Are de-kitted lenses more prone to sample variation?

I'm about to order the Panasonic 14-140 and I know I won't have time to properly test it within the return period. Therefore, I'm trying to reduce the chances of getting a bad copy (e.g a de-centered lens) and I would like to understand from other users' experience if ordering the more expensive fully-packaged version of a lens is generally safer than the cheaper de-kitted version.

I already had one de-kitted version of the P14-140 in the past and I returned it because it had a de-centered element. However, a single case is obviously not enough for identifying a pattern whether kit lenses are more prone to sample variation than their fully-packaged counterparts. I'm wondering what other people' experience is.

I bought mine set (gx7 & 14-140) as one of the cheapest offers of new kits I found. I only checked the seller's references. 14-140 turned out to be more sharp than I expected. Maybe I was just lucky. If you won't be able to test the lens during return period the purchase of box and de-kitted will be risky. You have only olympus bodies so why not oly 14-150 instead?

BTW how did you recognize de-centered lens, what were the symptoms?

ibiza123 wrote:

I bought mine set (gx7 & 14-140) as one of the cheapest offers of new kits I found. I only checked the seller's references. 14-140 turned out to be more sharp than I expected. Maybe I was just lucky. If you won't be able to test the lens during return period the purchase of box and de-kitted will be risky. You have only olympus bodies so why not oly 14-150 instead?

BTW how did you recognize de-centered lens, what were the symptoms?

Thanks for the inputs. My wife has a new GX80 and the lens is for her.

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

I want to know that as well.  No problem at all with de kitted lenses.

But if I were speculating, I'd guess the highest risk of getting a bad lens comes from the first batch produced, before the manufacturer has had time to make any needed adjustments (human and/or mechanical) to the manufacturing process.

My experience and thinking are the opposite: Buy from the earliest batch, when the manufacturing process is closely monitored and the first produced copies are rigorously tested by the quality assurance peeps to see if everything is up to standard.

assaft wrote:

ibiza123 wrote:

I bought mine set (gx7 & 14-140) as one of the cheapest offers of new kits I found. I only checked the seller's references. 14-140 turned out to be more sharp than I expected. Maybe I was just lucky. If you won't be able to test the lens during return period the purchase of box and de-kitted will be risky. You have only olympus bodies so why not oly 14-150 instead?

BTW how did you recognize de-centered lens, what were the symptoms?

Thanks for the inputs. My wife has a new GX80 and the lens is for her.

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

Pretty noticeable even on my phone's screen... I doubt you run a higher risk with a de-kitted lens (if the OEM isn't testing them then sellers surely aren't gonna unless you find the one exception out there)... But the risk is always there, so if you absolutely don't wanna bother reselling a second one then don't bother.

I'd probably risk it given the pretty good discount you generally get on the G body + 14-140 kits.

It's been around well over a year, kitted with multiple bodies, and already undergone a mild aesthetic revision (to matte exterior)... So yeah, it's a moot point, first production run is long gone.

I think if anything, refurbs might undergo a little additional testing since the manufacturer doesn't wanna see it returned yet again... I dunno where Pana refurbs are readily available stateside tho, Oly has a refurb outlet with good deals (really good sometimes) but I haven't seen a Panasonic US equivalent.

TheEye wrote:

I think that people who are not happy with their kit lens may sell it rather than keep it. So de-kitted lenses that are sold are probably at least sometimes not-so-good ones.

I suspect the OP is referring to de-kitted lenses sold by dealers who split the kit and sell it rather than individuals who have used it and found fault.

My 14-141 MkII came to me secondhand but mint in a G6 kit & I sold the body when I upgraded to a de-kitted G7 body. My copy of the lens is razor sharp for what it is

Dave

saudidave wrote:

TheEye wrote:

I think that people who are not happy with their kit lens may sell it rather than keep it. So de-kitted lenses that are sold are probably at least sometimes not-so-good ones.

I suspect the OP is referring to de-kitted lenses sold by dealers who split the kit and sell it rather than individuals who have used it and found fault.

Correct.

My 14-141 MkII came to me secondhand but mint in a G6 kit & I sold the body when I upgraded to a de-kitted G7 body. My copy of the lens is razor sharp for what it is

Dave

Impulses wrote:

It's been around well over a year, kitted with multiple bodies, and already undergone a mild aesthetic revision (to matte exterior)... So yeah, it's a moot point, first production run is long gone.

Yeah, while I think that both Pikme and Danielvr gave sound reasons for the first batch to be better/worse than the next ones, in the case of the P14-140 it's a moot point.

I think if anything, refurbs might undergo a little additional testing since the manufacturer doesn't wanna see it returned yet again... I dunno where Pana refurbs are readily available stateside tho, Oly has a refurb outlet with good deals (really good sometimes) but I haven't seen a Panasonic US equivalent.

Buying refurbished is also an option, but yeah, it's unclear what the QC standards are. I think that Lensrentals are considered pretty reliable and trustworthy, as they test and grade the quality of their equipment in-house. Unfortunately they don't have the 14-140 for sale at the moment.

