It's time to replace the carry around camera

Really I'm looking to find out which viewfinders work on which PEN models, and which ones are best, but wider choices below...
For years I've used an E-PM1 and VF 2, but the VF 2 has been eaten by a dog and the aged E-PM1 sensor is annoying me.
So, what can I get to shove in my pocket?  If I have a faint hope I might get a picture I also take my 45 f1.8 and 12mm f2.  If I expect nothing I take either the 14 or 20 Panasonic pancake.  I never use kits zooms, I find them unusably slow, I always pack a viewfinder, I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Anything I buy will be cheap off ebay.
I was looking at GX7, but they don't look that pocketable.  Any experience?
I'd like an E-PM2, but all the ones on ebay come with the pointless kit lens, which bumps up the price.
Plenty of E-PL5s, body only.  Small and has the modern sensor.  Good choice, right?  I also have to get a new (used)VF2, which costs nearly as much (blasted dogs).
E-PL6s are very little more.  Apparently that is "fully compatible with the VF4".  Does that means the E-PL5 can't use the VF4, only the VF2?  And does that means the E-PL6 can't use the VF2, only the VF4?  How about the E-PL7, should I see one dirt cheap?
 Any other bright idea from the Panasonic range?  I need a pocketable camera with quick access to aperture and exposure comp, a viewfinder, and plenty of base ISO DR.  Quick access to ISO would be good.  I don't need a mode dial, I never shoot in anything but Aperture Priority, I only shoot RAW for later processing, so all the art filters and other JPG functions are utterly useless to me.  Quick wireless transfer to a phone would be nice (at which point I have to switch RAW back on) but I suspect will bump the price up, and I can do without.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Panasonic GM5 - perfect for a small carry around camera....

Not sure about the dials, but other than that I agree.

I've just bought a Sony RX100 m4, which is surprisingly well matched to my m4/3rds bodies + 12-40mm f2.8 pro in a pocketable form.

If you want a bargain, look for the RX100 m3 which has the same IQ but is just slower and has a lower res built in evf.

Cheers

Brian
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SidSnot wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Panasonic GM5 - perfect for a small carry around camera....

Looks fine as a camera but too new and hence too expensive.  Around £280 as opposed to £150.  It's only for snaps...

Brian Mosley wrote:

I've just bought a Sony RX100 m4, which is surprisingly well matched to my m4/3rds bodies + 12-40mm f2.8 pro in a pocketable form.

If you want a bargain, look for the RX100 m3 which has the same IQ but is just slower and has a lower res built in evf.

Cheers

Brian
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Looks like a nice camera, but I can't stick a Panny 7-14 on it and it is much too spendy!
I should have put that in the original requirements - sometimes I take the 7-14 and a pocket camera if I am going near the sea.

Henry Richardson wrote: E-M10 or E-M10II and trying that in a cargo pocket. I think it will feel too heavy though.

Em10 is really not that much larger than GM5 in reality but it is twice as heavy.

I have both, either of them fit into my very small LowePro belt bag (neither are really truly 'pocketable') but the EM10 is a squeeze and you do feel like you are carrying 2 x GM5...

Top right pocket of a leather biker's waistcoat, called a "vest" in the US I understand.
Phone and VF2 go in the top left pocket, 45 f1.8 in lower left pocket, 12 f2 in lower right pocket.
Any of the OM-Ds is much too big (I have the OM-D E-M5, an an E-M1).
The GM5 is too new. There's a GF6 going cheap, but in typical Panasonic style there is a whopping gotcha - no viewfinder socket. What use is that?
Shutter shock - does that persist if you switch off the IS?

Henry Richardson wrote:

It sort of depends on what size pocket. Do you mean a jacket pocket? Side pocket of some cargo shorts or trousers? For me those are the types of pockets I care about. For some people when they say pocket they mean the back pocket of some tight jeans so they are looking for something more like the size of a Canon S95 or smartphone. I will assume that you are like me and mean a jacket pocket or cargo pocket. I have found that there are several aspects of a camera that are important in that case:

1 - size

2 - shape

3 - weight

At the large end of what might work is an E-M10 or E-M10II without the extra grip. The size and weight with a pancake lens are at the high end of what might work though. The shape with the EVF hump is a negative. Good camera though and might be worth considering. The GX7 is also pretty good and the shape is somewhat better, but the size is a little larger. All of these have IBIS.

