What is "bashing" anyway?

I need to get this off my chest:

dpreview is not a fan site. The forums are governed by mutual courtesy, not mutual allegiances. People are free to voice their concerns, frustrations, anxieties, annoyances, and vexations numerous and various as they please.

And I think some people around here would do well to keep that in mind.

If you don't want to hear people make critical statements about Pentax, go to somewhere like Pentaxforums where they play Pentax fan service all day, everyday.

I've been around a while. Since before the *ist D to be exact. One of the formulative experiences observing the forums back in the day was when people started comparing the D80 to the K10D. Pentax fans would insist the K10D was better than the D80 because of (laundry list of features including weather sealing and shake reduction). On the Nikon side of things, people were more concerned about whether they should buy the D80 or the D200. (.....) Anyone who made an objective comparison between the D80 and K10D, however, soon arrived at the conclusions that the AF system on the D80 was miles ahead of the one on the K10D.

This was met by certain vocal members of the Pentax community in one of three ways,

1) insistence that the K10D AF was good enough so who cares?

2) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D was cheaper

3) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D had weather sealing, SR, etc. and the D80 did not

I ended up owning the K10D for quite a few years. I mostly used it in manual focus, so it didn't bother me the AF was pretty much crippled. I would not deny to anyone, though, that the D80 was all around the nicer camera to use. The K10D has a few points in its corner, sure, and was perfectly fine, but so far as proficiency in core abilities (focus, exposure, white balance, responsiveness, ergonomics) went the D80 was generally better to a lesser or greater degree.

Fast forward a decade and there are people on the Pentax forums who are still as blindly defensive of Pentax gear as they ever were. Behavior includes but is not limited to,

1) overtly hostile response to reports of technical issues with Pentax equipment (insisting ad nauseum that test methodology is flawed, demanding more proof, insisting the problem must be the user, etc)

2) belittling people who express an opinion brand X is better than Pentax at function Y

3) demanding people making statements critical of Pentax (Ricoh) to stop posting

This lamentable behavior is, sadly, a feature of Pentax forums more than most (any?) others. It does you, and the forum, no favors.

You should really learn to be a little more thick-skinned. Stop seeing criticism of a camera or company as a personal insult. No one at Nikon forums does this! We all rip into Nikon with gusto at every opportunity, for the D600 oil spots, for the D750 flare issure, D800 focus alignment, the D7000 buffer, the D7100 sensor, for the poor profits, for not making a full frame mirrorless camera ... then Nikon puts out the D500 and we all go crazy and do virtual high fives and fist bumps. But most of the time we are just hanging out giving our thoughts good and bad, listening what other people have on their mind. Nikon is not going to roll over and die just because someone made a forum post explaining why he likes the Canon 80D better than the D7200, and Pentax isn't going anywhere either.

So stop taking it personally. Stop being so dogmatic about insisting everything about Pentax must be great. There are lots of things to like about Pentax cameras, but plenty of things to complain about too.

Richard Murdey wrote:

....

dpreview is not a fan site. The forums are governed by mutual courtesy, not mutual allegiances. People are free to voice their concerns, frustrations, anxieties, annoyances, and vexations numerous and various as they please.

People do indeed have the right to their opinions. They have the right to express them. They don't even need to justify those opinions.

But ... if they do attempt to justify those opinions, and get things wrong or omit important information, then obviously people are likely to respond to those omissions or inaccuracies.

Some people, seeing their justification for their opinions being criticised and/or corrected, appear (falsely) to see this as an attack on their right to hold and express opinions. Then they may become defensive, and/or add extra dodgy justification.

If someone wants to express their opinions, and chooses to justify them, they should either make a cast-iron case, or be prepared to have their justification undermined and perhaps end up being upset.

....

So stop taking it personally. Stop being so dogmatic about insisting everything about Pentax must be great. There are lots of things to like about Pentax cameras, but plenty of things to complain about too.

