EM1 continous AF and tracking

Martin.au wrote:

SkiHound wrote:

I certainly agree that the information on just what the camera is doing when is not transparent. And it would seem to be in everyone's interest to make users aware of how to optimize settings. Of course, some of optimizing settings is user specific. I don't THiNK pdaf is used with m43 lenses in low sequential shot mode. I do find CAF to work quite well in high sequential shot mode.

PDAF is used in high and low speed burst modes.

Low will use CDAF if outside the PDAF array.

Low may use CDAF as a final check/hint.

This would be new to me. As far as I know, full PDAF C-AF in L is only available for the FT lenses while the µFT lenses still use hybrid C-AF.

DonParrot wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

SkiHound wrote:

You should have been using High burst. With m43 lenses I believe the system only uses the PDAF focusing system in H sequential.

I tried both and even contacted Olympus for advice. They are actually very coy about saying when the camera switches over from contrast based to phase detection AF. So coy that they would not give a straight answer just "depends" and I got no answer to "Depends upon what exactly?". I don't wish to slag them off as the EM1 is a nice product but I wish they weren't so obtuse on the AF issue. If they wish more professionals to use the system then they should say straight up how it is implemented. Sony took a lot of grief over the AF in the A7R and quite rightly so it was absolutely appalling, but they have redressed a lot of the issues with the mk ii and the 399 point phase detection system is pretty impressive. It would be nice if Olympus could implement something similar that just works straight out of the box.

Well, as I said there are µFT cameras that C-AF out of the box - the DFD AF equippped Panny cameras. And they C-AF really alright, giving you a lot of keepers. If you want the maximum result, however, you have to learn to adapt the E-M1 to your likings and your shooting to the E-M1. Have you ever read the chapter im the 7D manual on the use and optimisation of the C-AF system? Compared to that, optimising the E-M1 is a walk in the park. And someone like you who has been shooting sports for decades should be aware that new tools need a new approach.
If the E-M1 soesn't suit your kind of shooting - fine.
If you couldn't adjust it to meet your needs - fine.
If you just don't like it - fine.
But claiming that it can't do what it can do - as it has been provem thousands of times by pictures and long bursts of fast moving subjects - is just a bit, well, inappropriate. You as a long-term action shooter should know better.

Oh I see! No cricism of the camera allowed. Blimey its not as if I'd slept with your sister! As I said I tested the thing, got nowhere, contacted Olympus here in Oz and got nowhere. No I've never used the 7d but the zone and mode focusing system on the 5d iii is similar and it was easy to set up thanks to the instructions and it did just what it says on the tin. There was no such help in the manual for the EM1, Oly support couldn't help me because they didn't really know. For me a camera is not a play thing, I earn money with them, if they are not reliable, easy to operate or have good support they don't stay in the tool chest. Simple. If that upsets your fanboy sensibilities then so be it.

Paul Amyes wrote:

DonParrot wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

SkiHound wrote:

You should have been using High burst. With m43 lenses I believe the system only uses the PDAF focusing system in H sequential.

I tried both and even contacted Olympus for advice. They are actually very coy about saying when the camera switches over from contrast based to phase detection AF. So coy that they would not give a straight answer just "depends" and I got no answer to "Depends upon what exactly?". I don't wish to slag them off as the EM1 is a nice product but I wish they weren't so obtuse on the AF issue. If they wish more professionals to use the system then they should say straight up how it is implemented. Sony took a lot of grief over the AF in the A7R and quite rightly so it was absolutely appalling, but they have redressed a lot of the issues with the mk ii and the 399 point phase detection system is pretty impressive. It would be nice if Olympus could implement something similar that just works straight out of the box.

