Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Started Jun 3, 2016 | Discussions
Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Hello,

after getting my D750 and D800 I had the feeling that color and tonality in Lightroom was not really good.

So after posting in DPR forum member Iliah Borg gave me the good advice to create a profile using "dcamprof" ... see here http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57842550  (Thanks again to Iliah Borg for his advice!)...BTW: The thread reached the max. number of posts.... Thanks for all for the great discussion.

Well... The process in creating a dcamprofile profile seems to be a little time consuming and I searched in internet if some else tried it before... Lazy I know.

I found the following italian thread: http://www.juzaphoto.com/topic2.php?l=it&t=1473256

The forum member Wolf3d already had made LR profiles for the D800 and D750.

This are the links to the profiles made from Wolf3d (not my work!).

Nikon D750 - Neutral tone mapping
drive.google.com/file/d/0B1YPIKLxSTRzM0sxN19nUVpTaDA/view?usp=sharing<
Nikon D750 - Linear
drive.google.com/file/d/0B1YPIKLxSTRzYXV4WjdENEZkY2c/view?usp=sharing<

Nikon D800 - Neutral tone mapping
drive.google.com/file/d/0B1YPIKLxSTRzU3phTldCT3l6dDA/view?usp=sharing<
Nikon D800 - Linear
drive.google.com/file/d/0B1YPIKLxSTRzZVFqSTROcDlXSGc/view?usp=sharing<

Maybe some finds this intressting. I have to play around with the Profiles. But on the first glance this seems promising.

Does someone already made "dcampprof"-profiles for D800 or D750?

Nikon D750 Nikon D800
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OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Just a sample (which looks more obious on my wide gamut EIZO than the SRGB in the browser).

Applied the download D750 - Linear profile (form above).

Just quick and dirty postprocessing: WB on white Wall, manual tone Curve to fill the histogramm, some sharpening, no HSL or other things.... less then a minute post.

Left Adobe Standard (WB in same white wall)

Skin tone and tonality looks better on first glance

Let´s see your findings ....

OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

I applied the D750 linear profile to the following RAWs from my last thread:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dwxy1ngosamxuoy/2016-05-30-Photo.Ratiosol.Com-D60-Flash.nef?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t644wow2pee2ghj/2016-05-30-Photo.Ratiosol.Com-D750-Flash.nef?dl=0

New Profile D750 Left  with manual Curve (vs. D60 as Reference)
I have the feeling that the difference is mostly due to my manual curve in LR (created by trial and error)_

vs Adobe Profile see Right this time:

New  D750 Profile linear with manual curve left:

vs Adobe D750 (right)

Current findings: I can match the D750 and the D60 with the new linear Profile and a manual curve much better.

Or simply: Adobe standard Profile stinks and seems to keep me from exploiting my D750 to

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Schnapshot wrote:

Or simply: Adobe standard Profile stinks and seems to keep me from exploiting my D750 to

Yes, I never cared for that one flavor of canned profiles, at least with my Canon's.

There's another new tool you might want to test (has a 14 day trial):

http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-input-5-en/

I have to say, I didn't see anything much different from the profile I built using X-rite's product, some examples here:

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite1.tif

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite2.tif

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

New D750 Profile linear with manual curve left:

That's a very nice match, especially given the angles for the shots are slightly different, and thus light reflected from the objects back to the lens is not exactly the same intensity. If you can upload the crops of the Passport target in ProPhoto (preferably), we can calculate deltaE between the shots and post the results

You know that you do not need dcraw for dcamprof since you already have RawDigger, and it can export a CGATS device file.

Step by step, you will be able to emulate the looks, it's fun!

-- hide signature --
Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Here is a standard dcp built from (less than perfect in terms of light evenness) shot of CC SG target made by Imaging Resource (they use lights close to D55):

http://s3.amazonaws.com/IliahBorg/Nikon%20D750%20IB4IR.dcp

Forced G5 as neutral patch, used D55: "-i 20 -b G05", rest is standard, including ACR curve.

-- hide signature --
fPrime
fPrime Senior Member • Posts: 2,745
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Schnapshot wrote:

New Profile D750 Left with manual Curve (vs. D60 as Reference)
I have the feeling that the difference is mostly due to my manual curve in LR (created by trial and error)_

New D750 Profile linear with manual curve left:

Current findings: I can match the D750 and the D60 with the new linear Profile and a manual curve much better. Or simply: Adobe standard Profile stinks and seems to keep me from exploiting my D750.