I see lots of criticisms of Pentax equipment in this forum. (I've just posted some myself, and I doubt if I will be attacked for it). What matters is that people posting complaints should be able to support their complaints.

You complained about Toshiba card speed too slow but the misleading title made me think there was something wrong with K-3.

You complained about K-1 price being too high in Japan, but it's not Ricoh's fault that Japanese people respect the Pentax brand and they are able to charge higher price for it in Japan.  And DPR's own finding shows K-1 can best D810 IQ with pixel shift, so that could very well justify both cameras sitting at same price.

I think if you always focus on the negatives, people will more likely to see you as bashing.

Richard Murdey wrote:

I need to get this off my chest:

dpreview is not a fan site. The forums are governed by mutual courtesy, not mutual allegiances. People are free to voice their concerns, frustrations, anxieties, annoyances, and vexations numerous and various as they please.

And I think some people around here would do well to keep that in mind.

If you don't want to hear people make critical statements about Pentax, go to somewhere like Pentaxforums where they play Pentax fan service all day, everyday.

I've been around a while. Since before the *ist D to be exact. One of the formulative experiences observing the forums back in the day was when people started comparing the D80 to the K10D. Pentax fans would insist the K10D was better than the D80 because of (laundry list of features including weather sealing and shake reduction). On the Nikon side of things, people were more concerned about whether they should buy the D80 or the D200. (.....) Anyone who made an objective comparison between the D80 and K10D, however, soon arrived at the conclusions that the AF system on the D80 was miles ahead of the one on the K10D.

This was met by certain vocal members of the Pentax community in one of three ways,

1) insistence that the K10D AF was good enough so who cares?

2) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D was cheaper

3) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D had weather sealing, SR, etc. and the D80 did not

I ended up owning the K10D for quite a few years. I mostly used it in manual focus, so it didn't bother me the AF was pretty much crippled. I would not deny to anyone, though, that the D80 was all around the nicer camera to use. The K10D has a few points in its corner, sure, and was perfectly fine, but so far as proficiency in core abilities (focus, exposure, white balance, responsiveness, ergonomics) went the D80 was generally better to a lesser or greater degree.

Fast forward a decade and there are people on the Pentax forums who are still as blindly defensive of Pentax gear as they ever were. Behavior includes but is not limited to,

1) overtly hostile response to reports of technical issues with Pentax equipment (insisting ad nauseum that test methodology is flawed, demanding more proof, insisting the problem must be the user, etc)

2) belittling people who express an opinion brand X is better than Pentax at function Y

3) demanding people making statements critical of Pentax (Ricoh) to stop posting

This lamentable behavior is, sadly, a feature of Pentax forums more than most (any?) others. It does you, and the forum, no favors.

You should really learn to be a little more thick-skinned. Stop seeing criticism of a camera or company as a personal insult. No one at Nikon forums does this! We all rip into Nikon with gusto at every opportunity, for the D600 oil spots, for the D750 flare issure, D800 focus alignment, the D7000 buffer, the D7100 sensor, for the poor profits, for not making a full frame mirrorless camera ... then Nikon puts out the D500 and we all go crazy and do virtual high fives and fist bumps. But most of the time we are just hanging out giving our thoughts good and bad, listening what other people have on their mind. Nikon is not going to roll over and die just because someone made a forum post explaining why he likes the Canon 80D better than the D7200, and Pentax isn't going anywhere either.

So stop taking it personally. Stop being so dogmatic about insisting everything about Pentax must be great. There are lots of things to like about Pentax cameras, but plenty of things to complain about too.

Richard,

Not anybody like you who could afford many gears from different brand. Some of us they stick with one brand, and that could be Pentax. And when they have Pentax with them, it is becoming their religion. You know that.

If you could criticize Pentax for the cons they have, you should be able to see what pros they have also. Give the credits when it is due. For example, now Pentax has achieved significant recognition out of K-1. But then, what the first comment you could say: The price of K-1 in Japan is so expensive even Nikon D810 is cheaper. As if who would buy Pentax K-1 if D810 is cheaper ? That is your reasoning, but the reasoning you have is not accurate. You don't see high demand of K-1, not only in Japan, but also the rest of the world.

True that DPR is not fan site, but you should understand one condition that here in pentax SLR talk, is loaded with pentaxfans. You can't just say: "Guys don't be blind, do be a fanboys, looks outside there are better camera than what you have". It is as if when you bump your head into the wall, you blame the wall and you want to destroy it for the sake of your convenient.

Thank you for giving a lecture today. I appreciate it. But you should take the lessons also why people don't welcome you here (very) nicely. I don't have personal grunge with you. It is just 2 cents comment.

Richard Murdey wrote:

I need to get this off my chest:

dpreview is not a fan site. The forums are governed by mutual courtesy, not mutual allegiances. People are free to voice their concerns, frustrations, anxieties, annoyances, and vexations numerous and various as they please.

And I think some people around here would do well to keep that in mind.

If you don't want to hear people make critical statements about Pentax, go to somewhere like Pentaxforums where they play Pentax fan service all day, everyday.

I've been around a while. Since before the *ist D to be exact. One of the formulative experiences observing the forums back in the day was when people started comparing the D80 to the K10D. Pentax fans would insist the K10D was better than the D80 because of (laundry list of features including weather sealing and shake reduction). On the Nikon side of things, people were more concerned about whether they should buy the D80 or the D200. (.....) Anyone who made an objective comparison between the D80 and K10D, however, soon arrived at the conclusions that the AF system on the D80 was miles ahead of the one on the K10D.

This was met by certain vocal members of the Pentax community in one of three ways,

1) insistence that the K10D AF was good enough so who cares?

2) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D was cheaper

3) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D had weather sealing, SR, etc. and the D80 did not

I ended up owning the K10D for quite a few years. I mostly used it in manual focus, so it didn't bother me the AF was pretty much crippled. I would not deny to anyone, though, that the D80 was all around the nicer camera to use. The K10D has a few points in its corner, sure, and was perfectly fine, but so far as proficiency in core abilities (focus, exposure, white balance, responsiveness, ergonomics) went the D80 was generally better to a lesser or greater degree.

Fast forward a decade and there are people on the Pentax forums who are still as blindly defensive of Pentax gear as they ever were. Behavior includes but is not limited to,

1) overtly hostile response to reports of technical issues with Pentax equipment (insisting ad nauseum that test methodology is flawed, demanding more proof, insisting the problem must be the user, etc)

2) belittling people who express an opinion brand X is better than Pentax at function Y

3) demanding people making statements critical of Pentax (Ricoh) to stop posting

This lamentable behavior is, sadly, a feature of Pentax forums more than most (any?) others. It does you, and the forum, no favors.

You should really learn to be a little more thick-skinned. Stop seeing criticism of a camera or company as a personal insult. No one at Nikon forums does this! We all rip into Nikon with gusto at every opportunity, for the D600 oil spots, for the D750 flare issure, D800 focus alignment, the D7000 buffer, the D7100 sensor, for the poor profits, for not making a full frame mirrorless camera ... then Nikon puts out the D500 and we all go crazy and do virtual high fives and fist bumps. But most of the time we are just hanging out giving our thoughts good and bad, listening what other people have on their mind. Nikon is not going to roll over and die just because someone made a forum post explaining why he likes the Canon 80D better than the D7200, and Pentax isn't going anywhere either.

So stop taking it personally. Stop being so dogmatic about insisting everything about Pentax must be great. There are lots of things to like about Pentax cameras, but plenty of things to complain about too.