Well, as I said there are µFT cameras that C-AF out of the box - the DFD AF equippped Panny cameras. And they C-AF really alright, giving you a lot of keepers. If you want the maximum result, however, you have to learn to adapt the E-M1 to your likings and your shooting to the E-M1. Have you ever read the chapter im the 7D manual on the use and optimisation of the C-AF system? Compared to that, optimising the E-M1 is a walk in the park. And someone like you who has been shooting sports for decades should be aware that new tools need a new approach.
If the E-M1 soesn't suit your kind of shooting - fine.
If you couldn't adjust it to meet your needs - fine.
If you just don't like it - fine.
But claiming that it can't do what it can do - as it has been provem thousands of times by pictures and long bursts of fast moving subjects - is just a bit, well, inappropriate. You as a long-term action shooter should know better.

Oh I see! No cricism of the camera allowed. Blimey its not as if I'd slept with your sister! As I said I tested the thing, got nowhere, contacted Olympus here in Oz and got nowhere. No I've never used the 7d but the zone and mode focusing system on the 5d iii is similar and it was easy to set up thanks to the instructions and it did just what it says on the tin. There was no such help in the manual for the EM1, Oly support couldn't help me because they didn't really know. For me a camera is not a play thing, I earn money with them, if they are not reliable, easy to operate or have good support they don't stay in the tool chest. Simple. If that upsets your fanboy sensibilities then so be it.

What a poor reply. I have been criticising the cam often enough. For the blackouts in the EVF the Pannies nearly don't have, for the fact the Pannies aquire focus faster and in poorer light conditions, for the far more customisable AF system and so on.
But claiming a camera can't do something it can do - as it was proven countless times - is just a poor effort. And calling other people names because they point out that this camera can do what you claim it can't ist just ridiculous. There are even people shooting swallows in flight, with the E-M1's C-AF And they aren't called Harry Potter. Go figure.

DonParrot wrote:

Martin.au wrote:

SkiHound wrote:

I certainly agree that the information on just what the camera is doing when is not transparent. And it would seem to be in everyone's interest to make users aware of how to optimize settings. Of course, some of optimizing settings is user specific. I don't THiNK pdaf is used with m43 lenses in low sequential shot mode. I do find CAF to work quite well in high sequential shot mode.

PDAF is used in high and low speed burst modes.

Low will use CDAF if outside the PDAF array.

Low may use CDAF as a final check/hint.

This would be new to me. As far as I know, full PDAF C-AF in L is only available for the FT lenses while the µFT lenses still use hybrid C-AF.

Don, you are right about it being composite focus with low setting.

(it seems that many have misunderstood this improvement that came with V3 / 3.1 of the EM-1 firmware

" By reworking the algorithm on phase-detection AF when shooting at continuous AF (C-AF), the previous AF sequential shooting speed of 6.5 fps is raised to a maximum high speed of 9 fps in Version 3.0. This improves AF tracking performance when using C-AF to shoot in Sequential H mode. When set to C-AF, 37-point on-chip phase detection AF is used. This lets users accurately capture moving subjects so they never miss a photo opportunity. "

from http://www.olympus-global.com/en/news/2015a/nr150205em1e.jsp )

for me there is still the weakness that the PDAF focus sensors are linear and not cross shaped so for shooting things like distant birds in flight I find that it gets focus lock quicker and holds focus better if the body is turned to portrait mode.

Having said that - the way I prefer to shoot fast moving action work is still to rely on SAF + MF as that suits me and I get a higher keeper rate (as indeed I did when using my canon 7D + lenses such as the 400 f5.6 L and 70-300 LIS)

Many examples of my action photography can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/75445098@N04/albums

drj3 wrote:

For horizontal targets that have little height, I flip the camera into portrait orientation, and then it locks focus extremely quickly even for very small targets. Having the grip makes this much easier. Some simply tilt the camera so that the target is not horizontal, but I find portrait orientation works more quickly.

-- hide signature --

drj3

I thought that that was going to be the answer.  I haven't tried using the EE-1 in portrait orientation.

Fri13 wrote:

Chris R-UK wrote:

Colin K. Work wrote:

The problem is that as of now, PDAF has neither the coverage or sensitivity of higher end DSLRs, so essentially while there is nothing wrong with PDAF in the right conditions, it's simply not as capable overall.