Impulses wrote:

assaft wrote:

ibiza123 wrote:

I bought mine set (gx7 & 14-140) as one of the cheapest offers of new kits I found. I only checked the seller's references. 14-140 turned out to be more sharp than I expected. Maybe I was just lucky. If you won't be able to test the lens during return period the purchase of box and de-kitted will be risky. You have only olympus bodies so why not oly 14-150 instead?

BTW how did you recognize de-centered lens, what were the symptoms?

Thanks for the inputs. My wife has a new GX80 and the lens is for her.

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

Pretty noticeable even on my phone's screen... I doubt you run a higher risk with a de-kitted lens (if the OEM isn't testing them then sellers surely aren't gonna unless you find the one exception out there)... But the risk is always there, so if you absolutely don't wanna bother reselling a second one then don't bother.

I'd probably risk it given the pretty good discount you generally get on the G body + 14-140 kits.

The de-centered 14-140 was part of a GX80 kit. I returned the lens and kept the body, so now I only need a replacement for the lens.

Thanks for all the inputs. I realize that it's quite hard to reach a conclusion about this kind of questions, but it's not really a possibility for me to leave my wife lens-less so I have to find a replacement for her. I will probably take the risk and order a non-kit version, hoping this sample will perform better than the one I got with the GX80.

I was under the impression that Amazon's 14 days return period is the most generous one, but now I see that B&H offer 30 days. This makes it more doable for me to test the lens and return it if need be.

assaft wrote:

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

You would perhaps get even better test if you put the camera on the tripod and shot a resolution chart, then turned the chart upside down and shot again. Anyway I have not tested mine 14-140 this way, will do it soon, thank you

ibiza123 wrote:

assaft wrote:

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

You would perhaps get even better test if you put the camera on the tripod and shot a resolution chart, then turned the chart upside down and shot again.

Sounds like a good idea. I didn't try that.

I would add that it's important to test the lens both at relatively close distances and at far distances. Resolution charts are the best for close distances, or when zooming from further away. But it's hard to use them when shooting from a distance, especially when the lens is at 14mm or thereabout.

Anyway I have not tested mine 14-140 this way, will do it soon, thank you

I will probably take the risk and order a non-kit version, hoping this sample will perform better than the one I got with the GX80.

If you're going to test the lens for decentering, apparently you shouldn't do so straight out of the box but give it some exercise first; repeatedly zoom it in and out, focus it close and afar, gently tap its sides, et cetera. That should help all parts and elements fall into place and wear in a bit. After that, its performance should/could be more representative of how it will perform in the years to come (I think I read about this at the lensrentals site, but I can't find the post in question anymore. Still, I thought it made sense).

ibiza123 wrote:

assaft wrote:

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

You would perhaps get even better test if you put the camera on the tripod and shot a resolution chart, then turned the chart upside down and shot again. Anyway I have not tested mine 14-140 this way, will do it soon, thank you

It sounds simpler but it's probably also a lot easier to mess up alignment with a flat chart that's relatively close...

assaft wrote:

Impulses wrote:

assaft wrote:

ibiza123 wrote:

I bought mine set (gx7 & 14-140) as one of the cheapest offers of new kits I found. I only checked the seller's references. 14-140 turned out to be more sharp than I expected. Maybe I was just lucky. If you won't be able to test the lens during return period the purchase of box and de-kitted will be risky. You have only olympus bodies so why not oly 14-150 instead?

BTW how did you recognize de-centered lens, what were the symptoms?

Thanks for the inputs. My wife has a new GX80 and the lens is for her.

Regarding recognizing a de-centered lens - there are several ways to do that, and what's common to all of them is that you want to compare how a certain object looks when it is is captured at different areas of the frame. For example, in one image you put it in the top right corner, and in the other in the bottom left corner. A common way to do this is by taking two pictures of the same scene, the first with the camera held normally and the second when it is upside down. Then you can crop certain areas of the two images and compare them. If you see that a certain corner or side is substantially softer than the others then you have a de-centered lens. Of course the shutter speed has to be fast enough to rule out hand shake, shutter shock, etc. And focus, and depth-of-field should also be taken care of. As far as I know it is recommended to test at the widest focal length of the lens and at its widest aperture.

This is what I got from my previous (returned) copy of the 14-140, look at 100% view to see the differences more clearly.

When captured at one corner

When captured at a different corner

Pretty noticeable even on my phone's screen... I doubt you run a higher risk with a de-kitted lens (if the OEM isn't testing them then sellers surely aren't gonna unless you find the one exception out there)... But the risk is always there, so if you absolutely don't wanna bother reselling a second one then don't bother.

I'd probably risk it given the pretty good discount you generally get on the G body + 14-140 kits.

The de-centered 14-140 was part of a GX80 kit. I returned the lens and kept the body, so now I only need a replacement for the lens.

Ahh right, got my wires crossed... In the same vein tho, if you're getting a good dekit discount I'd go for it, otherwise pass until you have the time to test it upon purchase (wish I'd practiced what I preach!).