Nionyn
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Senior Member
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Posts: 2,028
Re: Take a few minutes and think of it this way
Jason Stoller wrote:
Nionyn wrote:
Jason Stoller wrote:
Ellis here is the rub. Hot shoe strobes also have modeling lights that will never fit what you just described, yet they still have modeling lights as defined by their manufacturers.
See below.
Granted by your definition you would not considering them to be equal to what you are used to in the Studio.
OK, so they're not that good...
We certainly understand stand there is a difference in Studio type Strobes and Hot Shoe type Strobes in terms of power. Yet we can still agree even though they are different they are still both Strobes! Same with Modeling Lights! There may be a difference in Power of Modeling Lights between Strobes, and there is, yet they are still modeling lights. As good example of this is an Alien Bee 400 comes with a weaker strength bulb for Modeling Light than and Einstein does from the same Manufacturer. Each of the lights have Modeling Lights right from the factory but one is shipped with a much brighter light than the other. Still they are both Modeling Lights.
Hot Shoe Strobes still have Modeling lights according to their manufacturer and what the definition of what the purpose of a modeling light is.
Just because the manufacturers decided they'd call this feature "a modelling light" does not mean that it is in reality, or that it is a useful substitute for a real one.
It has some small usefulness but it is not a real or a particularly effective modelling light.
In reality it's just marketing cant designed to sell more hotshoe flashes.
As another example of this: some time ago some lens manufacturers decided that they would market some lenses capable of focusing closely as "macro" lenses.
The fact that these lenses could not produce a 1:1 image on the film or sensor (which would have made them actual Macro lenses) didn't deter them, naturally.
Once again, marketing cant designed purely to sell.
While they might not fit your definition of Brightness or Wattage ( which by the way is a measure of the power available at the bulb). Lumens is the Intensity of the Light when you look at the bulb at the source, and Lux is how bright the measured area is that is actually light up. They still have modeling lights.
If we can agree that the purpose of a Modeling Light is to give the photographer an idea how the light will actually fall on the subject prior to creating the photograph then that will be a big accomplishment.
That's why they're called "modelling" lights. Because they afford one the ability to see how the light models the subject.
The "modelling light" feature available in some hotshoe flashes can be useful for aiming the unit where you want it to light, and that's great - no problem there. But to suggest that they are good for actually seeing how the light from a hotshoe flash in a softbox (for example) will actually model the subject of a portrait (again, for example) really is a bit of a stretch.
I do not know where the idea came from that Modeling lights had to be continuous light came from because for more than 10 years now you could turn a modeling light on or off. A modeling light could be dimmed. Some Strobes did not have Modeling lights at all. They would also track with the setting on the Strobe or Pack head depending what system you had or what setting you had it on or they would work independently. They certainly did not have to be continuous light.
You seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the meaning of the term "continuous" in this context.
Tungsten, Tungsten-Halogen, HMI, CSI, Low and High pressure Sodium, fluorescent, and LED light sources are all "continuous" light sources (though older fluorescents and some others do flicker a bit, it's true).
The fact that you can switch them all off is irrelevant. They are all termed continuous light sources because they all emit light continuously while they are switched on.
Flashes and strobe light sources are not continuous light sources because they do not continuously emit light but, rather, only emit light in brief flashes or in bursts.
A T-H or LED modelling light on a monolight or on a head is a continuous light source.
The fact that you can turn them off (manually or automatically) or dim them is, again, irrelevant.
Years ago in the film days we were talking Poloroids to make sure our lights were set up right before shooting our film. It sure beat wasting film and going through processing to find out. Now we are in the digital age and we get instant feedback.
Sorry, but I don't see the relevance of the above paragraph.
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>> Jason Stoller wrote:
Without going back through the whole post item for item,
That's entirely the responder's prerogative, no worries - though you have missed some salient points in your response. {shrug}
If you don't mind I'll leave my previous post above for the sake of completeness and because I'll be referring to it below.
the purpose of the modeling light on a Hot Shoe Flash is to see where the light and or flash is going to fall on the subject prior to taking the photo.
Yes, but that is not the same as modelling (as I explained above).
The Modeling Light on a Hot Shoe Flash Will do this just fine. It certainly is not marketing hype. So do not knock it until you have tried it.
But I have tried it. What on earth would make you think that I have not?
Take a model with you and ask him or her if they can tell when a Model Light fired from a Hot Shoe Strobe hitting his or her body.
Again, this is totally different from modelling (again, as explained above). All this will tell you is whether or not the light is hitting the subject's eyes, not how it is modelling them.
I cannot help it if you don't understand the relevance of photographers taking Polaroids back in the film days before shooting our film.
Maybe, but, as the person who made the point you are the best person to explain it to me.
I absolutely understand the purpose and usefulness of shooting Polaroids, but I don't understand how shooting Polaroids relates to the current discussion of whether a short burst of intermittent flash light from a hotshoe flash classes as "modelling light" compared to the continuous modelling light from a monolight or pack & head system.
I would be grateful for your explanation.
I would appreciate it, and I might learn something from it.
If you choose to reply to this specific point please feel free to snip text as appropriate.
Studio Strobe Modeling Lights serve the same purpose. They allow the photographer to see how the light will fall on the subject.
Do you mean how the light will model the subject or merely where it will go? There is a significant difference, obviously.
They just work differently because they are not fired as a burst from the Strobe bulb. Yet they serve the same function.
See above.
If they both serve the same function and purpose, then the only real difference we have is that one works better than the other because of the size design and operation. That I do not dispute.
As I (and others) have explained, they do not in fact "serve both the same function and purpose", despite the manufacturers choosing to misname them.
The Canon and other brands of Hot Shoe Flashes that have Modeling Lights still are real Modeling Lights.
Despite being worthless for actual modelling?
OK...
Just because Studio Strobe Modeling Lights are bigger and work Better does not invalidate them.
Of course not. But they are not the same. Clearly.
Thnk of it as a Ferrarii and a Volkswagen
Both are cars, but designed differently.
Oh, now we're really on to something! Unfortunately your analogy is invalid.
Nobody would claim that a VW was not a car, but you have not used terminology appropriate to your analogy.
If you were claiming that both were "sports" cars or that a VW was a "supercar", that might be an equivalent use of the example - and there would be a clear and obvious difference between the two.
Bed time. Good night!