New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

Started Sep 10, 2016 | Discussions
Tom_N Forum Pro • Posts: 14,274
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

noirdesir wrote:

ArtAlt wrote:

I doubt though that older devices have wide gamut screens, although it is possible.

Only the 9.7" iPad Pro (and the iPhone 7) have wide gamut screens. Apple wouldn't tout the wide-gamut screen of the 9.7" iPad Pro but not tout it on the 12.9" iPad Pro if the latter also had it. Ditto for iPhones.

Don't forget the current Retina iMacs, which also have wide gamut screens.

As for iPads, the comparison screen on Apple's site confirms what you are saying.  It lists "Wide color display (P3)" and "True Tone display" as features of the 9.7" iPad Pro, but not of any other iPad model (including the 12.9" iPad Pro).

http://www.apple.com/ipad/compare/

sunlit New Member • Posts: 10
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

Can please anyone make clear in plain terms a few basic points, like: what exact real life scenarious are there for us to see wide gamut content on latest iphones? Do they shoot and display jpegs in wide gamut? Is there sny video I can watch on my 7 plus in wide gamut? Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)
1

sunlit wrote:

Can please anyone make clear in plain terms a few basic points, like: what exact real life scenarious are there for us to see wide gamut content on latest iphones? Do they shoot and display jpegs in wide gamut? Is there sny video I can watch on my 7 plus in wide gamut? Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

Start here:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut

A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov

Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

noirdesir Forum Pro • Posts: 13,561
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

sunlit wrote:

Can please anyone make clear in plain terms a few basic points, like: what exact real life scenarious are there for us to see wide gamut content on latest iphones? Do they shoot and display jpegs in wide gamut?

There have been reports that this is the case (though I haven't seen any reports yet from people I 100% trust on this).

Is there sny video I can watch on my 7 plus in wide gamut?

Possibly video shot with the iPhone 7 (I think iOS 10 also enables wide-gamut capture on a few older devices, the iPhone 6s, the two iPad Pro models, but 'enable' doesn't necessarily mean enabled by default or accessible from the camera app, it might be restricted to third-party apps and whether it applies to video as well or only to stills is another question).

Beyond that it is probably like with 4K, there is not much available and wide-gamut is more like bit rate and compression algorithm, it is hard to find out and it might vary from video to video.

Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

That's a good question. If it shoots JPEGs in wide-gamut, they should be shareable but whether Apple by default converts everything to sRGB when sharing via most of the options or only with some is another question. Unfortunately, people who understand colour management and people who review smartphones rarely overlap.

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

noirdesir wrote:

sunlit wrote:

Can please anyone make clear in plain terms a few basic points, like: what exact real life scenarious are there for us to see wide gamut content on latest iphones? Do they shoot and display jpegs in wide gamut?

There have been reports that this is the case (though I haven't seen any reports yet from people I 100% trust on this).

IF you shoot with the iPhone in DCI-P3, which does produce a JPEG and other's view that color managed (on say another iPhone), then yes, they are viewing the wider gamut data.

Is there sny video I can watch on my 7 plus in wide gamut?

Possibly video shot with the iPhone 7 (I think iOS 10 also enables wide-gamut capture on a few older devices, the iPhone 6s, the two iPad Pro models, but 'enable' doesn't necessarily mean enabled by default or accessible from the camera app, it might be restricted to third-party apps and whether it applies to video as well or only to stills is another question).

I don't know that the video is necessarily in the wider gamut but suspect it should be (that's a basis for DCI-P3) and again, if color managed, it should appear just fine.

Beyond that it is probably like with 4K, there is not much available and wide-gamut is more like bit rate and compression algorithm, it is hard to find out and it might vary from video to video.

Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

That's a good question. If it shoots JPEGs in wide-gamut, they should be shareable but whether Apple by default converts everything to sRGB when sharing via most of the options or only with some is another question.

It doesn't have to convert, it only needs to understand the scale of the numbers. Just like Photoshop.

Unfortunately, people who understand colour management and people who review smartphones rarely overlap.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

noirdesir Forum Pro • Posts: 13,561
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

digidog wrote:

IF you shoot with the iPhone in DCI-P3, which does produce a JPEG and other's view that color managed (on say another iPhone), then yes, they are viewing the wider gamut data.

