sssesq Senior Member • Posts: 2,035
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400
1

TrickTheLight wrote:

SportFotoToon wrote:

For me, when it's an important moment the iso is not that critical. This is Kalian Sams of the Netherlands after winning the European Championship Baseball a couple of weeks ago. He also became a father that same day. So I had to shoot him. This is ISO 20000 with noise reduction.

Why would you shoot at 1/10,000th of a second on a stationary subject?

Looks like a typo...at iso 20k on a dim field ss would be ~1/1000.  As to high iso shots here is one 4 U.  D5 Raw and final process with Dx0.

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ZurichPhoto Contributing Member • Posts: 644
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

I don't think anyone doubts  that it's possible to get usable images at 25,600 ISO with modern camera technology and a little post-processing magic, especially if the content is truly compelling. With a $7,000 camera and $5,000 lens -- we better!  But I think its a rare and highly skilled photographer indeed who can shoot an entire game at that ISO and come away whistling-satisfied with the overall quality of their work. For those who can, I salute you!

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sssesq Senior Member • Posts: 2,035
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

ZurichPhoto wrote:

I don't think anyone doubts that it's possible to get usable images at 25,600 ISO with modern camera technology and a little post-processing magic, especially if the content is truly compelling. With a $7,000 camera and $5,000 lens -- we better! But I think its a rare and highly skilled photographer indeed who can shoot an entire game at that ISO and come away whistling-satisfied with the overall quality of their work. For those who can, I salute you!

I have not needed to shoot much at 25K, but Friday I will try a quarter and see how it goes.  I will shoot f3.5 at 1/2000 sec...that autta do it.   C me Sunday.  

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(unknown member) Forum Member • Posts: 58
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

Shutter speed was 1/1000 at 5.6.  Not the ideal settings for this shot but after the end of the game it was quite hectic with celebrations so I choose for this settings to be on the safe side.

sssesq Senior Member • Posts: 2,035
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

sssesq wrote:

ZurichPhoto wrote:

I don't think anyone doubts that it's possible to get usable images at 25,600 ISO with modern camera technology and a little post-processing magic, especially if the content is truly compelling. With a $7,000 camera and $5,000 lens -- we better! But I think its a rare and highly skilled photographer indeed who can shoot an entire game at that ISO and come away whistling-satisfied with the overall quality of their work. For those who can, I salute you!

I have not needed to shoot much at 25K, but Friday I will try a quarter and see how it goes. I will shoot f3.5 at 1/2000 sec...that autta do it. C me Sunday.

Well, these are jpg severly cropped and treated in DxO. The first will be the full frame, followed by some of the processed.  Needless to say the massive crop degrades the image.  I will process the raw soon and post it along with some FF 25.6K iso.

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 18,322
Re: High ISO shooting - 25600 to 102400

Jules Winnfield wrote:

I just picked up my first full frame camera, a Canon 5Diii. This was primarily for night time sports on a high school field. Until now, I have been using a 7dii.

I am very impressed with what I could get in a dark basement using the high iso settings. However, I can see that it is a balancing act between choosing a lower shutter speed vs accepting the increased noise of the high iso settings. I am trying to figure out where my highest usable iso setting will be.

Do any of you sports shooters have any input?

In a tug of war between ISO and shutter speed, shutter speed has to win. IMO motion blur in action photos ruins them. Some say 'it gives the feeling of movement', well you can get that 'feeling of movement' with a $69 camera from Walmart. Yes, there are some kinds of action shots with motion blur that are excellent but too many photos just look bad with it.

Use a fast enough shutter speed to genuinely freeze the action of the shot and let that determine what ISO you can get away with using. If you can't freeze the action the shot's not worthwhile at any 'noise' level IMO.

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