Life without IBIS on halfway release.

Started Jan 30, 2016 | Discussions
LearningForeverIHope
LearningForeverIHope Senior Member • Posts: 2,216
Life without IBIS on halfway release.
3

Having stabilization when the shutter is half pressed was a no-brainer since it makes aiming at the subject so much easier. Then I read once, somewhere, I think here, don't remember when but not long ago, that it was detrimental to sharpness quite often. I like unconventional thinking by nature; yet it took some time before I tried it and for me it actually works, my photos are a lot sharper on average.

Now there can be many reasons for that. It could be a simple placebo effect. It could be that having the IBIS working prior to the photo the position of the sensor isn't ideal at the time we press the shutter button. It could be because having IBIS for aiming we are unaware of some slight movements; if we were we'd make a better effort at stabilizing ourselves.

Don't know, can only guess. What do you think on the whole ?

Thanks

Jean

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Fri13 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,116
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.
3

Try HDR and you clearly see that first frame off and every other frame is aligned with each other better.
That with IBIS on half-press.

Disable half-press and all images are aligned.

LearningForeverIHope
OP LearningForeverIHope Senior Member • Posts: 2,216
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.
1

Fri13 wrote:

Try HDR and you clearly see that first frame off and every other frame is aligned with each other better.
That with IBIS on half-press.

Disable half-press and all images are aligned.

Yes! What a neat little experiment.

I've learned a lot from you since I read on this forum Fri13 and I take advantage of this occasion to go on record about it and thank you sir.

Jean

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Tom Axford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,506
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.
1

LearningForeverIHope wrote:

Having stabilization when the shutter is half pressed was a no-brainer since it makes aiming at the subject so much easier. Then I read once, somewhere, I think here, don't remember when but not long ago, that it was detrimental to sharpness quite often. I like unconventional thinking by nature; yet it took some time before I tried it and for me it actually works, my photos are a lot sharper on average.

Now there can be many reasons for that. It could be a simple placebo effect. It could be that having the IBIS working prior to the photo the position of the sensor isn't ideal at the time we press the shutter button. It could be because having IBIS for aiming we are unaware of some slight movements; if we were we'd make a better effort at stabilizing ourselves.

Don't know, can only guess. What do you think on the whole ?

I have my E-M10 II set so that IBIS comes on with half-press of the shutter button and that works very well for me. I can see the IBIS steady the picture on half-press (particularly for long focal lengths) and I don't seem to have any problem with the pictures not being sharp. However, I do take some care to press the shutter button very gently.

Just as a speculation, I could imagine that having the IBIS come on at half-press may not work so well if the camera is jerked when the shutter is pressed all the way. That would cause a movement of too great an amplitude to be corrected by the IBIS and the result may be worse than if IBIS did not come on until the shutter was fully pressed.

That's just a guess, but it strikes me as quite possible. I would imagine that if IBIS is set to come on at full-press, the camera is likely to wait until the IBIS has locked on before firing the shutter; while if IBIS is on already it may just go ahead and fire the shutter straight away.

stokey Regular Member • Posts: 475
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.

A slight digression but related -

When I have half way rls with IS set ON, and Lens IS priority set ON and a Panasonic OIS lens mounted I still hear the IBIS shsh noise on half press of the shutter. OIS is supposed to take preference (and indeed does not need the half way rls set to stabilize the view but I don't turn it off every time I swap lenses) so what is going on with the IBIS ? It's not supposed to operate in parallel with OIS. (E-M10)

Bob

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Jim Vincent Senior Member • Posts: 1,705
IBIS on halfway release - Amazing.
1

I'd read this a couple times and not tried it because I'd felt I was already getting very good sharpness and I liked seeing the way the image was so much steadier while I was preparing to take a shot.  Based on this thread, I just did a little test of my own and there was a significant difference in sharpness and detail on a hand held macro.  Guess I'll have to learn to live with IBIS on full release, not during preview.

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Fri13 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,116
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.
4

Tom Axford wrote:

Just as a speculation, I could imagine that having the IBIS come on at half-press may not work so well if the camera is jerked when the shutter is pressed all the way. That would cause a movement of too great an amplitude to be corrected by the IBIS and the result may be worse than if IBIS did not come on until the shutter was fully pressed.