I don't have an iOS device that can shoot wide-gamut or raw (I just checked, only the iPhone 7, 7 Plus and the 9.7" iPad Pro are listed as being able to do so, though the 6s, 6s Plus and SE can capture RAW from which a wide-gamut JPEG can of course be created, at least with third-party apps, so presumably 'wide-gamut capture' means that the camera software stack can produce wide-gamut JPEGs, again whether that is limited to third-party apps via an API or an option or even the default in the camera app, I don't know).

It makes sense that on the devices that have a wide-gamut display, the JPEGs produced by the camera app are wide-gamut, even as the default setting (if there is a setting) to show off the wide-gamut display.

Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

That's a good question. If it shoots JPEGs in wide-gamut, they should be shareable but whether Apple by default converts everything to sRGB when sharing via most of the options or only with some is another question.

It doesn't have to convert, it only needs to understand the scale of the numbers. Just like Photoshop.

My point is that if you upload an image shot on the iPhone 7 to Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, etc. or send it via Messages, Whatsapp or else, wouldn't it make sense for the OS (or the specific third-party app) to convert this image to sRGB since a lot of people might view that image on non-colour managed Android devices (is Edge, the Windows browser colour-managed?)?

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)
2

noirdesir wrote:

digidog wrote:

IF you shoot with the iPhone in DCI-P3, which does produce a JPEG and other's view that color managed (on say another iPhone), then yes, they are viewing the wider gamut data.

I don't have an iOS device that can shoot wide-gamut or raw (I just checked, only the iPhone 7, 7 Plus and the 9.7" iPad Pro are listed as being able to do so, though the 6s, 6s Plus and SE can capture RAW from which a wide-gamut JPEG can of course be created, at least with third-party apps, so presumably 'wide-gamut capture' means that the camera software stack can produce wide-gamut JPEGs, again whether that is limited to third-party apps via an API or an option or even the default in the camera app, I don't know).

It makes sense that on the devices that have a wide-gamut display, the JPEGs produced by the camera app are wide-gamut, even as the default setting (if there is a setting) to show off the wide-gamut display.

Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

That's a good question. If it shoots JPEGs in wide-gamut, they should be shareable but whether Apple by default converts everything to sRGB when sharing via most of the options or only with some is another question.

It doesn't have to convert, it only needs to understand the scale of the numbers. Just like Photoshop.

My point is that if you upload an image shot on the iPhone 7 to Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, etc. or send it via Messages, Whatsapp or else, wouldn't it make sense for the OS (or the specific third-party app) to convert this image to sRGB since a lot of people might view that image on non-colour managed Android devices (is Edge, the Windows browser colour-managed?)?

The data is either tagged and the viewing method color managed or it isn't. Using sRGB doesn't solve this issue when untagged data or non color managed applications attempt to preview the data. On a wide gamut display, without color management, sRGB looks rather awful and Adobe RGB (1998) better (but not necessarily correct):

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

The downsides of an all sRGB workflow

sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices

The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology

Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4

Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

sunlit New Member • Posts: 10
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)
1

As much as I appreciate your general color management  theory replies, guys, I still hope to hear specific to the point answers as well.

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

sunlit wrote:

Can please anyone make clear in plain terms a few basic points, like: what exact real life scenarious are there for us to see wide gamut content on latest iphones?

ON a newer iPhone, you ARE seeing the wider gamut data IF it's wider than sRGB gamut.

Do they shoot and display jpegs in wide gamut?

Yes, and BOTH:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2016/712/

Is there sny video I can watch on my 7 plus in wide gamut?

Yes, video's shot in a wider gamut! You may see this in P3 or sRGB depending on the final device and it's understanding of the data which can be P3 or sRGB!

Can I share wide gamut pics or videos from my iphone?

Yes. As to what other's see, that's a crap shoot and has been long before wide gamut displays existed.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

noirdesir Forum Pro • Posts: 13,561
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

digidog wrote:

The data is either tagged and the viewing method color managed or it isn't. Using sRGB doesn't solve this issue when untagged data or non color managed applications attempt to preview the data. On a wide gamut display, without color management, sRGB looks rather awful and Adobe RGB (1998) better (but not necessarily correct):

Well, very few if any Android devices have a wide-gamut screen and things are not much better with Windows computers outside of photography or design professionals and serious amateurs. In fact, almost anybody seeking out a wide-gamut display knows about the basics of colour management. Hey, even Apple added full-blown colour management to iOS as it rolled out wide-gamut displays in iOS devices. Point being, viewing an sRGB image without colour management on a wide-gamut monitor is a pretty rare occurrence.

