New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Started Oct 14, 2015 | Discussions
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buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Previous iMacs had 100% sRGB coverage, and most "wide-gamut" monitors have close to 100% Adobe RGB coverage.

With its latest iMac refresh, Apple has aimed for 100% DCI-P3 coverage. From what I've read, DCI P3 overlaps with 93.6% of Adobe RGB, whereas Adobe RGB overlaps with 87% of DCI-P3.

Since Adobe RGB is what some pro-printing shops often recommend, does anybody know what's special about DCI-P3 and why Apple might have chosen it?

Drezzle
Drezzle Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

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OP buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

ThirstyDursty Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

P3 is a digital theater and projection standard. Established in 2007.

My understanding is that the volume is very similar to A98 with shifted red and green primary. Why didn't they adopt an existing standard?

Question is: Despite A98 being the defacto standard for printing to date...is this a better gamut for photo editing and printing?

I'd be interested in seeing a plot between P3 and the gamut of the Epson P800 on a high gamut paper like exhibition fiber.

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ZinMe Contributing Member • Posts: 771
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage
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graybalanced Veteran Member • Posts: 5,565
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

I just said in another thread, and yes this is a semi-serious cynical theory, that maybe it was because Apple still makes Final Cut but stopped making Aperture. Therefore they leaned more to the pro video standard than to a print/photo standard like Adobe RGB.

ThirstyDursty Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage
1

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/another-new-color-space.html

Looks like you get to see some yellows and magentas that current printers can print but are outside A98 (many top printers exceed A98 slightly in the CMY dimensions of the color wheel and fall short RGB, nature of the technologies and color models)...but at an expensive of greens and cyans.

For me this probably is better...be interesting to plot a bunch of my photos, my printer against A98 and P3 and see which space would maximize my ability to see what I'm editing.

I'm leaning towards P3 just by looking at the plots in that article and plots I've seen of Epson printers and digidogs videos.

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OP buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

ThirstyDursty wrote:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/another-new-color-space.html

Looks like you get to see some yellows and magentas that current printers can print but are outside A98 (many top printers exceed A98 slightly in the CMY dimensions of the color wheel and fall short RGB, nature of the technologies and color models)...but at an expensive of greens and cyans.

For me this probably is better...be interesting to plot a bunch of my photos, my printer against A98 and P3 and see which space would maximize my ability to see what I'm editing.

I'm leaning towards P3 just by looking at the plots in that article and plots I've seen of Epson printers and digidogs videos.

-- hide signature --

If the photo didn't turn out...push the sliders to 100 and call it art!

http://www.adurst.photo
http://www.500px.com/adamdurst

Very interesting info, thirstydursty, zinme, drizzle, and graybalanced.

So, for those of you who have sRGB iMacs, do you use an Adobe RGB working space or ProPhoto? Which one is better to use?

lnikj Regular Member • Posts: 190
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

buybuybuy wrote:

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

I don't think they will though. As Drezzle notes, the 5k display is intended for editing, to give a 4k video space for controls around the outside of it. A 4k cinema display is for viewing - a 4k video would have to be resized for full screen viewing on a 5k monitor.

Frustratingly, the new iMac doesn't have target display mode, so it cannot be bought as a (future) monitor.

As has been said elsewhere in the thread, video producers are being served better than photographers here, but, despite potential financial reasons for this, 4k is an easier standard to target for interpolation free viewing - if camera sensors were all the same size then it might be another matter.

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ThirstyDursty Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

buybuybuy wrote:

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

I don't think they will though. As Drezzle notes, the 5k display is intended for editing, to give a 4k video space for controls around the outside of it. A 4k cinema display is for viewing - a 4k video would have to be resized for full screen viewing on a 5k monitor.

Frustratingly, the new iMac doesn't have target display mode, so it cannot be bought as a (future) monitor.

As has been said elsewhere in the thread, video producers are being served better than photographers here, but, despite potential financial reasons for this, 4k is an easier standard to target for interpolation free viewing - if camera sensors were all the same size then it might be another matter.

-- hide signature --

I don't think your statement about video people being served better is nessecarly true. On what basis do you make that claim?

P3 may in fact be a better space the A98 for photographers that print. And all fully encompass sRGB, so web publishing isn't an issue.

P3 is a newer standard then A98 (2007), I assume much thought was put into it and might be the future standard of display for video and therefore eventually maybe v2 Internet (superseding sRGB)...all speculation, but A98 is just a defacto standard, and interns of "wide gamut" there is not standard...they are all different and just reference % coverage of A98...not that the precisely mirror the space.
--
If the photo didn't turn out...push the sliders to 100 and call it art!