Do you know whether there is any fundamental reason why on sensor PDAF is always going to be inferior to the sort of PDAF system in a DSLR using a separate mirror assembly and PDAF array? (Maybe that is one for the Science and Technology forum).

Mirrorless cameras runs most / all its features by CPU. So there are bottlenecks and priorities what is done. DSLR still allows to have a PDAF sensor externally from CPU, so a own dedicated unit can do just that one thing and control the focus, while CPU does different things.

That makes sense.  The mirrorless camera clearly has to deal with all the EVF processing as well as everything that a DSLR's processor has to handle.

Fri13 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

DonParrot wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

SkiHound wrote:

You should have been using High burst. With m43 lenses I believe the system only uses the PDAF focusing system in H sequential.

I tried both and even contacted Olympus for advice. They are actually very coy about saying when the camera switches over from contrast based to phase detection AF. So coy that they would not give a straight answer just "depends" and I got no answer to "Depends upon what exactly?". I don't wish to slag them off as the EM1 is a nice product but I wish they weren't so obtuse on the AF issue. If they wish more professionals to use the system then they should say straight up how it is implemented. Sony took a lot of grief over the AF in the A7R and quite rightly so it was absolutely appalling, but they have redressed a lot of the issues with the mk ii and the 399 point phase detection system is pretty impressive. It would be nice if Olympus could implement something similar that just works straight out of the box.

Well, as I said there are µFT cameras that C-AF out of the box - the DFD AF equippped Panny cameras. And they C-AF really alright, giving you a lot of keepers. If you want the maximum result, however, you have to learn to adapt the E-M1 to your likings and your shooting to the E-M1. Have you ever read the chapter im the 7D manual on the use and optimisation of the C-AF system? Compared to that, optimising the E-M1 is a walk in the park. And someone like you who has been shooting sports for decades should be aware that new tools need a new approach.
If the E-M1 soesn't suit your kind of shooting - fine.
If you couldn't adjust it to meet your needs - fine.
If you just don't like it - fine.
But claiming that it can't do what it can do - as it has been provem thousands of times by pictures and long bursts of fast moving subjects - is just a bit, well, inappropriate. You as a long-term action shooter should know better.

Oh I see! No cricism of the camera allowed.

Criticism is always only talking about positive and well done things and using those to tell what can be done differently to improve the weak areas.

Criticism isn't about being negative or bashing etc.

As I said I tested the thing, got nowhere, contacted Olympus here in Oz and got nowhere. No I've never used the 7d but the zone and mode focusing system on the 5d iii is similar and it was easy to set up thanks to the instructions and it did just what it says on the tin. There was no such help in the manual for the EM1, Oly support couldn't help me because they didn't really know.

Sure not, as firmware 3.0 was the one that added the PDAF-only focusing that improved the focusing. Before that firmware you could only use sequential L to get C-AF and you were limited to 6.5fps and camera used so called hybrid mode where PDAF was used to guide focus system the direction where to go, and CDAF was used to focus to end when using m4/3 objectices. Firmware 3.0 changed that by supporting C-AF in sequential H mode, offering 9fps and only PDAF is used in the PDAF when PDAF covered AF points are used (visible on screen when taking images) and otherwise if using AF point outside the AF system uses CDAF in normal mode (but not in hybrid mode).

And like with many corporations, support personnel, sales personnel and even education personnel doesn't know everything or even many things as after all they are just humans.

For me a camera is not a play thing, I earn money with them, if they are not reliable, easy to operate or have good support they don't stay in the tool chest. Simple. If that upsets your fanboy sensibilities then so be it.

Same to me, if I can't make he sum (that you would know, would change your opinion) per year, the gear is useless. And 7D doesn't offer the whole package and the critical situation reliability like E-M1 (especially since fw3.0) it was gone. Yet I gladly let others use what they want to use, as I can only perform easily better when competitor is suffering from using a tool that doesn't provide same capability.

