New Apple Products use Wide Gamut Color (P3 rather than Adobe RGB)

Apple is bringing us more colors! That is, the new iPhones use the P3 gamut rather than being limited by the traditional sRGB. This continues a trend started with last years iMac and iPad Pro.   I expect future MacBook Pro's will be P3.

The press does not seem to have picked up on this transition very much but it might be the most significant part of Apple's announcement, because it means that if they are successful at setting this new standard, longer term we will all be viewing images with a wider array of colors, looking more natural and more vibrant.

In the shorter term, it has the potential to complicate the lives of photographers. Imagine if you deliver your traditional sRGB photographs to a client and they find that the colors are not as vibrant as the P3 images they just shot on their iPhone (not that they will have any idea that they are using a wider color gamut …).

I can’t say that I’m losing sleep over this, since a brilliantly crafted image in sRGB will stomp a mediocre image that has a few more colors, but it does present a potential complication to our lives. An image that is inadvertently presented on a device in the wrong color gamut will usually look either oddly flat or oddly over-saturated, like a badly calibrated screen.

We have been living in a world where it was safe to presume sRGB, so color management in hardware and software was optional from a practical standpoint. Apple claims that their systems are fully color managed, if I understand the announcement correctly. What about Microsoft software, Windows-based computers, and Android devices. I guess we will see!

A related issue is choice of wide color gamut. The most widely used wide color gamut among photographers is "Adobe RGB", but Apple chose instead to standardize on a wide color gamut used in cinema called "P3". There is overlap among the extra colors offered by Adobe RGB and P3, but substantial differences as well.

I suspect - or at least hope - that a lot of vendors are scrambling to get on board with the new color gamut, or offer a similar variation. And I hope that color management becomes universal sooner rather than later.

Apparently the JPEG standard now supports 12 bit. Whether any software does is another matter.

http://petapixel.com/2014/01/22/jpeg-standard-gets-boost-will-support-12-bit-color-depth-lossless-compression/

noirdesir wrote:

I don't expect too much from Android (not least because OS updates spread largely only via new phones). But Microsoft should have gotten on the CM train some time ago or we would have heard Mac users dismissing windows much more vigorously. All Adobe applications have been on Windows for a long while (Photoshop got there in 1992) and according to Wikipedia got CM in 1998. If Windows didn't have useable CM, Photographers wouldn't have used it for the last 15 years or so in significant numbers. IE might have been late but Firefox got CM at least a decade ago.

There are various levels of color management, and while windows has color management, it still does not use the monitor profile, but always assumes SRGB as the monitor gamut. So you still need all applications to have full color management, which is not a trivial thing: even a thouroughly professional raw editor like Capture 1 only had full color management with TIFF and JPEG images implemented in their latest update.

It all goes hopelessly wrong when files are shared with larger color gamuts than SRGB on displays that have a wider rhan SRGB color gamut. The image tags are properly handled, but because the monitor gamut is assumed SRGB, images in e.g. Adobe rgb are displayed overly saturated.

Windows 10 apps like Photos or the new Edge browser still do not have full color management, only firefox does as a browser. If content in the new wide Apple P3 gamut will be shared with windows browsers other than firefox on wide gamut displays, you still get the garish colors.  It really is about time Microsoft would add full color management at an OS level, but they are not motivated. They started the srgb (with others) standard and seem to be very much attached to keeping it the standard.

I applaud Apple really, for finally leaving behind a color gamut standard that was once introduced to accomodate the color gamut of CRT monitors. We are now 25 years on, and modern LED technologies have the potential to device monitors with far larger color gamuts. SRG is really an awfully restraining color space, and the fact that we have become used to viewing images in a color space that cuts off true vibrancy, does not mean that there is any sense in continuing to do so.

I really hope Microsoft sees the (colorful) light in this regard, and follows Apples example on their surface pro line, and especially by finally adding full color management to Windows

Chris

ArtAlt wrote:

Apple is bringing us more colors!

No, a wider range of colors.

That is, the new iPhones use the P3 gamut rather than being limited by the traditional sRGB. This continues a trend started with last years iMac and iPad Pro. I expect future MacBook Pro's will be P3.

