Sigma 30mm f/1.4 for M43!

Astrotripper wrote:

Looks like the final price is lower than the rumoured one. At $340, this is quite an attractive option. A little bigger and heavier that some native MFT lenses, but that should also mean minimal vignetting and corner-to-corner sharpness.

Kudos to Sigma. Looking forward to more.

I am wondering how much it will cost in Europe. The O25/1.8 is currently down to 340€, the PL25/1.4 is at 450€, while the P25/1.7 is (still available?) at 170€. If Sigma will be around 350€ with IQ comparable to Olympus and PL, that would indeed be a very attractive option, at least for new M43 users.

I am assuming the focal length was primary for Sony 1.5 cropped mirrorless.  Mu-43 mount was secondary.

Astrotripper wrote:

Looks like the final price is lower than the rumoured one. At $340, this is quite an attractive option. A little bigger and heavier that some native MFT lenses, but that should also mean minimal vignetting and corner-to-corner sharpness.

Kudos to Sigma. Looking forward to more.

I've observed that the rumormills and people who comment on things put out by rumormills seem convert prices wrong in the rumor 100% of the time, and US prices are always lower than the exchange rates would seem to indicate. They simply convert JPY to Euro or Euro to USD, forgetting that exchange rate is only a tiny part of the story, only telling you how much currency another unit of currency buys. More important to the price attached to an item is the purchasing power of the currency, which is more complicated than just exchange rate and relates to regionally-variable factors relating to what it costs to actually run a business in that region, and also important is the fact that EU nations all have VAT included in the sticker price and US retailers never include sales tax. Just because 1 US dollar exchanges to 112 yen or 1 Euro exchanges to 1.10 USD doesn't mean that €1 buys in France what $1.10 buys in the US or that 1€ buys in Germany what ¥123 does in Japan. And finally, exchange rates only really apply on imports and when not dealing with multinational corporations--when a product is transferred from Sigma Japan to Sigma USA, that doesn't count as an import the same way buying a Metabones Speedbooster from the factory in China is an import. Sigma doesn't have to price their lens to make up for the import costs and exchange rate, they only have price it to sell to make a net profit to the company in the regional market.

Euro conversion: Start from the known JPY price on this lens of ¥48,000 (subtracting Japan's 8% sales tax). Converting that to Euro, that would be €388.49. Add in 19% VAT in Germany, you get €462.30. The listed price of this lens on Sigma's site in Germany is 440€. Close.

USD conversion: ¥48,000 = $428.61. But we know that this lens is priced at $340 in the US. So what's going on? This lens certainly doesn't cost anywhere near $340 to produce, for one. Markups from manufacturing cost in the multiple hundreds of percent are common in consumer electronics--the company has to make up not just manufacturing costs but also every other kind of overhead; logistics and sitting on inventory aren't cheap. Markups are substantial for this reason. Then part of it is the ability to price flexibly--charge what the market will bear and drop the price only when you need to. In the end, 1 dollar in the US has greater purchasing power than 1.10 Euro, due to many factors (lower minimum wages, lower energy costs, lower overhead for businesses, no VAT).

According to The Economist's Big Mac Index tool, which is an attempt to track the purchasing power of different currencies by comparing actual prices of the McDonalds Big Mac in different countries, the USD is overvalued by 23.3% against the Euro. Knowing the value of the lens in Germany at 388.49€ before VAT, we convert that to USD and get $428.59. Subtracting the overvaluation of the USD against the Euro, we get it pretty much spot on at $336.40. At this point just turn it into a nice round number because that's how retailers roll and you get the price on Sigma USA's website of $340.

dmanthree wrote:

enossified wrote:

I see they remembered that manual focusing works better when the focus ring isn't smooth

Now how about some more focal lengths, Sigma?

I'm afraid if they do produce more lenses for m4/3, they'll just be cobbled APS-C focal lengths, not lenses designed specifically for m4/3. That's the bad news. The good news is that we already have a pretty nice selection of lenses for m4/3, so no problem.

Yes, they primarily seem to thing in terms of APSc, where the normal 30mm makes the most sense, and, if good, is sorely needed for Sony A6x00s, but a 1,4/60mm would make a lot of sense for mFT, too.

A 1,4/60mm for say USD/EUR 400-450 with IQ like the old 2,8/60mm would be great for mFT and would also be a nice portrait lens for Sony APSc.

Peter

Najinsky wrote:

Klarno wrote:

Astrotripper wrote:

Looks like the final price is lower than the rumoured one. At $340, this is quite an attractive option. A little bigger and heavier that some native MFT lenses, but that should also mean minimal vignetting and corner-to-corner sharpness.