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Tom_N Forum Pro • Posts: 12,406
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage
1

buybuybuy wrote:

Previous iMacs had 100% sRGB coverage, and most "wide-gamut" monitors have close to 100% Adobe RGB coverage.

With its latest iMac refresh, Apple has aimed for 100% DCI-P3 coverage. From what I've read, DCI P3 overlaps with 93.6% of Adobe RGB, whereas Adobe RGB overlaps with 87% of DCI-P3.

Since Adobe RGB is what some pro-printing shops often recommend, does anybody know what's special about DCI-P3 and why Apple might have chosen it?

DCI P3 is one of two expanded color gamuts (the other is Rec. 2020) vying to replace Rec. 709 (the color gamut associated with HDTVs).  Apparently, Rec. 2020 is the best choice (in terms of providing the widest color range), but DCI P3 matches the digital projection systems in theaters.  That makes it attractive to Hollywood, since the same digital master could (more or less) target both commercial theater projection systems and UHDTVs.

CNET - Ultra HD 4K TV color, part II: The (near) future

I'm guessing that it might be easier and cheaper to buy DCI P3 screens than to buy Adobe RGB ones.  The major LCD panel manufacturers are all going to want a piece of the UHDTV market – therefore, they'd be doing work to support DCI P3 whether they sold panels to Apple, or not.

Another thing to consider is that if Hollywood starts using DCI P3 for home video, a Retina iMac whose screen supports DCI P3 is going to make a nice desktop playback device for movies that people buy from the iTunes Store.  It's not JUST video creators who might benefit from having wide gamut playback on the desktop.

lnikj Regular Member • Posts: 190
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

ThirstyDursty wrote:

buybuybuy wrote:

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

I don't think they will though. As Drezzle notes, the 5k display is intended for editing, to give a 4k video space for controls around the outside of it. A 4k cinema display is for viewing - a 4k video would have to be resized for full screen viewing on a 5k monitor.

Frustratingly, the new iMac doesn't have target display mode, so it cannot be bought as a (future) monitor.

As has been said elsewhere in the thread, video producers are being served better than photographers here, but, despite potential financial reasons for this, 4k is an easier standard to target for interpolation free viewing - if camera sensors were all the same size then it might be another matter.

-- hide signature --

I don't think your statement about video people being served better is nessecarly true. On what basis do you make that claim?

P3 may in fact be a better space the A98 for photographers that print. And all fully encompass sRGB, so web publishing isn't an issue.

P3 is a newer standard then A98 (2007), I assume much thought was put into it and might be the future standard of display for video and therefore eventually maybe v2 Internet (superseding sRGB)...all speculation, but A98 is just a defacto standard, and interns of "wide gamut" there is not standard...they are all different and just reference % coverage of A98...not that the precisely mirror the space.
--
If the photo didn't turn out...push the sliders to 100 and call it art!

http://www.adurst.photo
http://www.500px.com/adamdurst

I guess that that is an optimistic way of looking at it. Maybe you are right and it will turn out to be better for some uses. I think it will be while (if ever) before you see it as an in camera jpeg space.

I know I should wait for Thunderbolt 3 but I've been waiting over a year and a half for the right mac to come along to replace my 2011 mbp, and this one is ticking most of the boxes ... so I may be able to test out how well it works for proofing prints quite soon.

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ThirstyDursty Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

ThirstyDursty wrote:

buybuybuy wrote:

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

I don't think they will though. As Drezzle notes, the 5k display is intended for editing, to give a 4k video space for controls around the outside of it. A 4k cinema display is for viewing - a 4k video would have to be resized for full screen viewing on a 5k monitor.

Frustratingly, the new iMac doesn't have target display mode, so it cannot be bought as a (future) monitor.

As has been said elsewhere in the thread, video producers are being served better than photographers here, but, despite potential financial reasons for this, 4k is an easier standard to target for interpolation free viewing - if camera sensors were all the same size then it might be another matter.

-- hide signature --

I don't think your statement about video people being served better is nessecarly true. On what basis do you make that claim?

P3 may in fact be a better space the A98 for photographers that print. And all fully encompass sRGB, so web publishing isn't an issue.