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

It isn't about ensuring a visual match, is about avoiding a gross undersaturation. Almost all images served on web sites are posted in sRGB for a reason. This is not about not tagging the images, of course anybody with an ounce of colour management knowledge will not put untagged images up.

If the receiving side does colour management, all the better. If the receiving side has made some efforts to get somewhat close to sRGB (like many years of Apple devices), that's ok-ish as well. If the receiving side is only very roughly in the sRGB ballpark, than an sRGB jpeg is still better than an Adobe RGB jpeg.

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

noirdesir wrote:

digidog wrote:

The data is either tagged and the viewing method color managed or it isn't. Using sRGB doesn't solve this issue when untagged data or non color managed applications attempt to preview the data. On a wide gamut display, without color management, sRGB looks rather awful and Adobe RGB (1998) better (but not necessarily correct):

Well, very few if any Android devices have a wide-gamut screen and things are not much better with Windows computers outside of photography or design professionals and serious amateurs.

And apparently no system wide, automatic OS color management which iOS does.

I doubt Apple cares, nor should they, how poor color might appear on Android devices.

In fact, almost anybody seeking out a wide-gamut display knows about the basics of colour management.

You need color management for it and sRGB gamut for displaying colors.

Hey, even Apple added full-blown colour management to iOS as it rolled out wide-gamut displays in iOS devices. Point being, viewing an sRGB image without colour management on a wide-gamut monitor is a pretty rare occurrence.

Viewing sRGB without color management is also problematic!

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

It isn't about ensuring a visual match, is about avoiding a gross undersaturation.

No, it is about ensuring a visual match. That's the job of color management!

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2016/712/

With wide gamut displays and sRGB outside color management, a gross over saturation. Not an issue with iOS. That's good. For others????

Almost all images served on web sites are posted in sRGB for a reason.

The reason is, some do not view the data using color management on a display that's kind of, sort of, sometimes close to sRGB gamut.

WHEN using color management, ANY color space is fair game.

This is not about not tagging the images, of course anybody with an ounce of colour management knowledge will not put untagged images up.

Well there are some reasons not to (the profile takes up a mere 4K but considering someone posting 10 million imags; it ads up). But yes, untagged color images are a problem.

If the receiving side does colour management, all the better. If the receiving side has made some efforts to get somewhat close to sRGB (like many years of Apple devices), that's ok-ish as well. If the receiving side is only very roughly in the sRGB ballpark, than an sRGB jpeg is still better than an Adobe RGB jpeg.

Apple, at least on iOS since about version 9.0.3 has been fully automatically color managed. The Mac OS since pretty much day one.

Ballpark is kind of OK sometimes. Correct, expected, matching color is better. That's what the Apple engineers have been providing a very long time.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

noirdesir Forum Pro • Posts: 13,561
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)
1

sunlit wrote:

As much as I appreciate your general color management theory replies, guys, I still hope to hear specific to the point answers as well.

I think Rodney already did (confirming my guesses):

1) Shoot images or video on a wide-gamut iOS device (iPhone 7, 7+, 9.7" iPad Pro) and viewed on that device, on other iPhone 7, 7+ or 9.7" iPad Pro devices, on 2015 4K and 5K iMacs and on 2016 MBPs as well as on wide-gamut Windows machines, you will see the wide gamut.

2) Which third-party sources provide wide-gamut images or videos is something to answer on a case-by-case basis. For example, as I understand it, Lloyd Chambers posts images in wide-gamut on its site. I just downloaded a random, recent sample image for a new camera from DPreview and it was an sRGB image. Essentially you have test or ask each provider individually.

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

noirdesir wrote:

sunlit wrote:

As much as I appreciate your general color management theory replies, guys, I still hope to hear specific to the point answers as well.

I think Rodney already did (confirming my guesses):

1) Shoot images or video on a wide-gamut iOS device (iPhone 7, 7+, 9.7" iPad Pro) and viewed on that device, on other iPhone 7, 7+ or 9.7" iPad Pro devices, on 2015 4K and 5K iMacs and on 2016 MBPs as well as on wide-gamut Windows machines, you will see the wide gamut.

IF the specific application was written for P3. If not, the OS does an on the fly conversion to sRGB. Pretty cool!