Kudos to Sigma. Looking forward to more.

I've observed that the rumormills and people who comment on things put out by rumormills seem convert prices wrong in the rumor 100% of the time, and US prices are always lower than the exchange rates would seem to indicate. They simply convert JPY to Euro or Euro to USD, forgetting that exchange rate is only a tiny part of the story, only telling you how much currency another unit of currency buys. More important to the price attached to an item is the purchasing power of the currency, which is more complicated than just exchange rate and relates to regionally-variable factors relating to what it costs to actually run a business in that region, and also important is the fact that EU nations all have VAT included in the sticker price and US retailers never include sales tax. Just because 1 US dollar exchanges to 112 yen or 1 Euro exchanges to 1.10 USD doesn't mean that €1 buys in France what $1.10 buys in the US or that 1€ buys in Germany what ¥123 does in Japan. And finally, exchange rates only really apply on imports and when not dealing with multinational corporations--when a product is transferred from Sigma Japan to Sigma USA, that doesn't count as an import the same way buying a Metabones Speedbooster from the factory in China is an import. Sigma doesn't have to price their lens to make up for the import costs and exchange rate, they only have price it to sell to make a net profit to the company in the regional market.

Euro conversion: Start from the known JPY price on this lens of ¥48,000 (subtracting Japan's 8% sales tax). Converting that to Euro, that would be €388.49. Add in 19% VAT in Germany, you get €462.30. The listed price of this lens on Sigma's site in Germany is 440€. Close.

USD conversion: ¥48,000 = $428.61. But we know that this lens is priced at $340 in the US. So what's going on? This lens certainly doesn't cost anywhere near $340 to produce, for one. Markups from manufacturing cost in the multiple hundreds of percent are common in consumer electronics--the company has to make up not just manufacturing costs but also every other kind of overhead; logistics and sitting on inventory aren't cheap. Markups are substantial for this reason. Then part of it is the ability to price flexibly--charge what the market will bear and drop the price only when you need to. In the end, 1 dollar in the US has greater purchasing power than 1.10 Euro, due to many factors (lower minimum wages, lower energy costs, lower overhead for businesses, no VAT).

According to The Economist's Big Mac Index tool, which is an attempt to track the purchasing power of different currencies by comparing actual prices of the McDonalds Big Mac in different countries, the USD is overvalued by 23.3% against the Euro. Knowing the value of the lens in Germany at 388.49€ before VAT, we convert that to USD and get $428.59. Subtracting the overvaluation of the USD against the Euro, we get it pretty much spot on at $336.40. At this point just turn it into a nice round number because that's how retailers roll and you get the price on Sigma USA's website of $340.

Great, so what your really saying is here in the UK we pay 15% more for cameras (after accounting for VAT) because of our minimum wage policy that determines how much a MacDonalds employee gets paid and therefore how much our burgers cost.

That's depressing, I need a burger.

-Andy

Well, the whole purchasing power thing is a LOT more complicated than any one metric can indicate. The Big Mac Index is just a a very basic metric based off one thing that can tell a person kind of what to expect just because McDonalds is so pervasive throughout the world and the end product is the same in any of their restaurants.

Let me test what I did for the Sigma lens against some other lens to see if it holds up:

Comparing information for the Olympus 300mm f/4.0. In the US this lens is $2500 from many retailers, on Amazon.de it's 2599€ (incl. vat), in Japan it's ¥370,000 (w/out sales tax).

Euro conversion: ¥370,000 = 2992.66€. At this point we need the JPY-Euro Big Mac Index, overvaluing the Euro at 23.5%--subtracting this we get 2289.38€. Adding VAT back in we get 2724.37€. Higher than the price from the retailer by 125 Euro (though I don't know if Amazon.de is the most representative retailer to use for this).

USD conversion: ¥370,000 = $3300.58. Subtract Euro vs USD Big Mac Index and you get it almost spot on again, $2531.54.

Ayway, the fact that the same calculation as before doesn't work every time should highlight the complexity of the situation. You might need a different formula for each manufacturer. But these rumor mills really have got to stop trying to just do exchange rate conversions alone, though, because they're meaningless and misinformative.

I love the Big Mac index.  Normally spot on.

Klarno wrote:

Astrotripper wrote:

Looks like the final price is lower than the rumoured one. At $340, this is quite an attractive option. A little bigger and heavier that some native MFT lenses, but that should also mean minimal vignetting and corner-to-corner sharpness.

Kudos to Sigma. Looking forward to more.