So as You got upset from simply someone pointing that You had wrong settings and likely had wrong firmware, it is just your experience, but when others manage to use E-M1 to perform better than Canon 7D Mk2 (or Mk1) with more challenging situations, it doesn't really matter what do You think as your negative attitude to everything is just that. We can all be negative as much we want and we should be...

Well actually I got through to some one at Olympus this morning who was a bit more knowledgeable and he listened to what I said and suggested that the camera maybe at fault and that I should send it for testing and if not up to snuff replacing. So I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when I get one back.

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

After consulting the collective brains trust on this very subject a few weeks ago I purchased an EM1 for shooting sports. To put it mildly the results were disappointing while the camera quickly acquired focus it quickly lost it with the net result that I was not getting anymore than around 50% of shots in focus.

Not knowing much about your gear will net you the results you're getting. Others here seem to be getting fantastic results shooting sports.
Have you tried playing around with the CAF lock?
How about the AF point? (small, 9, all?)

I can honestly say that if you're only getting 50% keepers, what were you doing wrong? A lot here think that you only need a camera capable at shooting sports to be able to capture consistantly great action shots. Like with any other genre, it's going to take a lot of practice to get images you're happy with, not a week or two, especially with a new camera.

I've been shooting sports for over 30 years and have had them published around the world so it's not like I've never done this before. I'd been using an EM 10 for a couple of months before that and while the EM1 was better it wasn't giving me that much more. I had the camera set up as people here advised. 9 zones selected, CAF, low burst rate etc. I was shooting surfers and what would happen was that the camera was very quick to acquire focus on the surfer, but then it would quickly loose that after a couple of shots and lock onto another point. It was very frustrating, 2 or 3 shots in focus and then the rest out of focus meaning you'd missed the point of peak action. Once it looses focus then it starts to hunt. I've tested it on other sports subjects cycling, running, martial arts and found that anything that moves erratically across the frame repeats this. Subjects that move in a constant linear fashion no problem, subjects heading straight at the camera not good but acceptable. I tried a variety of different lenses, funnily enough the best results were with the plastic 40-150 which makes me wonder whether the lens motors are not able drive the lens elements fast enough on the heavier lenses.

I wanted the EM1 to work, I like m4/3s and have really been impressed with my Olympus kit, this is just one area where things haven't worked out. It is just not the right tool for the job at the moment. That may change down the track with new firmware, or be improved in another model.

It's a simple case of not knowing your gear and what it's capable of. Your issue is YOU can't get successful shots in those situations you state, but others have no issues capturing images in situations you can't. To me and the majority, that is not a camera issue.
You set up the camera as others have advised and is a good place to start, not knowing what setting to change or experiment with is the difference between success and failure. If 9 zone wasn't working for you, did you try single af point? As it lost focus, did you experiment with different CAF lock options? Did you try CAF H?
You say that you've been shooting sports for over 30 years, you should already have goto settings for optimum actions shots, come on we are talking 30 years here. There are things you've posted which to me absolutely makes no sense.
You might have been shooting for 30 years, but you can't call yourself a success when you can't even get the basics right.
And, blaming your shortcomings on the camera is pretty weak.

Would a successful portrait phtographer or wedding phtographer, come online and get advice on what settings would best suit that genre? Come on.

No the camera is faulty and has being returned as per Olympus's suggestion as of this morning.

Like I've said I've been doing this a long time and I know my way around a camera. What's wrong with asking others or reading manuals or are you one of those hairy chested alpha male types who considers such things a character defect? I exhibit internationally, get published internationally, have made a damm good living, written four books, have taught photography in tertiary institutions, and have provided the imagery for very successful human rights campaigns. I don't need you to pronounce whether I'm a success or not I let my client list and achievements do that for me.

Sport is only a small part of what I do, its mainly travel and lifestyle, but here's a smattering of shots taken over the years.

www.paulamyes.com
http://www.redbubble.com/people/amyesphotograph

Paul Amyes wrote:

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

After consulting the collective brains trust on this very subject a few weeks ago I purchased an EM1 for shooting sports. To put it mildly the results were disappointing while the camera quickly acquired focus it quickly lost it with the net result that I was not getting anymore than around 50% of shots in focus.