The golden rule, on this and every other website, is not to exchange brickbats with those who have confused their sense of self with a commercial entity, be it a camera, a washing-machine or an armchair. Replying to them only reinforces their confusion and so, in search of yet more reinforcement, they will promptly reply to you in even more strident terms. Leave them alone, do not reply to rude and aggressive posts, and if the person continues to pester then place them on a block list. You are wasting your words, I'm afraid. For a good article on the subject, see here.

Defensive behavour is at it's height on the subject of AF-C, a few criticisms are tolerated till the general flavour becomes critical, then we see a flood of successful BIF images and accusation of incompetent users.

Test results/reviews are linked by page... with accusations that DPreview don't know how to test AF, when they get on fine with other brands.

Instead of defense, energies would be better spent lobbying Pentax for improvements, because  when improvements do arrive, they are greeted by enthusiastic flag waving which shows conclusively that better AF and the like was what was wanted all along.

Easy:

• Bashing: Deliberately and repeatedly bashing the same brand, product orcompany. If you have a complaint or comment to make, make it once and make sure you have facts to support it.

Constructive, valid criticism is fine. Repeat it a hundred times, push it into unrelated discussions and even valid points would degenerate into bashing.

Not all criticism is valid, though. Some people take it as an "us vs them" thing, we against the manufacturers. So even when we're trying to establish if some criticism is valid, they see it as siding with "them".

And of course, one is not being fair by only criticizing; positive feedback should be offered as well. Again, some thinks that only fanboys could possibly have positive feedback.

You know who you are

Alex

Its very simple.  When you claim to have a test lab, and claim to have an image quality comparison tool, one used by consumers to drive purchasing decisions, then you need to get it right.

Imaging Resources has a terrible user interface, but at least they compare the cameras with the same master lenses.  Using the "relevant prime lens" is a bad practice when it obfuscates the test results.

But IR also got it wrong, IMO, as the D810 images show high levels of sharpening.  I am not buying photoshop, or lightroom.  I am buying a camera body.

BOTH need a lesson in testing discipline.  BOTH did not exercise the basic level of self scrutiny required by the level of responsibility they have placed on themselves.

So yeah, when you review something and get it wrong and have a broken process that sets you up to fail, they deserve the ire they are getting.

What happened is that both saw better results from the $3200 camera than the $1800 camera and said "makes sense" and moved on.   Its more being intellectually lazy.

DAVID MANZE wrote:

Defensive behavour is at it's height on the subject of AF-C, a few criticisms are tolerated till the general flavour becomes critical, then we see a flood of successful BIF images and accusation of incompetent users.

A lot depends on how criticisms are expressed. If someone says "Canon X and/or Nikon Y are better", then since I've never used a Canon or Nikon, I can't comment. Or, if I've been out-gunned by a friend using a Canon or Nikon, I'll say so.

But if someone says "Pentax is useless at Z", and I have successfully done Z, then I post photos to prove that Pentax isn't useless at Z. (I am much interested in what I can do with my own equipment than in what others can do with theirs).

I think there are too many simplistic over-generalisations around. On all sides of the arguments. I have photographic books published around the end of WW2 with photos of birds in flight. And just about every other sort of photography discussed here. No equipment is perfect. Hardly any modern cameras are useless for challenging subjects.

Most Pentax shooters love Pentax, which is very aggravating to some people. There are always a few people on this forum who not only are annoyed about Pentax enthusiasm, but take delight in taunting others. So they hang out here just to bash Pentax and annoy Pentax users.

Regarding current Pentax AF-C, most of the people I see complaining about it are using incorrect settings that cripple the camera's tracking ability.

Never owned a Nikon so cannot comment, but the only DSLR I ever owned was a K10D and going through all my photos, which were taken with any one of the following non DSLRs:

• Misc Sony compact cameras
• Misc phones (Note series are superb in daylight)
• Pentax K10D
• Sony f-717
• Panasonic GH2
• Sony NEX-5R
• Panasonic GX8

The general image quality, colour accuracy and dynamic range from the K10D was/is the best.