There is also the LX100 (24-75mm f1.7-2.8), but it isn't really much smaller than the E-M10/E-M10II with a pancake lens.

People here have said that some of the later, but not latest, PEN E-PL models have serious shutter shock problems so be careful about which you get. I think it may be only the latest E-PL7 that is okay. Not sure about that though so you should investigate.

The GM5 is really small and light. I have held it several times at stores. No IBIS.

I have been trying to find something also. I can't find any good choices right now though. I am sort of thinking about for now just taking the extra grip off my E-M10 or E-M10II and trying that in a cargo pocket. I think it will feel too heavy though.

Your comments on the GX7 are interesting.  It doesn't sound TOO bad then.  If it can be crammed in my top biker's waistcoat pocket then it will serve as a pocket camera AND it's quite a serious device and can come down the beach with me to work with Panny lenses that flare on the E-M1.  I'd decided against the GX7 but now you have me thinking again.  It's about 280, but you get a viewfinder in that!  
The GM5 is 280 odd without VF, and that's too much just for snaps.
To be honest, I'm starting to the think the GX7 is A Bit Of A Bargain.  The only question is, will it physically go in my pocket?
On the direct control / EVF front, on a pocket camera I don't care provided I can set the aperture and exposure comp quickly and it HAS an EVF.  If the camera is doubling for serious work, as the GX7 would, then I get much fussier.

Big Ga wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

SidSnot wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Panasonic GM5 - perfect for a small carry around camera....

Looks fine as a camera but too new and hence too expensive. Around £280 as opposed to £150. It's only for snaps...

That camera was nearly double that price on launch. Its just recently taken the big price drop.

£280 isn't a bad price (I don't think it will drop a HUGE amount more), but I wouldn't buy the body only, you would be foolish to not get it with the stupidly light but optically pretty good 12-32.

Its only about £30-40 more with the lens.

Whether the camera will be too small, too fiddly, not enough direct controls, poor EVF etc, is another matter and up to you.

I am considering one myself.

I have the GX7. Its a lovely little camera, but the build quality is a little too good, so its heavier than a small pocket camera could be, and the eyepiece juts out a little too much to make it slip into a pocket as easily as it might.

Hi,
what LowePro belt bag do you use?
Thanks
Richard

From DPR's review: "If you were planning on stuffing the camera into a small pocket, you probably won't be able to get away with it, as it's on the chunky side. That said, the GX7 feels 'just right' for an enthusiast mirrorless class, and it's a lot smaller than any of its DSLR rivals."
Arrgghhh.  I can see today will be taken up making up a wooden block 122x71x53 and trying to stuff it in a pocket.
This is clearly the perfect camera for what I have in mind - if it fits in my pocket.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Your comments on the GX7 are interesting. It doesn't sound TOO bad then. If it can be crammed in my top biker's waistcoat pocket then it will serve as a pocket camera AND it's quite a serious device and can come down the beach with me to work with Panny lenses that flare on the E-M1. I'd decided against the GX7 but now you have me thinking again. It's about 280, but you get a viewfinder in that!
The GM5 is 280 odd without VF, and that's too much just for snaps.
To be honest, I'm starting to the think the GX7 is A Bit Of A Bargain. The only question is, will it physically go in my pocket?
On the direct control / EVF front, on a pocket camera I don't care provided I can set the aperture and exposure comp quickly and it HAS an EVF. If the camera is doubling for serious work, as the GX7 would, then I get much fussier.

Big Ga wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

SidSnot wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Panasonic GM5 - perfect for a small carry around camera....

Looks fine as a camera but too new and hence too expensive. Around £280 as opposed to £150. It's only for snaps...

That camera was nearly double that price on launch. Its just recently taken the big price drop.

£280 isn't a bad price (I don't think it will drop a HUGE amount more), but I wouldn't buy the body only, you would be foolish to not get it with the stupidly light but optically pretty good 12-32.

Its only about £30-40 more with the lens.

Whether the camera will be too small, too fiddly, not enough direct controls, poor EVF etc, is another matter and up to you.

I am considering one myself.

I have the GX7. Its a lovely little camera, but the build quality is a little too good, so its heavier than a small pocket camera could be, and the eyepiece juts out a little too much to make it slip into a pocket as easily as it might.