Not knowing much about your gear will net you the results you're getting. Others here seem to be getting fantastic results shooting sports.
Have you tried playing around with the CAF lock?
How about the AF point? (small, 9, all?)

I can honestly say that if you're only getting 50% keepers, what were you doing wrong? A lot here think that you only need a camera capable at shooting sports to be able to capture consistantly great action shots. Like with any other genre, it's going to take a lot of practice to get images you're happy with, not a week or two, especially with a new camera.

I've been shooting sports for over 30 years and have had them published around the world so it's not like I've never done this before. I'd been using an EM 10 for a couple of months before that and while the EM1 was better it wasn't giving me that much more. I had the camera set up as people here advised. 9 zones selected, CAF, low burst rate etc. I was shooting surfers and what would happen was that the camera was very quick to acquire focus on the surfer, but then it would quickly loose that after a couple of shots and lock onto another point. It was very frustrating, 2 or 3 shots in focus and then the rest out of focus meaning you'd missed the point of peak action. Once it looses focus then it starts to hunt. I've tested it on other sports subjects cycling, running, martial arts and found that anything that moves erratically across the frame repeats this. Subjects that move in a constant linear fashion no problem, subjects heading straight at the camera not good but acceptable. I tried a variety of different lenses, funnily enough the best results were with the plastic 40-150 which makes me wonder whether the lens motors are not able drive the lens elements fast enough on the heavier lenses.

I wanted the EM1 to work, I like m4/3s and have really been impressed with my Olympus kit, this is just one area where things haven't worked out. It is just not the right tool for the job at the moment. That may change down the track with new firmware, or be improved in another model.

It's a simple case of not knowing your gear and what it's capable of. Your issue is YOU can't get successful shots in those situations you state, but others have no issues capturing images in situations you can't. To me and the majority, that is not a camera issue.
You set up the camera as others have advised and is a good place to start, not knowing what setting to change or experiment with is the difference between success and failure. If 9 zone wasn't working for you, did you try single af point? As it lost focus, did you experiment with different CAF lock options? Did you try CAF H?
You say that you've been shooting sports for over 30 years, you should already have goto settings for optimum actions shots, come on we are talking 30 years here. There are things you've posted which to me absolutely makes no sense.
You might have been shooting for 30 years, but you can't call yourself a success when you can't even get the basics right.
And, blaming your shortcomings on the camera is pretty weak.

Would a successful portrait phtographer or wedding phtographer, come online and get advice on what settings would best suit that genre? Come on.

No the camera is faulty and has being returned as per Olympus's suggestion as of this morning.

Like I've said I've been doing this a long time and I know my way around a camera. What's wrong with asking others or reading manuals or are you one of those hairy chested alpha male types who considers such things a character defect? I exhibit internationally, get published internationally, have made a damm good living, written four books, have taught photography in tertiary institutions, and have provided the imagery for very successful human rights campaigns. I don't need you to pronounce whether I'm a success or not I let my client list and achievements do that for me.

Sport is only a small part of what I do, its mainly travel and lifestyle, but here's a smattering of shots taken over the years.

www.paulamyes.com
http://www.redbubble.com/people/amyesphotograph

Yeah well, with so many national and international successes under your belt, it's absolutely impossible that you make a mistake when it comes to dealing with a new technology. Sorry Champ - you must be the Greatest. Oh no, sorry, this title is already held by Muhammad Ali. Could you cope with 'The second-Greatest'?

And interesting how you move from 'could be at fault' to is falty in just a few minutes. Another phone call by Olympus Australia after a remote diagnosis? I'm impressed, Champ!

DonParrot wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

Steve2015 wrote:

Paul Amyes wrote:

After consulting the collective brains trust on this very subject a few weeks ago I purchased an EM1 for shooting sports. To put it mildly the results were disappointing while the camera quickly acquired focus it quickly lost it with the net result that I was not getting anymore than around 50% of shots in focus.