You wouldn't be the first one here to find fault with Adobe's camera profiling, Alex.

Even with this linear profile, however, I still see too much color mismatch on my calibrated monitor.

  • On the first comparison the D750's red is still pushed to orange on the toothpaste, the table surface, and pink side of the dual toned ball.
  • On the second comparison the D750's green is improved in both the frog and green color patch but still not as rich as the D60. The color chart suggests that this linear profile is over-driving the pink patch but under-driving the orange patch. The lack of orange saturation could explain the D750's bland fish & subdued fabric despite the fact that the red color patch appears to be a closer match. It's like pulling a tight bed sheet over a big mattress... one side looks better, the other worse.

It'll be interesting to see if you can get a closer profile match within LR when you build your own custom profile. Given that both Nikon's NX-D own camera profiling and C1 Pro's highly regarded color profiles still showed color gaps between these two cameras, it wouldn't surprise me at all if individual users also couldn't overcome the limitations of the CFA's. But let's see!

fPrime

 fPrime's gear list:fPrime's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Fujifilm FinePix S5 Pro Nikon D1X Nikon D200 Nikon D700
Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Even with this linear profile, however, I still see too much color mismatch on my calibrated monitor.

"Match" is achieved through sampling the target to be matched and using the sampling results as a reference, not in any other way.

-- hide signature --
OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

digidog wrote:

Schnapshot wrote:

Or simply: Adobe standard Profile stinks and seems to keep me from exploiting my D750 to

Yes, I never cared for that one flavor of canned profiles, at least with my Canon's.

There's another new tool you might want to test (has a 14 day trial):

http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-input-5-en/

I have to say, I didn't see anything much different from the profile I built using X-rite's product, some examples here:

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite1.tif

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite2.tif

The Botton picture/profile of both tif is much nicer.

I like the bottom one much more. It think the difference is simple visible
Which one is the one made basiccolor? It the Top one hte X-Rite one?

OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Iliah Borg wrote:

Here is a standard dcp built from (less than perfect in terms of light evenness) shot of CC SG target made by Imaging Resource (they use lights close to D55):

http://s3.amazonaws.com/IliahBorg/Nikon%20D750%20IB4IR.dcp

Forced G5 as neutral patch, used D55: "-i 20 -b G05", rest is standard, including ACR curve.

Hi Iliah,

thank you very much for your effort! I will try the profile.

Regarding RawDigger: I got the RawDigger Exposure Edition.
For building profiles like the one from you I most likely need to write CGATS formats with RawDigger?!? And then go on with dcamprof?!?

Which RawDigger Edition do I need: RawDigger Research Edition or RawDigger Profile Edition as both can write CGATS?

Is there an Upgrade Option from the Standard to the other Editions?

Thanks again

Alex

OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

fPrime wrote:

You wouldn't be the first one here to find fault with Adobe's camera profiling, Alex.

Even with this linear profile, however, I still see too much color mismatch on my calibrated monitor.

  • On the first comparison the D750's red is still pushed to orange on the toothpaste, the table surface, and pink side of the dual toned ball.
  • On the second comparison the D750's green is improved in both the frog and green color patch but still not as rich as the D60. The color chart suggests that this linear profile is over-driving the pink patch but under-driving the orange patch. The lack of orange saturation could explain the D750's bland fish & subdued fabric despite the fact that the red color patch appears to be a closer match. It's like pulling a tight bed sheet over a big mattress... one side looks better, the other worse.
fPrime

You are right. The profile are still different. The orange is most obvious....
Well I still think the older gen cams used to create "nicer" skin tones (maybe not scientificly better/corect) RAW images SOOC which required less post.
So I would buy a new CCD cam imidiatly , if it would be availabe .... However I am out of luck...

So what otions do we have in 2016
1.) Use your old cam (D200, Fuji S5, D3, ..) till it breaks down -> Good choice2.) Buy an old cam ?!? -> Well I do not like it as I had bad luck buying a used body
3.) Buy a current gen cam and make the best of it

So here we go in 2016: As I think there is almost only Option 3.) left, I will try my best to get best results from current gen cams...
Maybe this includes profiling and somepost.... Let´s see...where the journey will end... 

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Regarding RawDigger: I got the RawDigger Exposure Edition.

