Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

Started Mar 28, 2016 | Questions
AshKean Junior Member • Posts: 27
Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

Hi to all, I've been an avid dpr reader for a while but am still a newbie poster... I'm looking to upgrade my current camera quite soon and have had my interest stirred by the D810. From what I've read about it, it seems like an excellent camera but have noted that IQ can be affected by mirror shock! I'm surprised that a camera of this ilk would be affected by such things, so am asking any owners if it really is an issue?

Many thanks for any responses.

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MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,664
Not with my lens :-)
2

but what of your project to update to the Canon 5div

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57428695

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Thierry - posted as regular forum member

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westerner
westerner Senior Member • Posts: 1,010
Re: Not with my lens :-)
1

TOF guy wrote:

but what of your project to update to the Canon 5div

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57428695

You know what I found funnier than you re-posting his Canon comment? The fact that you have 12,627 more posts than him

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K.B.

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earthbound_ca Senior Member • Posts: 2,285
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

I have 2 FX bodies at the moment but not a D810 so I'm not giving a specific answer to this but...

With thousands of users, some will doubtless encounter a problem or problems. In all of these forums, regardless of brand, you usually only hear about the problems. Whether you'll encounter the same problem is debatable. Shooting technique and circumstances dictate the scenario under which 'a problem' may arise. That said, as a D800 hold-out myself, many former D800 users upgraded to the D810 and are very happy. Many D800 users didn't upgrade to the D810 and remain very happy. I think it's safe to say that if you buy a D810, you'll be happy once you understand what the new camera does vs your existing equipment... as long as the D810 is the right tool for the job. Horses for courses.

About your specific question, a forum search should provide more info as will other's replies, I'm sure.

T O Shooter Forum Pro • Posts: 11,665
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
4

I don't believe it.  D810 is the sharpest body I've shot.  I have 750 and D4 ( although the D4 is sharp ) and have had an 800 and 800e.  The,D810 has a better dampened shutter than the 800 and e.  Don't think you need to worry.

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gear1box Senior Member • Posts: 1,536
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
1

Flash --

Vibration is a proportionally bigger issue with finer pixel pitched sensors since the "circles of confusion" must be smaller.  So, yah, this is a queston worth asking.

As any backyard astronomer will tell you, all optical systems have vibration issues at some level and particularly ones with moving mass (i.e., shutters or mirrors).  The only questions are: how can you deal with them, and to what degree are they present.  And our friends in the mirrorless world -- particularly m4/3 -- have had plenty of shutter shock issues with no mirror at all.  Mirrorless shutters have to both close AND open before the image is exposed, creating potentially more vibration than a mirror and shutter open of an SLR.

Compared to the d800, the d810 has two main features that attack both the degree and steps available.  On the former, the d810's shutter/mirror is a lot smoother, quieter and vibration free.  Nikon engineers could characterize the vibration spectra, but all reviews and users will say that it is the best Nikon shutter ever; vastly better than the d4's, although maybe not better than Canon's.  Regarding the steps available, the d810 has electronic first curtain with the mirror up which is, frankly, huge  for tripod work.  i've used it and for all intents and purposes it is vibration free even with long teles (and, obviously, a stable enough tripod).

Handheld is, er, always a crap shoot on vibration; repeatable tests are a problem.  You've got VR and all kinds of vibration sources.  Still, the better shutter helps even there; again, i've shot with it and it is clearly better than my d600 (although some of the improvement may be due to the greater mass).

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gary ray
Semi-professional in early 1970s; just a putzer since then. interests: historical sites, virginia, motorcycle racing. A nikon user more by habit than choice; still, nikon seems to work well for me.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 22,716
Re: It depends what you mean by "issues".
2

A main purpose of a 36 MP body is be be able to magnify an image more than with a fewer MP body, while still obtaining good detail.

The more you magnify an image the more any negative effect of shutter and mirror action vibrations  reduce maximum image detail at some shutter speeds.

Results should be similar enlarging as far as you can safely go at 24 MP equivalent size compared to a 24 MP body.

Each time you increase MP you increase the chance of some image quality loss between about 1/15 and 1/125 from mirror or shutter vibration, and from camera shake at most shutter speeds.