Not knowing much about your gear will net you the results you're getting. Others here seem to be getting fantastic results shooting sports.
Have you tried playing around with the CAF lock?
How about the AF point? (small, 9, all?)

I can honestly say that if you're only getting 50% keepers, what were you doing wrong? A lot here think that you only need a camera capable at shooting sports to be able to capture consistantly great action shots. Like with any other genre, it's going to take a lot of practice to get images you're happy with, not a week or two, especially with a new camera.

I've been shooting sports for over 30 years and have had them published around the world so it's not like I've never done this before. I'd been using an EM 10 for a couple of months before that and while the EM1 was better it wasn't giving me that much more. I had the camera set up as people here advised. 9 zones selected, CAF, low burst rate etc. I was shooting surfers and what would happen was that the camera was very quick to acquire focus on the surfer, but then it would quickly loose that after a couple of shots and lock onto another point. It was very frustrating, 2 or 3 shots in focus and then the rest out of focus meaning you'd missed the point of peak action. Once it looses focus then it starts to hunt. I've tested it on other sports subjects cycling, running, martial arts and found that anything that moves erratically across the frame repeats this. Subjects that move in a constant linear fashion no problem, subjects heading straight at the camera not good but acceptable. I tried a variety of different lenses, funnily enough the best results were with the plastic 40-150 which makes me wonder whether the lens motors are not able drive the lens elements fast enough on the heavier lenses.

I wanted the EM1 to work, I like m4/3s and have really been impressed with my Olympus kit, this is just one area where things haven't worked out. It is just not the right tool for the job at the moment. That may change down the track with new firmware, or be improved in another model.

It's a simple case of not knowing your gear and what it's capable of. Your issue is YOU can't get successful shots in those situations you state, but others have no issues capturing images in situations you can't. To me and the majority, that is not a camera issue.
You set up the camera as others have advised and is a good place to start, not knowing what setting to change or experiment with is the difference between success and failure. If 9 zone wasn't working for you, did you try single af point? As it lost focus, did you experiment with different CAF lock options? Did you try CAF H?
You say that you've been shooting sports for over 30 years, you should already have goto settings for optimum actions shots, come on we are talking 30 years here. There are things you've posted which to me absolutely makes no sense.
You might have been shooting for 30 years, but you can't call yourself a success when you can't even get the basics right.
And, blaming your shortcomings on the camera is pretty weak.

Would a successful portrait phtographer or wedding phtographer, come online and get advice on what settings would best suit that genre? Come on.

No the camera is faulty and has being returned as per Olympus's suggestion as of this morning.

Like I've said I've been doing this a long time and I know my way around a camera. What's wrong with asking others or reading manuals or are you one of those hairy chested alpha male types who considers such things a character defect? I exhibit internationally, get published internationally, have made a damm good living, written four books, have taught photography in tertiary institutions, and have provided the imagery for very successful human rights campaigns. I don't need you to pronounce whether I'm a success or not I let my client list and achievements do that for me.

Sport is only a small part of what I do, its mainly travel and lifestyle, but here's a smattering of shots taken over the years.

www.paulamyes.com
http://www.redbubble.com/people/amyesphotograph

Yeah well, with so many national and international successes under your belt, it's absolutely impossible that you make a mistake when it comes to dealing with a new technology. Sorry Champ - you must be the Greatest. Oh no, sorry, this title is already held by Muhammad Ali. Could you cope with 'The second-Greatest'?

Donald trump is the greatest.  In his own mind that is.  Nice photos by Paul by the way, but each camera is different and one needs to learn how to best use it.  I have the EM-1 and D810.  I like the fact that there is no blackout in the viewfinder of the D810.  The camera is a beast though.

And interesting how you move from 'could be at fault' to is falty in just a few minutes. Another phone call by Olympus Australia after a remote diagnosis? I'm impressed, Champ!

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I wish I was an OLYgarch