That's just a guess, but it strikes me as quite possible. I would imagine that if IBIS is set to come on at full-press, the camera is likely to wait until the IBIS has locked on before firing the shutter; while if IBIS is on already it may just go ahead and fire the shutter straight away.

The IBIS has specific range it can move the sensor in its gimbal range. And when the limit is reached, it can't anymore logically correct movement to that direction.

But the IBIS has as well limits from center closer to that hard limit, where it can correct better ways a smaller movements than larger movements by nature of the axis movements or rotations.

And the difference is that when we have a half-press IBIS, the IBIS is stabilizing the view, sensor is moving all over its gimbal axis trying to detect what motion is user actions and what are shakes. As the IBIS should react to user action, like user starts to track the target, but not to react to motions that are from handshake etc.

And when the half-press is enabled, IBIS can be near its gimbal limits, and when you take the photo, your shake can actually hit the hard limit or it can be already on the distance where the correction isn't optimum.

Then there is the HDR feature, where for some unknown reason (at least what I have found) is that the first frame is taken where the sensor is located at the moment, but sequential frames after that are taken by reseting sensor to center and then capture the frames.

So lets say that the sensor can move in X and Y axis 10 points to any directions.

When we use half-press, we are working example in +5 – -5 range, and we have 5 points left for any direction to stabilize the image. But if we don't use half-press, we have the range of +10 – -10 points and we have far better change to get stable frame.

And now when we take HDR image and sensor is example in +3, -2 (Y,X), the first frame is taken in that position, then before the second frame is taken, sensor is reset to 0,0 and all other frames in sequence is taken from that position while keeping sensor in same location so the sensor has +10 – -10 range to correct in rest of them. And now the first frame was taken off-axis relative to rest of the HDR sequence frames by +3, -2 points. And that caused slight blur.

LearningForeverIHope
OP LearningForeverIHope Senior Member • Posts: 2,216
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.

Tom Axford wrote:

LearningForeverIHope wrote:

Having stabilization when the shutter is half pressed was a no-brainer since it makes aiming at the subject so much easier. Then I read once, somewhere, I think here, don't remember when but not long ago, that it was detrimental to sharpness quite often. I like unconventional thinking by nature; yet it took some time before I tried it and for me it actually works, my photos are a lot sharper on average.

Now there can be many reasons for that. It could be a simple placebo effect. It could be that having the IBIS working prior to the photo the position of the sensor isn't ideal at the time we press the shutter button. It could be because having IBIS for aiming we are unaware of some slight movements; if we were we'd make a better effort at stabilizing ourselves.

Don't know, can only guess. What do you think on the whole ?

I have my E-M10 II set so that IBIS comes on with half-press of the shutter button and that works very well for me. I can see the IBIS steady the picture on half-press (particularly for long focal lengths) and I don't seem to have any problem with the pictures not being sharp. However, I do take some care to press the shutter button very gently.

If you don't get shake it may be that you are, as you describe, applying an excellent technique that beats it.

I agree, this is of prime importance. I got rid of the "power battery holder" (Olympus and its neologism ) for that reason. With my biggish hands I can squeeze the release button between the index on it and the pinky under the body, rather than press (or push) on it. It is the same principle as used with fire arms and it works.

Just as a speculation, I could imagine that having the IBIS come on at half-press may not work so well if the camera is jerked when the shutter is pressed all the way.

Surely that cannot help, I agree!

That would cause a movement of too great an amplitude to be corrected by the IBIS and the result may be worse than if IBIS did not come on until the shutter was fully pressed.

That is exactly how it seems to be.

That's just a guess, but it strikes me as quite possible.

With me at my exact age all kinds of shake are possible, the worse as well as the best.

I would imagine that if IBIS is set to come on at full-press, the camera is likely to wait until the IBIS has locked on before firing the shutter; while if IBIS is on already it may just go ahead and fire the shutter straight away.

You may very well be right about that.

Thanks for the feedback. Your experience and reflection puts some new light on the question.

Jean

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Skeeterbytes Forum Pro • Posts: 20,022
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.
3

Don't know the M10 but the 5-axis IBIS is a floating sensor that is always suspended when the camera is on, regardless of whether IBIS is active.