P3 is a newer standard then A98 (2007), I assume much thought was put into it and might be the future standard of display for video and therefore eventually maybe v2 Internet (superseding sRGB)...all speculation, but A98 is just a defacto standard, and interns of "wide gamut" there is not standard...they are all different and just reference % coverage of A98...not that the precisely mirror the space.
--
If the photo didn't turn out...push the sliders to 100 and call it art!

http://www.adurst.photo
http://www.500px.com/adamdurst

I guess that that is an optimistic way of looking at it. Maybe you are right and it will turn out to be better for some uses. I think it will be while (if ever) before you see it as an in camera jpeg space.

I know I should wait for Thunderbolt 3 but I've been waiting over a year and a half for the right mac to come along to replace my 2011 mbp, and this one is ticking most of the boxes ... so I may be able to test out how well it works for proofing prints quite soon.

-- hide signature --

I don't shoot in camera JPEG. And I print myself using custom profiles

But yes...the cards are not in yet...and by the time they are...a tick and tock of tech will happen.
--
If the photo didn't turn out...push the sliders to 100 and call it art!

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http://www.500px.com/adamdurst

 ThirstyDursty's gear list:ThirstyDursty's gear list
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buybuybuy
OP buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

lnikj wrote:

buybuybuy wrote:

Drezzle wrote:

My guess is because it's a video editing standard and many indie producers/editors are using these 5k iMacs to cut 4k footage.

Personally for me the iMac line just became a real option again for the future because I didn't want to buy a second, $1k wide gamut display to edit photos on along with the sRGB iMac.

Like you, I think it's great they widened the gamut.

Unfortunately, I just bought a 4k Benq sRGB monitor and now I have a strong case of buyer's remorse! I keep thinking about all the shades of red and green I might be missing.

If they release a stanalone 5K cinema display with this wide gamut, I would pick it up instantly.

I don't think they will though. As Drezzle notes, the 5k display is intended for editing, to give a 4k video space for controls around the outside of it. A 4k cinema display is for viewing - a 4k video would have to be resized for full screen viewing on a 5k monitor.

Frustratingly, the new iMac doesn't have target display mode, so it cannot be bought as a (future) monitor.

As has been said elsewhere in the thread, video producers are being served better than photographers here, but, despite potential financial reasons for this, 4k is an easier standard to target for interpolation free viewing - if camera sensors were all the same size then it might be another matter.

-- hide signature --

Thanks for the useful info (and subsequent dialog with thirstydursty). It will be interesting to see when Apple incorporates thunderbolt 3 into a display.

buybuybuy
OP buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Tom_N wrote:

buybuybuy wrote:

Previous iMacs had 100% sRGB coverage, and most "wide-gamut" monitors have close to 100% Adobe RGB coverage.

With its latest iMac refresh, Apple has aimed for 100% DCI-P3 coverage. From what I've read, DCI P3 overlaps with 93.6% of Adobe RGB, whereas Adobe RGB overlaps with 87% of DCI-P3.

Since Adobe RGB is what some pro-printing shops often recommend, does anybody know what's special about DCI-P3 and why Apple might have chosen it?

DCI P3 is one of two expanded color gamuts (the other is Rec. 2020) vying to replace Rec. 709 (the color gamut associated with HDTVs). Apparently, Rec. 2020 is the best choice (in terms of providing the widest color range), but DCI P3 matches the digital projection systems in theaters. That makes it attractive to Hollywood, since the same digital master could (more or less) target both commercial theater projection systems and UHDTVs.

CNET - Ultra HD 4K TV color, part II: The (near) future

I'm guessing that it might be easier and cheaper to buy DCI P3 screens than to buy Adobe RGB ones. The major LCD panel manufacturers are all going to want a piece of the UHDTV market – therefore, they'd be doing work to support DCI P3 whether they sold panels to Apple, or not.

Another thing to consider is that if Hollywood starts using DCI P3 for home video, a Retina iMac whose screen supports DCI P3 is going to make a nice desktop playback device for movies that people buy from the iTunes Store. It's not JUST video creators who might benefit from having wide gamut playback on the desktop.

Thanks for the link, Tom.

I agree--it would be a very useful playback device. All these new developments, including HDR, have me both excited and a bit flustered!

graybalanced Veteran Member • Posts: 5,565
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Tom_N wrote:

DCI P3 is one of two expanded color gamuts (the other is Rec. 2020) vying to replace Rec. 709 (the color gamut associated with HDTVs). Apparently, Rec. 2020 is the best choice...