I hope so. I also hope this ends the 'trend' to funnel everything into a tiny gamut color space like sRGB because people believe that's a solution and that 'everything' out there is sRGB.

The press does not seem to have picked up on this transition very much but it might be the most significant part of Apple's announcement, because it means that if they are successful at setting this new standard, longer term we will all be viewing images with a wider array of colors, looking more natural and more vibrant.

I agree and hope the same.

In the shorter term, it has the potential to complicate the lives of photographers.

It doesn't have to be. What photographer can and should ignore simple color management?

Imagine if you deliver your traditional sRGB photographs to a client and they find that the colors are not as vibrant as the P3 images they just shot on their iPhone (not that they will have any idea that they are using a wider color gamut …).

sRGB in no way guarantees a proper color match. That requires color management. And with color managed app's, ANY RGB color space is fair game and works.

I can’t say that I’m losing sleep over this, since a brilliantly crafted image in sRGB will stomp a mediocre image that has a few more colors, but it does present a potential complication to our lives.

Again, important when discussing this to understand that the number of colors is an attribute of encoding what are called device values. Numbers. Might be colors, might not. An Adobe RGB (1998) image in 8-bits per color and sRGB have the same device values (what some call colors but may not be).

http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf

An image that is inadvertently presented on a device in the wrong color gamut will usually look either oddly flat or oddly over-saturated, like a badly calibrated screen.

Has noting to do with the device per se and everything to do with if it's color managed or not. Non ICC aware app's have no idea what sRGB is. It has no idea about the conditions of the display.

We have been living in a world where it was safe to presume sRGB, so color management in hardware and software was optional from a practical standpoint.

Again, assuming, using sRGB is the best solution when there is no color management but doesn't guarantee a visual match.

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2

In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:

When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices

How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check

The downsides of an all sRGB workflow

sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices

The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology

Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4

Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

Apple claims that their systems are fully color managed, if I understand the announcement correctly.

Yes, they have to be and they support (two) color spaces.

A related issue is choice of wide color gamut. The most widely used wide color gamut among photographers is "Adobe RGB", but Apple chose instead to standardize on a wide color gamut used in cinema called "P3". There is overlap among the extra colors offered by Adobe RGB and P3, but substantial differences as well.

They are similar but the P3 color space is aimed at video. Doesn't matter really because again, WITH color management, any RGB color space works as it should; color managed.

noirdesir wrote:

bmoag wrote:

iPhone 7 images will be JPEG sRGB. If they do not have correct color viewed on a non-Apple computer directly or posted to Facebook or whatever, if they do not have correct color when sent to the 95% of the Android using world the iPhone will be blamed. Apple surely knows this.

While I generally agree, I wonder what all that talk about wide-gamut image capture of the iPhone 7 was. Are they limiting it (like they might with raw capture) to third-party apps?

Raw in iOS 10 is coming so you can encode into any color space you wish.

The iPhone's from day one, like all digital cameras, produce a raw file. In iOS 10, Apple will give you that data file instead of converting to a JEPG and throwing the raw away. Just like when you set your DSLR for JPEG alone.

Manbungo Skumbaum Chimwala wrote:

This is a foolish move be Apple. Does photoshop have a P3 working color space?

What's foolish might be the opinion you've made and your misunderstanding of how Photoshop and all ICC aware applications operate with respect to such profiles.

Yes, my copy of Photoshop has a P3 working space because all one needs is the P3 ICC profile. But that doesn't matter a lick! Any RGB image from the camera will have the DCI-P3 profile embedded within it. You don't need any such profile installed, Photoshop and all other ICC aware app's recognize and use that embedded profile.

Want to convert TO DCI-P3 (and you should ask yourself why you might), then you need an ICC profile installed which is pretty simple to accomplish. Anyone who wants such a profile, easy to find or create within Photoshop itself. I'd be happy to upload a copy.

Foolish move by Apple? No, not based on the facts of how ICC Profiles operate and the fact that there's absolutely nothing you need to do in Photoshop or Lightroom, or any other ICC aware app but simply open the image itself.

Manbungo Skumbaum Chimwala wrote:

digidog wrote:

Manbungo Skumbaum Chimwala wrote:

This is a foolish move be Apple. Does photoshop have a P3 working color space?