This is why I prefer to work to a 2x focal length shutter speed when hand holding, and to use first curtain electronic opening and shutter release delay when using a tripod, aiming for maximum image detail from 36 MP.

Similar appropriate shooting care is needed with Sony 42 MP and Canon 50 MP bodies.

Obtaining the best results from any photographic equipment is mainly down to the skill of the photographer.

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Leonard Shepherd
You can buy kit. The rest is mainly down to you.
The more you practice, as with a musical instrument, the better you are likely to become.

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PVCdroid
PVCdroid Veteran Member • Posts: 4,398
Re: Not with my lens :-)

TOF guy wrote:

but what of your project to update to the Canon 5div

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57428695

I came over to visit here today and saw a few posts from Nikon users accusing Sony fanboys of trolling this forum. We've got more class than that and I believe your problem is Canon or MFT fanboys. We have the same constant issues with them. Ugh!

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 36,875
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
2

Flashwood wrote:

Hi to all, I've been an avid dpr reader for a while but am still a newbie poster... I'm looking to upgrade my current camera quite soon and have had my interest stirred by the D810. From what I've read about it, it seems like an excellent camera but have noted that IQ can be affected by mirror shock! I'm surprised that a camera of this ilk would be affected by such things, so am asking any owners if it really is an issue?

Many thanks for any responses.

A little better than the D800E: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6731

But the D810 has EFCS. WIth that and mirror lockup, you're about as good as it gets.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6638

Jim

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stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 24,730
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
2

Flashwood wrote:

Hi to all, I've been an avid dpr reader for a while but am still a newbie poster... I'm looking to upgrade my current camera quite soon and have had my interest stirred by the D810. From what I've read about it, it seems like an excellent camera but have noted that IQ can be affected by mirror shock! I'm surprised that a camera of this ilk would be affected by such things, so am asking any owners if it really is an issue?

Many thanks for any responses.

Yes, you can find and identify mirror shock. Is it a problem? No. It's well controlled and will not be an issue. There is probably not a better high resolution camera in this respect right not.

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 36,875
Terminology
2

Flashwood wrote:

Hi to all, I've been an avid dpr reader for a while but am still a newbie poster... I'm looking to upgrade my current camera quite soon and have had my interest stirred by the D810. From what I've read about it, it seems like an excellent camera but have noted that IQ can be affected by mirror shock! I'm surprised that a camera of this ilk would be affected by such things, so am asking any owners if it really is an issue?

The usual terminology is "shutter shock" and "mirror slap". The only SLRs that don't have mirror slap are those that use half-silvered mirrors. This has never been common.

Mirror slap can be completely eliminated by locking the mirror up. The D810 allows this.

Shutter shock can be almost entirely eliminated by using EFCS. The D810 allow this, but only in conjunction with mirror lockup.

Jim

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,144
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
1

It appears that you're considering either the 5DIV or the D810. My advice would be to wait a bit and see what the D810 successor brings to the table.

To answer your question:

  • Yes, the D810 has mirror slap, which can have a tangible effect on IQ. That's why it includes an Mup (mirror up) mode.
  • The D810 also has shutter shock, which has also been shown (by this very site) to detrimentally affect IQ at the pixel level. That's why it includes an EFCS (electronic front curtain shutter) mode.

Hope that helps, and good luck with your decision.

helltormentor Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
2

T O Shooter wrote:

I don't believe it. D810 is the sharpest body I've shot. I have 750 and D4 ( although the D4 is sharp ) and have had an 800 and 800e. The,D810 has a better dampened shutter than the 800 and e. Don't think you need to worry.

It's for a while I'm thinking of upgrading my D610 to a body more substantial and the D810 seemed to be a great candidate but this mad me pause.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr153_0=nikon_d810&attr153_1=nikon_d810&attr153_2=nikon_d810&attr153_3=nikon_d810&attr153_4=nikon_d810&attr153_5=nikon_d810&attr153_6=nikon_d810&attr153_7=nikon_d810&attr151_0=1&attr151_1=1&attr151_2=1&attr151_3=1&attr151_4=1&attr151_5=1&attr151_6=1&attr151_7=1&attr157_0=1&attr157_1=1&attr157_2=1&attr157_3=1&attr157_4=1&attr157_5=1&attr157_6=1&attr157_7=1&attr155_0=off&attr155_1=on&attr155_2=off&attr155_3=on&attr155_4=off&attr155_5=on&attr155_6=off&attr155_7=on&attr156_0=1%2F200&attr156_1=1%2F200&attr156_2=1%2F160&attr156_3=1%2F160&attr156_4=1%2F80&attr156_5=1%2F80&attr156_6=1%2F60&attr156_7=1%2F60&normalization=full&widget=218&x=-0.006975453387489215&y=0.025800254934348295

Apparently, Nikon VR system doesn't know how to compensate for the mirror and shutter movement at certain speeds. I have already found a great deal on the Nikon 70-200mm 2.8 VR II and it's too much for my D610. If I'm going to go with this lens, I need to upgrade the body as well. My question is if this VR problem is limited to the third generation implemented in 70-200 F4, 300mm F4,... or the scope of the problem is bigger than that. Do you also have the Nikon 70-200mm in your arsenal? Have you ever checked your D810 for this specific issue?

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---------------------------
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helltormentor Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

gear1box wrote:

Flash --

Vibration is a proportionally bigger issue with finer pixel pitched sensors since the "circles of confusion" must be smaller. So, yah, this is a queston worth asking.

As any backyard astronomer will tell you, all optical systems have vibration issues at some level and particularly ones with moving mass (i.e., shutters or mirrors). The only questions are: how can you deal with them, and to what degree are they present. And our friends in the mirrorless world -- particularly m4/3 -- have had plenty of shutter shock issues with no mirror at all. Mirrorless shutters have to both close AND open before the image is exposed, creating potentially more vibration than a mirror and shutter open of an SLR.

Compared to the d800, the d810 has two main features that attack both the degree and steps available. On the former, the d810's shutter/mirror is a lot smoother, quieter and vibration free. Nikon engineers could characterize the vibration spectra, but all reviews and users will say that it is the best Nikon shutter ever; vastly better than the d4's, although maybe not better than Canon's. Regarding the steps available, the d810 has electronic first curtain with the mirror up which is, frankly, huge for tripod work. i've used it and for all intents and purposes it is vibration free even with long teles (and, obviously, a stable enough tripod).

Handheld is, er, always a crap shoot on vibration; repeatable tests are a problem. You've got VR and all kinds of vibration sources. Still, the better shutter helps even there; again, i've shot with it and it is clearly better than my d600 (although some of the improvement may be due to the greater mass).

Can you please have a look at the link I shared in response to TO Shooter? Have you ever checked your camera for the VR issue? I guess your 80-400mm could be a good option for investigating this issue.

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gary ray
Semi-professional in early 1970s; just a putzer since then. interests: historical sites, virginia, motorcycle racing. A nikon user more by habit than choice; still, nikon seems to work well for me.

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,144
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
1

That's probably one of the more interesting tests I've seen in some time. It appears you're right--at 1/160 s, the image is noticeably blurred.

It tells us that there's at least one D810 out there that has this issue, so regardless of what owners might claim, there is a possibility--however improbable--that the body you get might also have this issue.

Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 22,716
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

helltormentor wrote:

My question is if this VR problem is limited to the third generation implemented in 70-200 F4, 300mm F4,... or the scope of the problem is bigger than that. Do you also have the Nikon 70-200mm in your arsenal? Have you ever checked your D810 for this specific issue?

Whether it is pure co-incidence or reality is separate to all the comments about the 300 f4 VR at 1/160 stopping instantly after I posted images of a simple test (fine detail on a medicine carton) showing sharper images with VR on than off based on using my own and another lens.

I do not have a problem with VR on my D810 (I find it superb) with what you call "third generation" lenses - provided I take account of Nikons current tripod guidance.

The current Nikon VR guidance needs some user input into the VR on or off decision.

The guidance is that VR can reduce blur when the camera is mounted on a tripod though depending on the tripod (in my case a Gitzo Series 5) and shooting conditions (read electronic first curtain etc not available on all Nikon bodies as well as strong side winds etc) testing may clarify yet sharper results with VR off.