2) Which third-party sources provide wide-gamut images or videos is something to answer on a case-by-case basis. For example, as I understand it, Lloyd Chambers posts images in wide-gamut on its site. I just downloaded a random, recent sample image for a new camera from DPreview and it was an sRGB image. Essentially you have test or ask each provider individually.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

noirdesir Forum Pro • Posts: 13,561
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

digidog wrote:

noirdesir wrote:

It isn't about ensuring a visual match, is about avoiding a gross undersaturation.

No, it is about ensuring a visual match. That's the job of color management!

We are not talking about the job of colour management. We all know what it is. We are only talking about the colour space images delivered to the public at large should probably still be sent in.

When you put up family photos for extended family to see on the web, be it self-hosted, via things like Squarespace or via places like Facebook or Instagram, are you really going to put them up in Adobe RGB (or another wide-gamut colour space)?

Almost all images served on web sites are posted in sRGB for a reason.

The reason is, some do not view the data using color management on a display that's kind of, sort of, sometimes close to sRGB gamut.

Exactly. That is the essence of my whole point.

If the receiving side does colour management, all the better. If the receiving side has made some efforts to get somewhat close to sRGB (like many years of Apple devices), that's ok-ish as well. If the receiving side is only very roughly in the sRGB ballpark, than an sRGB jpeg is still better than an Adobe RGB jpeg.

Apple, at least on iOS since about version 9.0.3 has been fully automatically color managed.

Do you mean iOS 9.3? There was no 9.0.3. And iOS 9.3 was released on March 21, 2016. On the very same day, the 9.7" iPad Pro, the first iOS device with a wide-gamut display, was announced (it shipped ten days later).

I am not recommending an 'sRGB workflow' in any way, I only recommend 'sRGB delivery', of course tagged,  if there is a good chance that the receiving end doesn't do colour management.

Apple might take a gamble and say they don't care how iPhone 7 images look when sent to Android devices but will Instagram, Facebook or more photo-centric services like EyeEm do so as well?

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)
2

noirdesir wrote:

digidog wrote:

noirdesir wrote:

It isn't about ensuring a visual match, is about avoiding a gross undersaturation.

No, it is about ensuring a visual match. That's the job of color management!

We are not talking about the job of colour management. We all know what it is.

Perhaps you and I do, but everyone, even here in these numerous threads?

We are only talking about the colour space images delivered to the public at large should probably still be sent in.

With color management, it doesn't matter.

When you put up family photos for extended family to see on the web, be it self-hosted, via things like Squarespace or via places like Facebook or Instagram, are you really going to put them up in Adobe RGB (or another wide-gamut colour space)?

It has less to do with what I post and more about how others view that data. See below.

Almost all images served on web sites are posted in sRGB for a reason.

The reason is, some do not view the data using color management on a display that's kind of, sort of, sometimes close to sRGB gamut.

Exactly. That is the essence of my whole point.

Great, we're in agreement. Now what happens in a year, 3 years when a larger majority of users are working with wide gamut displays? With color management? Where does that leave sRGB? Hopefully the same path as the dodo bird.

If the receiving side does colour management, all the better. If the receiving side has made some efforts to get somewhat close to sRGB (like many years of Apple devices), that's ok-ish as well. If the receiving side is only very roughly in the sRGB ballpark, than an sRGB jpeg is still better than an Adobe RGB jpeg.

Apple, at least on iOS since about version 9.0.3 has been fully automatically color managed.

Do you mean iOS 9.3? There was no 9.0.3. And iOS 9.3 was released on March 21, 2016. On the very same day, the 9.7" iPad Pro, the first iOS device with a wide-gamut display, was announced (it shipped ten days later).

Yes, I mean iOS 9.3.

I am not recommending an 'sRGB workflow' in any way, I only recommend 'sRGB delivery', of course tagged, if there is a good chance that the receiving end doesn't do colour management.

As a general recommendation, so do I. It doesn't change what other's see, on Mac OS, iOS, with or without color management however.

Apple might take a gamble and say they don't care how iPhone 7 images look when sent to Android devices but will Instagram, Facebook or more photo-centric services like EyeEm do so as well?

IF anyone cares about color, they implement color management. They use a color managed browser after ensuring indeed, it's color managed. Or they can stick within an Apple universe where it doesn't matter because everything is color managed.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads