My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock

Started Aug 8, 2016 | Discussions
Impulses Veteran Member • Posts: 6,368
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks
1

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

Panasonic please send a fix, if possible ;-((

It's not really the lens that's at fault, at least not chiefly, it's the body(ies) inducing the shutter shock...

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Denjw
Denjw Veteran Member • Posts: 6,135
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks
1

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

May be useful to read this thread regarding stabilisation using Oly bodies with this lens.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58144871

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

You may get this effect when shooting hummers in flight

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/58015916

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jm10 Senior Member • Posts: 2,458
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock

Very nice and well executed test. Thanks for posting. Never thought of using the scope for this...have a couple of them collecting dust; now will come in handy for a test like this. Regards,

jacob

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Robiro Veteran Member • Posts: 6,775
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

Panasonic please send a fix, if possible ;-((

Don't shoot hummingbirds in e-shutter mode. You will get distorted wings.

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QVee Contributing Member • Posts: 550
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock..thanks Denjw

got it! thank you for the links, will test out these rules with the lens

Cheers!

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jimboyvr Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks

Robiro wrote:

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

Panasonic please send a fix, if possible ;-((

Don't shoot hummingbirds in e-shutter mode. You will get distorted wings.

That is what I found; unless you upgrade to the gx85 (the only body that actually cures shuttershock) e-shutter has limitations

CrisPhoto
OP CrisPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,709
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks

jimboyvr wrote:

Robiro wrote:

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

Panasonic please send a fix, if possible ;-((

Don't shoot hummingbirds in e-shutter mode. You will get distorted wings.

That is what I found; unless you upgrade to the gx85 (the only body that actually cures shuttershock) e-shutter has limitations

EM5 II, PEN-F and i think EM10 II offer true electronic first curtain. Which cures shutter shock as well ...

Christof

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darrinlingle
darrinlingle Contributing Member • Posts: 845
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock

nicely done. a lot of detail and good information.

i'm relatively new to mirrorless and m4/3 so i'm learning a lot.

i was trying to use electronic shutter (to avoid shutter shock) when taking some macro pictures with my M1. it would not let me hold the shutter open as long as i wanted in electronic mode. i had to do mechanical shutter for the shot, about 1 second. i don't understand why and would long exposures benefit the most from electronic shutter?

good to hear that the gx8 doesn't have as much trouble with the 100-400. i bought the gx8 specifically for this lens because of the dual-IS support. handholding shots at 400mm (equiv 800mm) is amazing.

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Darrin Lingle, Colorado

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Impulses Veteran Member • Posts: 6,368
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock.. WOW! ;-( , thanks

CrisPhoto wrote:

jimboyvr wrote:

Robiro wrote:

QVee wrote:

Thank you Cris for the good detective work.

I knew there was something wrong with when I started shooting the lens (Lumix 100-400mm) I thought it was me using the IBIS of the M-5 and the OIS at the same time the first time out with the combo.

Second time with the OIS on the lens turn off, it got worse, most of my Humming bird shots were blurred, I thought it was my poor photo skills (could well be but with other zoom combos (Nikon1, sony Emount) the humming birds images were perfectly in focus no blur.

I will try the E shutter with this lens, thanks again

Panasonic please send a fix, if possible ;-((

Don't shoot hummingbirds in e-shutter mode. You will get distorted wings.

That is what I found; unless you upgrade to the gx85 (the only body that actually cures shuttershock) e-shutter has limitations

EM5 II, PEN-F and i think EM10 II offer true electronic first curtain. Which cures shutter shock as well ...

Christof

EM10 II still has the old style shutter with the dummy first curtain, I believe.

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BillSprague Senior Member • Posts: 1,504
Re: My PL100-400 does not like shutter shock

Owning the 100-400 lens and a GX8 to go with it, I selfishly started another topic about trying to narrow in on how to avoid the shutter shock as much as possible.

Please consider adding suggestions.  Thanks.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4038575

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Bill Sprague

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 30,323
Shutters
1

Impulses wrote:

CrisPhoto wrote:

EM5 II, PEN-F and i think EM10 II offer true electronic first curtain. Which cures shutter shock as well ...

EM10 II still has the old style shutter with the dummy first curtain, I believe.

Helen and others appear to have confirmed that only the E-M5ii and the Pen-F have the shutter that can prevent the first curtain running and use true shock-less EFCS operation.

The E-M10ii and others with 0 sec anti-shock always run the first curtain but delay the EFCS for approx 1/40 second to wait for the shock to dissipate. It auto disables above 1/320 sec but evidence seems to be that it really is needed at up to maybe 1/500 sec.

The risk is that at faster shutter speeds a mismatch between the electronic EFCS speed and the spring loaded second shutter speed would cause uneven exposure down the frame.

My E-P5 tells me this when setting the 0 sec anti-shock: "When shutter speed is 1/320 or less, the first shutter curtain is switched from mechanical to electronic to reduce blur caused by shutter impact." In reality of course with the E-P5 the first curtain still runs though the ambiguous text could mislead some. Do the E-M5ii and Pen-F have the same text in the Custom Menus?

Regards.... Guy

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Impulses Veteran Member • Posts: 6,368
Re: Shutters

Guy Parsons wrote:

Impulses wrote:

CrisPhoto wrote:

EM5 II, PEN-F and i think EM10 II offer true electronic first curtain. Which cures shutter shock as well ...

EM10 II still has the old style shutter with the dummy first curtain, I believe.

Helen and others appear to have confirmed that only the E-M5ii and the Pen-F have the shutter that can prevent the first curtain running and use true shock-less EFCS operation.

The E-M10ii and others with 0 sec anti-shock always run the first curtain but delay the EFCS for approx 1/40 second to wait for the shock to dissipate. It auto disables above 1/320 sec but evidence seems to be that it really is needed at up to maybe 1/500 sec.

The risk is that at faster shutter speeds a mismatch between the electronic EFCS speed and the spring loaded second shutter speed would cause uneven exposure down the frame.

My E-P5 tells me this when setting the 0 sec anti-shock: "When shutter speed is 1/320 or less, the first shutter curtain is switched from mechanical to electronic to reduce blur caused by shutter impact." In reality of course with the E-P5 the first curtain still runs though the ambiguous text could mislead some. Do the E-M5ii and Pen-F have the same text in the Custom Menus?

Regards.... Guy

I can check later.

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Helen
Helen Veteran Member • Posts: 6,059
Re: Shutters

Guy Parsons wrote:

Impulses wrote:

CrisPhoto wrote:

EM5 II, PEN-F and i think EM10 II offer true electronic first curtain. Which cures shutter shock as well ...

EM10 II still has the old style shutter with the dummy first curtain, I believe.

Helen and others appear to have confirmed that only the E-M5ii and the Pen-F have the shutter that can prevent the first curtain running and use true shock-less EFCS operation.

The E-M10ii and others with 0 sec anti-shock always run the first curtain but delay the EFCS for approx 1/40 second to wait for the shock to dissipate. It auto disables above 1/320 sec but evidence seems to be that it really is needed at up to maybe 1/500 sec.

The risk is that at faster shutter speeds a mismatch between the electronic EFCS speed and the spring loaded second shutter speed would cause uneven exposure down the frame.

My E-P5 tells me this when setting the 0 sec anti-shock: "When shutter speed is 1/320 or less, the first shutter curtain is switched from mechanical to electronic to reduce blur caused by shutter impact." In reality of course with the E-P5 the first curtain still runs though the ambiguous text could mislead some. Do the E-M5ii and Pen-F have the same text in the Custom Menus?

Regards.... Guy

Yes they do. more or less.  They say: "When shutter speed is 1/320 or less, the first shutter curtain is switched to electronic.  Select the post-shutter release delay time."

glassoholic
glassoholic Senior Member • Posts: 2,895
Brilliant as always
1

Christof... excellent as usual thank you.

A point I was thinking...

Maybe the telescoping vs internal designs of Pana 100-400 vs Oly 40-150 and in general this design difference might make one lens more susceptible than another?

Getting the sharpness right using e-shutter really turns certain shots like of birds or landscapes upside down in terms of enjoyment.

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CrisPhoto
OP CrisPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,709
Re: Brilliant as always
1

glassoholic wrote:

Christof... excellent as usual thank you.

A point I was thinking...

Maybe the telescoping vs internal designs of Pana 100-400 vs Oly 40-150 and in general this design difference might make one lens more susceptible than another?

Getting the sharpness right using e-shutter really turns certain shots like of birds or landscapes upside down in terms of enjoyment.

Good point.

But I don't think so.

It's highly speculative (watch my failed guess that EM10 II has true EFC) but as the shutter shock signature is very similar at all focal length from 100 to 400mm, I don't think that "the long tube" in front is the problem. I tend to think that I guess that the OIS is the bad guy. While the OIS is very very effective in reducing hand motion, I have learned during my electronics diploma that feedback loops (and the OIS will for sure have a feedback loop) with high amplification tend to show some cutoff frequency resonance. Maybe the OIS can be configured per firmware to operate a little bit smoother, this could reduce the vibration I have observed.

But this is very speculative, I don't know much about OIS design and lens firmware.

Currently I enjoy the lens very much, coupled with my EM1 (or even better with my EM52), I use EFC and never had a lens with 300mm or more which gave satisfying results more consistently.

Christof

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Ken Strain Regular Member • Posts: 449
Re: Brilliant as always
1

CrisPhoto wrote:

glassoholic wrote:

Christof... excellent as usual thank you.

A point I was thinking...

Maybe the telescoping vs internal designs of Pana 100-400 vs Oly 40-150 and in general this design difference might make one lens more susceptible than another?

Getting the sharpness right using e-shutter really turns certain shots like of birds or landscapes upside down in terms of enjoyment.

Good point.

But I don't think so.

It's highly speculative (watch my failed guess that EM10 II has true EFC) but as the shutter shock signature is very similar at all focal length from 100 to 400mm, I don't think that "the long tube" in front is the problem. I tend to think that I guess that the OIS is the bad guy. While the OIS is very very effective in reducing hand motion, I have learned during my electronics diploma that feedback loops (and the OIS will for sure have a feedback loop) with high amplification tend to show some cutoff frequency resonance. Maybe the OIS can be configured per firmware to operate a little bit smoother, this could reduce the vibration I have observed.

But this is very speculative, I don't know much about OIS design and lens firmware.

Currently I enjoy the lens very much, coupled with my EM1 (or even better with my EM52), I use EFC and never had a lens with 300mm or more which gave satisfying results more consistently.

Christof

I don't have one of these lenses to examine, but another factor to add to the mix is flex at the lens mount. This variable can affect the dynamics of the situation by working in conjunction with the relatively high rotational inertia of the lens to create a resonance. In unfortunate situations this resonance could coincide with a component of the shutter shock.

In early tests with accelerometers and a 75-300mm, which is of course much lighter, I saw that the camera body and lens would pitch by different amounts due to shutter shock. That will affect the amount of blur. Not all cameras and lenses will have the same mount stiffness, that is clear.

Also consider whether the exit pupil is more or less fixed as the lens zooms. (Look in the back from a distance of 50cm or so to see if the iris looks about the same distance away as the zoom is adjusted.) That would be an argument in support of a lens-body interaction if the blur in pixels does not change much over the zoom range (therefore changes a lot in terms of pitch angle and subject blur).

I observed this effect with two E-PM2s with the 75-300 (the longest lens I had at the time).

If there is movement/resonance in the OIS unit* the stiffness of the particular lens-camera mount (working with the inertia of the lens) will determine the extent to which the OIS resonance, assuming there is one, is excited. The same goes for resonance of the focus group (which for the linear motor type could be significant too).

The only reliable way to avoid shutter shock is to have a body with a smooth and quiet shutter. That can either be a model which never has shock, or a lucky sample of a camera model that often has shock. They almost certainly exist.

Ken

Technical bit:

* The OIS is likely to have a servo bandwidth below or around 100 Hz (an educated guess). If so the frequencies seen in the 'scope traces shown above (on the 20ms/div scale): are faster than or around the upper closed loop unity gain frequency (OIS has upper and lower UGFs). You know what that means and yes, the resulting closed loop resonance is probably not critically damped: the trade-off for high gain around perhaps 10 Hz where it matters most is surely a compromise. It is hard to measure the resonances involved (non-destructively), but the structures look as if they are likely to have modes at a couple of hundred Hz at the very highest and perhaps even lower.  Given that the servo will have to be stable without adjustment over many OIS units with their tolerances (I doubt that they would be individually calibrated), I therefore expect that the UGF is probably below 100 Hz and certainly not much more.  If someone has better information, it would be great to read about it.

CrisPhoto
OP CrisPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,709
Re: Brilliant as always
1

Ken Strain wrote:

CrisPhoto wrote:

...

I don't have one of these lenses to examine, but another factor to add to the mix is flex at the lens mount. This variable can affect the dynamics of the situation by working in conjunction with the relatively high rotational inertia of the lens to create a resonance. In unfortunate situations this resonance could coincide with a component of the shutter shock.

In early tests with accelerometers and a 75-300mm, which is of course much lighter, I saw that the camera body and lens would pitch by different amounts due to shutter shock. That will affect the amount of blur. Not all cameras and lenses will have the same mount stiffness, that is clear.

Also consider whether the exit pupil is more or less fixed as the lens zooms. (Look in the back from a distance of 50cm or so to see if the iris looks about the same distance away as the zoom is adjusted.) That would be an argument in support of a lens-body interaction if the blur in pixels does not change much over the zoom range (therefore changes a lot in terms of pitch angle and subject blur).

I observed this effect with two E-PM2s with the 75-300 (the longest lens I had at the time).

If there is movement/resonance in the OIS unit* the stiffness of the particular lens-camera mount (working with the inertia of the lens) will determine the extent to which the OIS resonance, assuming there is one, is excited. The same goes for resonance of the focus group (which for the linear motor type could be significant too).

The only reliable way to avoid shutter shock is to have a body with a smooth and quiet shutter. That can either be a model which never has shock, or a lucky sample of a camera model that often has shock. They almost certainly exist.

Ken

Technical bit:

* The OIS is likely to have a servo bandwidth below or around 100 Hz (an educated guess). If so the frequencies seen in the 'scope traces shown above (on the 20ms/div scale): are faster than or around the upper closed loop unity gain frequency (OIS has upper and lower UGFs). You know what that means and yes, the resulting closed loop resonance is probably not critically damped: the trade-off for high gain around perhaps 10 Hz where it matters most is surely a compromise. It is hard to measure the resonances involved (non-destructively), but the structures look as if they are likely to have modes at a couple of hundred Hz at the very highest and perhaps even lower. Given that the servo will have to be stable without adjustment over many OIS units with their tolerances (I doubt that they would be individually calibrated), I therefore expect that the UGF is probably below 100 Hz and certainly not much more. If someone has better information, it would be great to read about it.

Interesting points.

I think the Panasonic engineers will know exact details and most of us here only need to know how to handle the lens/camera combo to get the best results ...

But, anyhow, continuing the speculative guess talk:

  • Lens mount could be involved, the PL100-400 has a rotating tripod mount/barrel. This could be a weak point
  • On the other hand, the lens behaves very similar on EM5, EM52 and EM1. So it is not a specific mount.
  • It behave similar on tripod, on tripod with L-plate and holding it with two hands. So i guess it's not the lens body
  • It is similar at every focal length (though most pronounced/magnified at 400mm) -> It's probably not the extending front tube

It looks like some internal thing. Which could be either the AF lens group or most probable the OIS lens. By chance, the Olympus 300/f4 has a similar shutter shock weakness and it has an OIS too...

Regarding the OIS resonance, if the OIS stabilisation gain is 5 stops (which is a factor of 32) at 5Hz, you need at least an open loop amplification of 32. If the amplification goes down linear with the frequency, we would have unity gain and resonance at 160 Hz. While 5Hz and 32 are a wild guess, my rough calculation shows that the observed vibration of 175Hz (that is what you see on the scope) could be explained by OIS feedback loop. It is still a guess, it could also be 100Hz or 400 or the engineers might have tuned the o.i.s. parameters perfectly and I am totally wrong.

Christof

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Bobby J Veteran Member • Posts: 4,734
Re: Question for you Christof.

1st let me say that I am a bit overwhelmed by all this technical information.  Impressed very much.  Some I understand perfectly, some not so much.

Now would this work to get constantly sharp results?  Turn off all image stabilization.  Mount the camera and lens on a sturdy tripod.  Rest one hand on the lens and grip the camera firmly with the other while pressing your cheek and eye against the camera.  Use the electronic 1st curtain for reducing effect of shutter shock.  Then shoot.

This is basically what we used to do with the old film cameras, and the technique I've used with my old 4:3 system, and now with the 75x300 m4:3 lens on my EM-1.  I simply haven't had any softness that looked like shutter shock to me.

Just curious to see your thoughts on this.

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CrisPhoto
OP CrisPhoto Senior Member • Posts: 1,709
Re: Question for you Christof.
1

Bobby J wrote:

1st let me say that I am a bit overwhelmed by all this technical information. Impressed very much. Some I understand perfectly, some not so much.

Now would this work to get constantly sharp results? Turn off all image stabilization. Mount the camera and lens on a sturdy tripod. Rest one hand on the lens and grip the camera firmly with the other while pressing your cheek and eye against the camera. Use the electronic 1st curtain for reducing effect of shutter shock. Then shoot.

This is basically what we used to do with the old film cameras, and the technique I've used with my old 4:3 system, and now with the 75x300 m4:3 lens on my EM-1. I simply haven't had any softness that looked like shutter shock to me.

Just curious to see your thoughts on this.

The 75-300 is hard to compare with the two new tele lenses because it behaves like other mFT lenses:

  • 75-300 has some optical softness at 300mm, shutter shock is not the main issue.
  • 75-300 has well damped vibration so EM1 AntiShock=0 option will cure shutter shock 90%
  • 75-300 behaves better on tripod (and AndersW teached me some time ago that the 75-300 will improve on an extremely stable tripod)
  • 75-300 behaves a little bit different depending on hand holding or attached battery grip

None of the above seems to be true for the PL 100-400 lens (and Oly 300/f4). Which means:

  • PL100-400: at 400mm shutter shock can be the biggest issue
  • PL100-400: EM1's AntiShock=0 does not help much
  • PL100-400: A tripod does not help much
  • PL100-400: Hand holding technique will help for general stability but not against shutter shock

Christof

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kenw
kenw Veteran Member • Posts: 5,365
Re: Question for you Christof.

CrisPhoto wrote:

The 75-300 is hard to compare with the two new tele lenses because it behaves like other mFT lenses:
  • 75-300 has some optical softness at 300mm, shutter shock is not the main issue.
  • 75-300 has well damped vibration so EM1 AntiShock=0 option will cure shutter shock 90%
  • 75-300 behaves better on tripod (and AndersW teached me some time ago that the 75-300 will improve on an extremely stable tripod)
  • 75-300 behaves a little bit different depending on hand holding or attached battery grip

None of the above seems to be true for the PL 100-400 lens (and Oly 300/f4). Which means:

  • PL100-400: at 400mm shutter shock can be the biggest issue
  • PL100-400: EM1's AntiShock=0 does not help much
  • PL100-400: A tripod does not help much
  • PL100-400: Hand holding technique will help for general stability but not against shutter shock

Let me add one more potentially speculative difference.  The 75-300 does not have an OIS system while the 100-400 and 300/4 PRO both do.

The original worst shutter shock problem child was the 45-175 when first released - especially on the G3 which was a common body at the time.  While the 45-175 is still shutter shock sensitive a later firmware update greatly reduced the problem.  Clearly something in the servo control loop for the OIS on the 45-175 was making it extremely sensitive to shutter shock.  Keep in mind this was true even with the OIS was disabled because of course "disabled" simply means the OIS group is held in a fixed position by the same potentially over sensitive servo loop.

So while it is abundantly clear that even "simple" lens designs can be sensitive to shutter shock I wouldn't rule out the OIS on the 100-400 potentially making it worse in certain situations.  Honestly there is absolutely no way I can think of to establish whether the OIS plays any role at all at making the problem better or worse in this case.  We just know from past history that it *could* be a factor.  There are plenty of reasons beyond poorly tuned OIS servo loops that could easily cause this level of shutter shock sensitivity.

Anyway, just wanted to add that to the list of potentially significant differences between the 75-300 and the 100-400 shutter shock experience.

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Ken W
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