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Leonard Shepherd
You can buy kit. The rest is mainly down to you.
The more you practice, as with a musical instrument, the better you are likely to become.

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helltormentor Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

JimKasson wrote:

Flashwood wrote:

Hi to all, I've been an avid dpr reader for a while but am still a newbie poster... I'm looking to upgrade my current camera quite soon and have had my interest stirred by the D810. From what I've read about it, it seems like an excellent camera but have noted that IQ can be affected by mirror shock! I'm surprised that a camera of this ilk would be affected by such things, so am asking any owners if it really is an issue?

Many thanks for any responses.

A little better than the D800E: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6731

But the D810 has EFCS. WIth that and mirror lockup, you're about as good as it gets.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6638

Jim

I am happy that you also responded to this post. I really enjoy your blog. Can you please have a look at this :

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr153_0=nikon_d810&attr153_1=nikon_d810&attr153_2=nikon_d810&attr153_3=nikon_d810&attr153_4=nikon_d810&attr153_5=nikon_d810&attr153_6=nikon_d810&attr153_7=nikon_d810&attr151_0=1&attr151_1=1&attr151_2=1&attr151_3=1&attr151_4=1&attr151_5=1&attr151_6=1&attr151_7=1&attr157_0=1&attr157_1=1&attr157_2=1&attr157_3=1&attr157_4=1&attr157_5=1&attr157_6=1&attr157_7=1&attr155_0=off&attr155_1=on&attr155_2=off&attr155_3=on&attr155_4=off&attr155_5=on&attr155_6=off&attr155_7=on&attr156_0=1%2F200&attr156_1=1%2F200&attr156_2=1%2F160&attr156_3=1%2F160&attr156_4=1%2F80&attr156_5=1%2F80&attr156_6=1%2F60&attr156_7=1%2F60&normalization=full&widget=218&x=-0.006975453387489215&y=0.025800254934348295

Is there any way to confirm if this issue is limited to the third generation of the Nikon VR implemented in 70-200 F4, 300mm F4,.. ? Photos taken with VR off are acceptably sharp so if any shutter or mirror vibration is present it should be infinitesimal. It seems that the VR is going to compensate for those vibrations but it fails and just exacerbates the blur.

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helltormentor Contributing Member • Posts: 785
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

Lord Brain wrote:

That's probably one of the more interesting tests I've seen in some time. It appears you're right--at 1/160 s, the image is noticeably blurred.

It tells us that there's at least one D810 out there that has this issue, so regardless of what owners might claim, there is a possibility--however improbable--that the body you get might also have this issue.

To me, it's more of the VR system issue rather than the camera. Photos taken with VR off are acceptably sharp. I'd like to know whether all Nikon VR lenses have this issue or it's limited to the third generation.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 22,716
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?

helltormentor wrote:

Lord Brain wrote:

That's probably one of the more interesting tests I've seen in some time. It appears you're right--at 1/160 s, the image is noticeably blurred.

It tells us that there's at least one D810 out there that has this issue, so regardless of what owners might claim, there is a possibility--however improbable--that the body you get might also have this issue.

To me, it's more of the VR system issue rather than the camera. Photos taken with VR off are acceptably sharp.

Or (as I just posted) is the issue down to passing the equipment stability point where VR off has even more improvement than VR on when using a tripod?

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Leonard Shepherd
You can buy kit. The rest is mainly down to you.
The more you practice, as with a musical instrument, the better you are likely to become.

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MattiD80 Contributing Member • Posts: 803
Re: Does the D810 really have mirror shock issues?
2

My D800 has loads of shutter shake. It's tempting to go d810, except it feels like a Nikon rip-off (still more expensive then d800 + it's mostly what d800 should have been). As a non pro, this hurts the pocket. And if the d810 is not a full shutter shake fixer, then it would be lame, so i'm very interested in this issue.

Same for focus issues. D800 can sometimes work great and like a charm, other times it's a focus disaster. There's not really a logic of when it's working good, and when not good. People like TOF guy keep saying d810 is worlds better, but without finding a d810 somewhere to try outside and see for myself, i'm not a believer. I'm also considering Sony a7r2 actually. My money must be very well spend, so i'm keeping my eyes out for more info on this subject.

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