Plus I have always found Pentax ergonomics to be superior when comparing against both Nikon and Canon in a store, but not had any long term use.

To your main point, as someone who is a mobile phone geek, if you want to see fanboiism, just see what people write on GSMArena in the forums! DPreview is tame! Android VS iPhone etc. There is blood on the carpets!

We all have our loves at any one time, preferences in handling (small hands/large hands!), white balance (Panasonic too yellow for me!, great usability though), Nikon great low light performance but rubbish physical controls, Sony great shot to shot speed and compact design but THE worst ergonomics, Pentax dynamic range and ergonomics. Still trying to work out what Canon do best as they don't seem very imaginative. (Video from 5D Mk2 is outstanding.)

I like Nikon IQ, but the ergonomics drive me mad, my brother has a D3 and whilst it produces superb images, I want to scream when trying to work out how to use it! The Nikon (image playback) zoom system is so unintuitive! Arrrrhhh!

Richard Murdey wrote:

I need to get this off my chest:

Richard,  I think it would help if you use the acronym IMO (In My Opinion) more often.

dpreview is not a fan site.

For instance IMO would have helped with the above line.

The forums are governed by mutual courtesy, not mutual allegiances.

Actually, it's weakly moderated (A good thing, IMO) and a set of written rules.

People are free to voice their concerns, frustrations, anxieties, annoyances, and vexations numerous and various as they please.

Except for those pesky rules I mentioned.

And I think some people around here would do well to keep that in mind.

If you don't want to hear people make critical statements about Pentax, go to somewhere like Pentaxforums where they play Pentax fan service all day, everyday.

Buncha' loosers, IMO. 

I've been around a while. Since before the *ist D to be exact. One of the formulative experiences observing the forums back in the day was when people started comparing the D80 to the K10D. Pentax fans would insist the K10D was better than the D80 because of (laundry list of features including weather sealing and shake reduction). On the Nikon side of things, people were more concerned about whether they should buy the D80 or the D200. (.....) Anyone who made an objective comparison between the D80 and K10D, however, soon arrived at the conclusions that the AF system on the D80 was miles ahead of the one on the K10D.

We need a new term for the above I think.  How about Histo-bashing?  Def: Bashing a product from history that modern readers might not have any knowledge of. 

This was met by certain vocal members of the Pentax community in one of three ways,

1) insistence that the K10D AF was good enough so who cares?

Who even knows?

2) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D was cheaper

3) rationalization that it didn't matter because the K10D had weather sealing, SR, etc. and the D80 did not

So they made good counter-arguments did they?

* snip *

ad nauseum
*snip*

You should really learn to be a little more thick-skinned.

I mostly root for what I see as the underdog brand.  Unless, of course, you refer to someone else by 'you'.

Stop seeing criticism of a camera or company as a personal insult. No one at Nikon forums does this! We all rip into Nikon with gusto at every opportunity, for the D600 oil spots, for the D750 flare issure, D800 focus alignment, the D7000 buffer, the D7100 sensor, for the poor profits, for not making a full frame mirrorless camera ... then Nikon puts out the D500 and we all go crazy and do virtual high fives and fist bumps.

That forum is a virtual love-in.  And the years I spent posting there were...  No different than any other camera forum I've participated in.  After we got rid of all those haters complaining about the oil-squirter D600, that is.  This is sarcasm, BTW.  However, has any one ever heard of selective memory?

* snip*

So stop taking it personally.

I hope you won't take me poking a little fun personally.

Stop being so dogmatic about insisting everything about Pentax must be great. There are lots of things to like about Pentax cameras, but plenty of things to complain about too.

So much humor so little time.

Cheers.

halievski wrote:

p.s. Currently I use 4 system including Leica, Nikon, Olympus and Pentax, and have them for a long time, so eventually i'm not a fanboy.. IMO (thats for Petroglyph )

AlexH

You are welcome.