I've observed that the rumormills and people who comment on things put out by rumormills seem convert prices wrong in the rumor 100% of the time, and US prices are always lower than the exchange rates would seem to indicate. They simply convert JPY to Euro or Euro to USD, forgetting that exchange rate is only a tiny part of the story, only telling you how much currency another unit of currency buys. More important to the price attached to an item is the purchasing power of the currency, which is more complicated than just exchange rate and relates to regionally-variable factors relating to what it costs to actually run a business in that region, and also important is the fact that EU nations all have VAT included in the sticker price and US retailers never include sales tax. Just because 1 US dollar exchanges to 112 yen or 1 Euro exchanges to 1.10 USD doesn't mean that €1 buys in France what $1.10 buys in the US or that 1€ buys in Germany what ¥123 does in Japan. And finally, exchange rates only really apply on imports and when not dealing with multinational corporations--when a product is transferred from Sigma Japan to Sigma USA, that doesn't count as an import the same way buying a Metabones Speedbooster from the factory in China is an import. Sigma doesn't have to price their lens to make up for the import costs and exchange rate, they only have price it to sell to make a net profit to the company in the regional market.

Euro conversion: Start from the known JPY price on this lens of ¥48,000 (subtracting Japan's 8% sales tax). Converting that to Euro, that would be €388.49. Add in 19% VAT in Germany, you get €462.30. The listed price of this lens on Sigma's site in Germany is 440€. Close.

USD conversion: ¥48,000 = $428.61. But we know that this lens is priced at $340 in the US. So what's going on? This lens certainly doesn't cost anywhere near $340 to produce, for one. Markups from manufacturing cost in the multiple hundreds of percent are common in consumer electronics--the company has to make up not just manufacturing costs but also every other kind of overhead; logistics and sitting on inventory aren't cheap. Markups are substantial for this reason. Then part of it is the ability to price flexibly--charge what the market will bear and drop the price only when you need to. In the end, 1 dollar in the US has greater purchasing power than 1.10 Euro, due to many factors (lower minimum wages, lower energy costs, lower overhead for businesses, no VAT).

According to The Economist's Big Mac Index tool, which is an attempt to track the purchasing power of different currencies by comparing actual prices of the McDonalds Big Mac in different countries, the USD is overvalued by 23.3% against the Euro. Knowing the value of the lens in Germany at 388.49€ before VAT, we convert that to USD and get $428.59. Subtracting the overvaluation of the USD against the Euro, we get it pretty much spot on at $336.40. At this point just turn it into a nice round number because that's how retailers roll and you get the price on Sigma USA's website of $340.

dmanthree wrote:

I think Sigma's biggest problem with m4/3 is that there aren't a lot of holes, unlike Sony's APS-C e-mount, which really, really lacks decent glass.

This. And the holes that are in m4/3 can't really be filled in by APS-C lenses. A fast UWA prime would be welcomed by many, let's say a 10mm f/1.8. But that would have to be designed specifically for MFT.

Looking at Sony E line-up, they can pretty much come up with any standard focal length and have very little competition. So 14, 16, 18, 24, 60mm (21, 24, 28, 35 and 90mm equivalents). None particularly exciting for MFT users, although I guess a fast 60mm might be interesting for those not willing to pay premium for Oly 75.

Now, if Sigma were to make a 12-25mm f/2 zoom. That would be something. Not gonna happen, though.

I REALLY like my current Sigma 30 F2.8, I enjoy the FOV, it's sharp and the contrast is "punchy". This new lens is going to be hard to resist

Let's trade this Sigma 30mm f1.4 over to the EOS-M format, and we will take the Canon 22mm f2 lens

That lens is small, stellar and a ridiculous value at $139.

dmanthree wrote:

enossified wrote:

I see they remembered that manual focusing works better when the focus ring isn't smooth

Now how about some more focal lengths, Sigma?

I'm afraid if they do produce more lenses for m4/3, they'll just be cobbled APS-C focal lengths, not lenses designed specifically for m4/3. That's the bad news. The good news is that we already have a pretty nice selection of lenses for m4/3, so no problem.

Hopefully, Sigma will release the one focal length that actually equates to a traditional focal length on both systems:

17.5mm f1.4

That gives APS-C a 28mm lens and gives m43's a 35mm lens. Make it happen Sigma!

Astrotripper wrote: ...

Now, if Sigma were to make a 12-25mm f/2 zoom. That would be something. Not gonna happen, though.

I have been thinking this, too since I read about Sigma's 1,8/18-35 and 1,8/50-100 APSc lenses. only 2x zoom, but fast and excellent IQ. And a mFT lens could be much lighter and smaller.

Peter