In this case, I would suggest waiting a couple of months before upgrading to Profile Edition, to eliminate some of the manual editing or scripting that is still needed currently. There is a slight format mismatch, dcamprof considers "A01" and "A1" to be different names, and txt2ti3 converts spectral references to XYZ, which is not the best option for dcamprof, so instead of using the result of txt2tis one may want to merge CGATS from RawDigger with spectral reference. We are going to address both inconsistencies inside RawDigger.

For building profiles like the one from you I most likely need to write CGATS formats with RawDigger?!? And then go on with dcamprof?!?

Yes.

Is there an Upgrade Option from the Standard to the other Editions?

Yes.

The point of my exercise with was to give a fair impression of what one can achieve with dcamprof out of the box, without any heavy tuning, using an available shot of colour target. The shot has a fair amount of flare (contrast reduced by more than 1 stop), and light distribution is not very even. In RawDigger, however, we do not need even light distribution, as we can apply flat field from a shot of a grey card covering the actual target.

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OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Iliah Borg wrote:

The point of my exercise with was to give a fair impression of what one can achieve with dcamprof out of the box, without any heavy tuning, using an available shot of colour target. The shot has a fair amount of flare (contrast reduced by more than 1 stop), and light distribution is not very even. In RawDigger, however, we do not need even light distribution, as we can apply flat field from a shot of a grey card covering the actual target.

Thank you. I understand.
I checked the price of the ColorChecker SG... In my country it is about 300 USD.. Hmmmm...let's see ....

Anyway: By looking at the 140 patches of the ColorChecker SG makes me thinking:
- To get "accurate" results with different lightning, camera & lens combination one should measure the testchart with each combo, right?!? (E.g. Flashbrand A + Softbox B + Lens 85 C + Camera Body D)?
- But as the testchart only has 140 patches only this 140 colors will be 100% "scientific correct" of  the 14-Bit RAW and only for the tested gear combination (lightning gear, lens, camera).
- And the rest of the 14-RAW-Space (e.g. 14^2-140) must be "guessed" somehow by the RAW-Converter (or interpolated to be correct)

This makes me thinking:
- if one "perfect" Cameramodell D1 would create near "perfect" RAW files SOOC which need no (or less) interpolation (e.g. the Camera-Raw could be "copied" directly to the Working Colorspace like ProPhotoRGB) this would not require guessing on the RAW-converter side.

- And if another Cameramodell D2 would distribute the 140 patches in a "weird" way over the 14 Bit raw space this would give the RAW-Converter a very hard time guessing / interpolating anthing beside the 140 patches. Or if a change of lightning would change the distribution of the measure 140 significantly int the 14 Bit RAW-Space

So a RAW-converter friendly RAW (like from hyptothetical Cameramodell D1) would make the interpolation of the RAW-converter much easer.
So the 14^2-140 interpolated values could look more "natural" as the interpolation (in case D1 no interpolation is required)...

What do you think :-)?

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Schnapshot wrote:

digidog wrote:

Schnapshot wrote:

Or simply: Adobe standard Profile stinks and seems to keep me from exploiting my D750 to

Yes, I never cared for that one flavor of canned profiles, at least with my Canon's.

There's another new tool you might want to test (has a 14 day trial):

http://www.basiccolor.de/basiccolor-input-5-en/

I have to say, I didn't see anything much different from the profile I built using X-rite's product, some examples here:

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite1.tif

http://digitaldog.net/files/BasICCvsXrite2.tif

The Botton picture/profile of both tif is much nicer.

I like the bottom one much more. It think the difference is simple visible
Which one is the one made basiccolor? It the Top one hte X-Rite one?

I don't see a significant difference on this end. Not a $500 difference.

X-rite is on top. All are labelled in the Calibration Pane via profile name.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Schnapshot wrote:

Anyway: By looking at the 140 patches of the ColorChecker SG makes me thinking:

And taking a closer look: 14 Patches represent skin in Color Checker SG
Well good look poor RAW-converter by interpolating the skin of the entire human race (all people over all time) with 14 patches
There must be some "magic" involved to guess (e.g. interpolate) all possible skin tones with the "correct" tonality in all nuances by just having reference to 14 correct measured patches (in case of Adobe LR: only for to light sources and most likely only one lens....)...

If the above is correct, a human senible for the rendering of human skin could see this interpolation by the RAW-Converter.... and percieve this skin color as "artifical" (e.g. interpolated)....as it is interpolated

primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,955
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Iliah Borg wrote:

Regarding RawDigger: I got the RawDigger Exposure Edition.