Louis_Dobson wrote:

This is clearly the perfect camera for what I have in mind - if it fits in my pocket.

GM5 will do pretty much anything the GX7 will and it's quite a lot smaller and more pocketable, also has no shutter shock...

Cheers!  Can't make my mind up now between GX7 (perfect but possibly too big for pocket) and E-PL5 (supposed shutter shock and trouble with Panny UWA).
Arrrghhh.
I hate it when that happens.

Chembro wrote:

I use the EPL5 and carry a MATIN lcd viewer if the sun is bright. Very cheap but good enough to compose the image if a little bulky. I have not found shutter shake problems but I hate the camera's press down on/off button with its titchy blue light. This is backup for my OMD5 and I can use all my lenses. The Panasonic 14mm 2.5 is very good. I do carry it in a small waist pouch on my bike as it's not really a good pocket carry but it's as small as I can get for adequate IQ, convenience and price.

With price paramount there's no ideal solution for me but the EPL5 does the job and I use it a lot. Make sure you have an appropriate up to date version of Photoshop for the EPL5 RAWs.

Best of luck in your search.

Cheers, Peter N.

Yes, shutter shock does persist if you switch off the IBIS.

It depends on the copy you get and the lens you use on the camera and probably a whole load of other things like weight of the assembly, how well the shutter was installed, whether the moon is in alignment with Jupiter.....

Which means it's fairly random and some people aren't affected, some are, and some don't care/notice even if they are. Hence the numerous and long threads on here.

It also sometimes affects Panasonic cameras as well (see Panasonic G7 review on here)

Olympus introduced the '0 second antishock' setting which cures the problem for most people, most of the time. The one catch is that this can't be used in burst mode on earlier cameras but later Olympus cameras allow you to use it in lower speed bursts.

The Panasonic GM cameras have a fully electronic shutter at certain shutter speeds which means no shutter shock but introduces other problems that all fully electronic shutters currently suffer from

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Your comments on the GX7 are interesting. It doesn't sound TOO bad then. If it can be crammed in my top biker's waistcoat pocket then it will serve as a pocket camera AND it's quite a serious device and can come down the beach with me to work with Panny lenses that flare on the E-M1. I'd decided against the GX7 but now you have me thinking again. It's about 280, but you get a viewfinder in that!
The GM5 is 280 odd without VF, and that's too much just for snaps.

The GM5 has a built in viewfinder, that really is the best option IMHO, nothing will beat it for size against what it can do. No problems with shutter shock either due to the Electronic shutter option.

To be honest, I'm starting to the think the GX7 is A Bit Of A Bargain. The only question is, will it physically go in my pocket?
On the direct control / EVF front, on a pocket camera I don't care provided I can set the aperture and exposure comp quickly and it HAS an EVF. If the camera is doubling for serious work, as the GX7 would, then I get much fussier.

Big Ga wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

SidSnot wrote:

Louis_Dobson wrote:

I loathe working off the back screen for anything except phone type snaps, and I don't like and don't use on camera flash.

Panasonic GM5 - perfect for a small carry around camera....

Looks fine as a camera but too new and hence too expensive. Around £280 as opposed to £150. It's only for snaps...

That camera was nearly double that price on launch. Its just recently taken the big price drop.

£280 isn't a bad price (I don't think it will drop a HUGE amount more), but I wouldn't buy the body only, you would be foolish to not get it with the stupidly light but optically pretty good 12-32.

Its only about £30-40 more with the lens.

Whether the camera will be too small, too fiddly, not enough direct controls, poor EVF etc, is another matter and up to you.

I am considering one myself.

I have the GX7. Its a lovely little camera, but the build quality is a little too good, so its heavier than a small pocket camera could be, and the eyepiece juts out a little too much to make it slip into a pocket as easily as it might.

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Thanks all for the discussion.
I had not seriously considered the GM5 because I didn't realise it has a built in viewfinder.
Perfect camera on paper.  Why does anyone buy anything else?  What have I missed?

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Thanks all for the discussion.
I had not seriously considered the GM5 because I didn't realise it has a built in viewfinder.
Perfect camera on paper. Why does anyone buy anything else? What have I missed?

Probably the main reasons are that it doesn't have IBIS and for some people it's too small and fiddly. I have the GM1 and think it's great with the tiny but excellent pancake zoom, truly pocketable, and its a stabilised lens.