Cheers,

Rick

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Thomas Niemann Veteran Member • Posts: 4,451
You nailed it.

On the EM-5 Mk II the setting is under

C:/Release/Half Way Rls With IS

and setting this to OFF yielded a substantial improvement. This setting is global so all your MySets will automatically be updated.

Tom Axford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,506
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.

LearningForeverIHope wrote:

If you don't get shake it may be that you are, as you describe, applying an excellent technique that beats it.

I agree, this is of prime importance. I got rid of the "power battery holder" (Olympus and its neologism ) for that reason. With my biggish hands I can squeeze the release button between the index on it and the pinky under the body, rather than press (or push) on it. It is the same principle as used with fire arms and it works.

Thanks for your comments.

The technique I find works best for me is to support the camera with my left hand and use my right hand to release the shutter. I put my index finger on the button and my thumb underneath the body (directly under the shutter button) and squeeze gently. I had to develop this technique for the GM1 which is tiny and has so many buttons in a small space that it simply isn't possible to grip it in the usual way without accidentally pressing one of the buttons (or activating the touch screen)!

Although the E-M10 II is not as small as the GM1, it is still small enough and light enough to use in the same way. As I have got used to shooting without a viewfinder (I have had several cameras without one), I continue to do so unless the light is so bright that the screen on the back is not visible. Although it has certainly taken some practice, I find I can now hold the camera just as steady at arm's length as I can holding it to my eye. I know that technique is not going to appeal to everyone, however!

My own experience is that if I am rather careless and hurried in taking the shot, then I quite often get blurred shots despite IBIS. If I am careful about holding the camera and taking the shot, then the IBIS produces perfectly sharp images nearly every time, even down to quite low shutter speeds.

LearningForeverIHope
OP LearningForeverIHope Senior Member • Posts: 2,216
The better of two world?

stokey wrote:

A slight digression but related -

When I have half way rls with IS set ON, and Lens IS priority set ON and a Panasonic OIS lens mounted I still hear the IBIS shsh noise on half press of the shutter. OIS is supposed to take preference (and indeed does not need the half way rls set to stabilize the view but I don't turn it off every time I swap lenses) so what is going on with the IBIS ? It's not supposed to operate in parallel with OIS. (E-M10)

Bob

This is very interesting if the explanation is this: the stabilization at half-press is provided by the IBIS but the OIS provides stability for the actual capture. If so it would not matter if the sensor lies at the limit of it IBIS range at release. I have the Pana 14-140 which is always surprisingly sharp compared to other much more expensive lenses. I that might be part of the reason.

Jean

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LearningForeverIHope
OP LearningForeverIHope Senior Member • Posts: 2,216
Re: You nailed it.

Thomas Niemann wrote:

On the EM-5 Mk II the setting is under

C:/Release/Half Way Rls With IS

Now wait a minute: did you peek inside the firmware?

and setting this to OFF yielded a substantial improvement. This setting is global so all your MySets will automatically be updated.

Good to know.

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Thomas Niemann Veteran Member • Posts: 4,451
Re: You nailed it.

LearningForeverIHope wrote:

Thomas Niemann wrote:

On the EM-5 Mk II the setting is under

C:/Release/Half Way Rls With IS

Now wait a minute: did you peek inside the firmware?

and setting this to OFF yielded a substantial improvement. This setting is global so all your MySets will automatically be updated.

Good to know.

Yes. Haven't changed any basic settings in quite a while. Took 3 shots with it on, then 3 with it off. Exposure was 1/4 sec with the 42.5mm lens. With it off every shot was sharper than every shot taken with it on.

Thanks for sharing this interesting find!

Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 37,072
IBIS on halfway release, I never use it.
4

When I first tried my then new E-P5 I just did not like the noise of the IBIS before and after the shot, so disabled half press IBIS.

When I bought the 75-300mm I thought that I might need it on again, but lo, I just learned to handle the camera better and found that I did not need it even at 300mm.

The logic of the situation is as Fri13 explained, simply, IBIS on at half press might already be near its limits and when the exposure starts it has nowhere to go except hit its limit stops.

Ditto with OIS, originally Panasonic Canada even had a page explaining the same issue as related to my LX3 and some early M4/3 bodies, I use a mode where the OIS only kicks in the for the exposure.