In this case, I would suggest waiting a couple of months before upgrading to Profile Edition, to eliminate some of the manual editing or scripting that is still needed currently. There is a slight format mismatch, dcamprof considers "A01" and "A1" to be different names, and txt2ti3 converts spectral references to XYZ, which is not the best option for dcamprof, so instead of using the result of txt2tis one may want to merge CGATS from RawDigger with spectral reference. We are going to address both inconsistencies inside RawDigger.

For building profiles like the one from you I most likely need to write CGATS formats with RawDigger?!? And then go on with dcamprof?!?

Yes.

Is there an Upgrade Option from the Standard to the other Editions?

Yes.

The point of my exercise with was to give a fair impression of what one can achieve with dcamprof out of the box, without any heavy tuning, using an available shot of colour target. The shot has a fair amount of flare (contrast reduced by more than 1 stop), and light distribution is not very even. In RawDigger, however, we do not need even light distribution, as we can apply flat field from a shot of a grey card covering the actual target.

Any chance you can link me to your 810 and 700 profile?

OP Schnapshot Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

digidog wrote:

I don't see a significant difference on this end. Not a $500 difference.

X-rite is on top. All are labelled in the Calibration Pane via profile name.

Well.... 99% of the humans will not notice nor do they care about this nuances in color anyway... Most of the people will watch the images on their tiny smartphone with overstaturated, contrasty colors

But you are right: even for most of us armchair photographs - talking pictures of over most beloved cat, flower or testchart - the color accuracy is not this important (e.g. 500% important)...

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

By looking at the 140 patches of the ColorChecker SG makes me thinking:
- To get "accurate" results with different lightning, camera & lens combination one should measure the testchart with each combo, right?!? (E.g. Flashbrand A + Softbox B + Lens 85 C + Camera Body D)?

Ummm... The spectral response of the chart is measured only once, and for starters a standard measurement CGATS file that comes with the chart is absolutely OK.

As to multiple target shots under different light, when I compute profiles based on target shots, I do a shot with studio halogen lights for Illuminant A and a shot with same lights but filtered to 6500K colour temperature. This gives Adobe colour engine the necessary pair to interpolate. Additionally, I shoot with fluorescent lights and with my flash, to cover for specific cases.

- But as the testchart only has 140 patches only this 140 colors

Not 140 colours, the border patches neutrals are contained within the inner patches, so 140 - 46.

will be 100% "scientific correct" of the 14-Bit RAW and only for the tested gear combination (lightning gear, lens, camera).

No. Nothing will be scientifically correct, as the transform needs to be smooth. Colorimetrically, however, if the largest deltaE of the profile is less than 6, the profile will be very good for the whole gamut of output. If deltaE is about 4, it is excellent.

- And the rest of the 14-RAW-Space (e.g. 14^2-140) must be "guessed" somehow by the RAW-Converter (or interpolated to be correct)

Not by raw converter per se, but by the colour engine. "Normal" modern DCP profiles contain interpolation tables to cover for the colours that are not present in the target; and the target is designed in such a way as to make this interpolation meaningful - that is why ColorChecker SG contains a lot of skintone hues.

As to usable targets, you can print one yourself, and combine with the Passport ColorChecker you have; to make your own, see http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html#make-testchart

-- hide signature --
Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 25,653
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Any chance you can link me to your 810 and 700 profile?

Sorry, I do not understand - it is quite straightforward to make acceptable profiles from Imaging Resource shots. I'm happy to answer the questions and help along the way, but you need to start.

-- hide signature --
(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,189
Re: Better LR Profiles for D750 and D800 (for download... made with dcamprof)

Schnapshot wrote:

digidog wrote:

I don't see a significant difference on this end. Not a $500 difference.

X-rite is on top. All are labelled in the Calibration Pane via profile name.

But you are right: even for most of us armchair photographs - talking pictures of over most beloved cat, flower or testchart - the color accuracy is not this important (e.g. 500% important)...

The examples I provided have nothing to do with color accuracy. The differences are just subjective as to their 'pleasing colors'. Without reference values (what the colors should be) and some measured results of the color, accuracy can't be defined.

There are some minor attributes of the BasICColor profile I prefer and some minor attributes of the X-rite I prefer. But one product is free! I also used a ColorChecker SG with BasICColor to build profiles and didn't notice anything it brought to the party in terms of the subjective color that the X-rite with the 24 patch profile didn't. But this is only a few sample images tested. Still, $500 seems a high price based on these results.

-- hide signature --

Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

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