What's foolish might be the opinion you've made and your misunderstanding of how Photoshop and all ICC aware applications operate with respect to such profiles.

Yes, my copy of Photoshop has a P3 working space because all one needs is the P3 ICC profile. But that doesn't matter a lick! Any RGB image from the camera will have the DCI-P3 profile embedded within it. You don't need any such profile installed, Photoshop and all other ICC aware app's recognize and use that embedded profile.

Want to convert TO DCI-P3 (and you should ask yourself why you might), then you need an ICC profile installed which is pretty simple to accomplish. Anyone who wants such a profile, easy to find or create within Photoshop itself. I'd be happy to upload a copy.

Foolish move by Apple? No, not based on the facts of how ICC Profiles operate and the fact that there's absolutely nothing you need to do in Photoshop or Lightroom, or any other ICC aware app but simply open the image itself.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Why would anybody want a DCI-P3 profile when editing is best done using Pro-Photo RGB?

Based on your opinion about DCI-3 and now ProPhoto RGB, you need to study up on basic color management.

Editing in ProPhoto RGB is best done in some cases, not all. IF you have raw data, if the capture exceeds say DCI-P3 gamut, a wider gamut space would be 'better'. That's not the case with the iPhone unless and until you get raw. IF it spits out DCI-P3, converting to ProPhoto RGB is pointless, causes both data loss and time lost.

Start your education here:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about color gamut

A pretty exhaustive 37 minute video examining the color gamut of RGB working spaces, images and output color spaces. All plotted in 2D and 3D to illustrate color gamut.

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorGamut.mov

Low Res (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bxSD-Xx-Q

noirdesir wrote:

.....

1. I have trouble believing that the new iPhone will by default save images taken by the built-in camera as raw/DNG files (and DNG capture and raw processing capabilities in iOS 10 also work with the iPhone 6s, the iPhone SE, and the 9.7" iPad Pro, so this wider gamut applies to those devices as well).

...

Raises a good question:  which capabilities are in the iOS for older devices?   E.g. perhaps older devices will get RAW capability?  I doubt though that older devices have wide gamut screens, although it is possible.

Chris Mak wrote:

noirdesir wrote:

I don't expect too much from Android (not least because OS updates spread largely only via new phones). But Microsoft should have gotten on the CM train some time ago or we would have heard Mac users dismissing windows much more vigorously. All Adobe applications have been on Windows for a long while (Photoshop got there in 1992) and according to Wikipedia got CM in 1998. If Windows didn't have useable CM, Photographers wouldn't have used it for the last 15 years or so in significant numbers. IE might have been late but Firefox got CM at least a decade ago.

There are various levels of color management, and while windows has color management, it still does not use the monitor profile, but always assumes SRGB as the monitor gamut. So you still need all applications to have full color management, which is not a trivial thing: even a thouroughly professional raw editor like Capture 1 only had full color management with TIFF and JPEG images implemented in their latest update.

It all goes hopelessly wrong when files are shared with larger color gamuts than SRGB on displays that have a wider rhan SRGB color gamut. The image tags are properly handled, but because the monitor gamut is assumed SRGB, images in e.g. Adobe rgb are displayed overly saturated.

Windows 10 apps like Photos or the new Edge browser still do not have full color management, only firefox does as a browser. If content in the new wide Apple P3 gamut will be shared with windows browsers other than firefox on wide gamut displays, you still get the garish colors. It really is about time Microsoft would add full color management at an OS level, but they are not motivated. They started the srgb (with others) standard and seem to be very much attached to keeping it the standard.

I applaud Apple really, for finally leaving behind a color gamut standard that was once introduced to accomodate the color gamut of CRT monitors. We are now 25 years on, and modern LED technologies have the potential to device monitors with far larger color gamuts. SRG is really an awfully restraining color space, and the fact that we have become used to viewing images in a color space that cuts off true vibrancy, does not mean that there is any sense in continuing to do so.

I really hope Microsoft sees the (colorful) light in this regard, and follows Apples example on their surface pro line, and especially by finally adding full color management to Windows

Chris

I second you. Microsoft has to follow Apple in this arena, color management must be implemented in OS level.