Ha! Found a different page from Panasonic (UK & Ireland) where it says the same about OIS http://eng.faq.panasonic.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10621/~/what-is-an-optimal-image-stabiliser-%28ois%29%3F and the last paragraph says it all.....

OIS Mode2 keeps the OIS lens in the centre when framing up the subject. When the shutter button is pressed the OIS calculates the movement and compensates. Because the OIS lens is in the central position it has less distance to move to any of the extremes of the picture and will be better able to compensate for any camera movement. The is the most effective mode for image stabilisation but the OIS is not available to assist with framing up the subject.

I do notice that when Olympus supplies some numbers about how effective their new IBIS+OIS is they also note that half press stabilisation was off. Obviously to make the results better.

Summary: Leave half press stabilisation off and learn to hold the camera properly for best results.

Regards...... Guy

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Tom Axford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,506
Re: IBIS on halfway release, I never use it.

Guy Parsons wrote:

When I first tried my then new E-P5 I just did not like the noise of the IBIS before and after the shot, so disabled half press IBIS.

When I bought the 75-300mm I thought that I might need it on again, but lo, I just learned to handle the camera better and found that I did not need it even at 300mm.

The logic of the situation is as Fri13 explained, simply, IBIS on at half press might already be near its limits and when the exposure starts it has nowhere to go except hit its limit stops.

Ditto with OIS, originally Panasonic Canada even had a page explaining the same issue as related to my LX3 and some early M4/3 bodies, I use a mode where the OIS only kicks in the for the exposure.

Ha! Found a different page from Panasonic (UK & Ireland) where it says the same about OIS http://eng.faq.panasonic.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/10621/~/what-is-an-optimal-image-stabiliser-%28ois%29%3F and the last paragraph says it all.....

OIS Mode2 keeps the OIS lens in the centre when framing up the subject. When the shutter button is pressed the OIS calculates the movement and compensates. Because the OIS lens is in the central position it has less distance to move to any of the extremes of the picture and will be better able to compensate for any camera movement. The is the most effective mode for image stabilisation but the OIS is not available to assist with framing up the subject.

I do notice that when Olympus supplies some numbers about how effective their new IBIS+OIS is they also note that half press stabilisation was off. Obviously to make the results better.

Summary: Leave half press stabilisation off and learn to hold the camera properly for best results.

Thanks, Guy. In the light of your comments I have switched off the half-press IS and will see how I get on. I have previously had it on and the stabilisation seems to work very well, but you have had a great deal more experience of bodies with IBIS than I have.

When it comes to OIS in the lens, I'm not aware of any way on Panasonic cameras to control when the OIS comes on. Where in the menu system can Mode 1 or 2 be selected?

Henry Richardson Forum Pro • Posts: 20,198
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.

I have always had my E-M10II, E-M10, and E-M5 set to the halfway release.  I will try it turned off now.  Thanks for the info!

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Henry Richardson
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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,392
interesting...

I shall try turning off half press.

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Thanks,
Paul

Lichtspiel
Lichtspiel Senior Member • Posts: 2,958
Re: Life without IBIS on halfway release.

Really good thought and post, thanks OP. I am going to try this too!

It would be nice to have someone from Olympus confirm or deny things like this. While the "sensor is not centered, so the capability of the IBIS will be limited" makes some logical sense, I would have assumed that it would be centered/reset just a fraction before the actual shutter release.

Perhaps this is a placebo effect, where you see more jittering and therefore you are reminded to hold the camera without shaking and be more careful when bumping down that shutter.

Either way, if it leads to more keepers, I am all for it!

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Digital Dick Senior Member • Posts: 2,210
Not Seeing a Difference
3

I just ran off several dozen shots with my E-M5 Mark II, 14-150 mm lens at 42 mm f5.1 and around 1/20 sec. I tried single shots, burst of 3-5 shots (diamond low burst mode) with and with out the IS turned on at the half press.

I'm not seeing any differences not even with sequential images in during the bursts.

I'm pretty good with a soft touch on the shutter button. I've been shooting for 55 years and long ago learned not to stab to the shutter button.

Good to know it's not an issue for me to worry about.

Dick

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