I'm guessing that it might be easier and cheaper to buy DCI P3 screens than to buy Adobe RGB ones.

The Rec. 2020 vs P3 answer seems more clear-cut that that. There are no shipping screens I know of, or at least no affordable ones, that can cover Rec. 2020. P3 is much closer to AdobeRGB than to Rec.2020, so anyone can make a P3 monitor right now without bringing in whatever exotic expensive tech, like Quantum Dots, that will be needed to reproduce Rec. 2020 in an iMac someday.

Looking at the graphs, I don't see how P3 screens would be much easier or cheaper than AdobeRGB since they are so similar in gamut, and also both similarly larger than sRGB screen gamut. There isn't enough difference between P3 & ARGB to explain why Apple chose one over the other. They could have just gone with AdobeRGB since those screens are so widely available these days. Yet I don't see P3 screens being advertised by anyone outside the video industry, except now Apple.

I am not a video expert, but it looks to me like Rec. 2020 fills a need like ProPhoto RGB does for stills. Like ProPhoto RGB, displaying Rec. 2020 is currently not displayable on available monitors, but it's important for preserving color headroom and future-proofing.

ThirstyDursty Regular Member • Posts: 279
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

Tom_N wrote:

DCI P3 is one of two expanded color gamuts (the other is Rec. 2020) vying to replace Rec. 709 (the color gamut associated with HDTVs). Apparently, Rec. 2020 is the best choice...

I'm guessing that it might be easier and cheaper to buy DCI P3 screens than to buy Adobe RGB ones.

The Rec. 2020 vs P3 answer seems more clear-cut that that. There are no shipping screens I know of, or at least no affordable ones, that can cover Rec. 2020. P3 is much closer to AdobeRGB than to Rec.2020, so anyone can make a P3 monitor right now without bringing in whatever exotic expensive tech, like Quantum Dots, that will be needed to reproduce Rec. 2020 in an iMac someday.

Looking at the graphs, I don't see how P3 screens would be much easier or cheaper than AdobeRGB since they are so similar in gamut, and also both similarly larger than sRGB screen gamut. There isn't enough difference between P3 & ARGB to explain why Apple chose one over the other. They could have just gone with AdobeRGB since those screens are so widely available these days. Yet I don't see P3 screens being advertised by anyone outside the video industry, except now Apple.

I am not a video expert, but it looks to me like Rec. 2020 fills a need like ProPhoto RGB does for stills. Like ProPhoto RGB, displaying Rec. 2020 is currently not displayable on available monitors, but it's important for preserving color headroom and future-proofing.

Don't forget that these panels go into other devices. Not just computer screens.

My guess is producers are ramping up for tv market and Apple had a choice...choose a standard that is based in publishing and offset printing and just a defacto standard for photography (was there, so was adopted) vs what is the standard for projectors/digital cinema, and likely some tvs. Making it ideal for content creators, especially video...but likely photographers are no worse off and a coin toss to being negilably better or worse then A98.
--
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Matsu Senior Member • Posts: 2,022
GB-r LED same as used in aRGB panels

It seems that probably the iMac uses the same aRGB backlight as used in aRGB wide gamut panels.  The display is calibrated to DCI-P3, a colour space of roughly the same size as aRGB, but biased more towards the yellow-red than the blue-greens (of aRGB) with greater than 90% of the colour spaces overlapping, and both entirely enveloping sRGB.

The colour spaces themselves are a function of where they set the primaries, but the gamut possible with the backlight might make it possible to achieve an aRGB calibration on these new macs - though I guess we'll have to wait to see what 3rd party calibration tools can achieve.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about this, but it seems possible.

However, with much greater extension in the reds, oranges and yellows, and a design goal of properly displaying the hues of film stocks, DCI-P3 might be a good target calibration particularly for working with portraits?

Can't wait to see some reviews from colour critical professionals to get their thoughts on this...

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OP buybuybuy Senior Member • Posts: 5,388
Re: GB-r LED same as used in aRGB panels

Matsu wrote:

It seems that probably the iMac uses the same aRGB backlight as used in aRGB wide gamut panels. The display is calibrated to DCI-P3, a colour space of roughly the same size as aRGB, but biased more towards the yellow-red than the blue-greens (of aRGB) with greater than 90% of the colour spaces overlapping, and both entirely enveloping sRGB.

The colour spaces themselves are a function of where they set the primaries, but the gamut possible with the backlight might make it possible to achieve an aRGB calibration on these new macs - though I guess we'll have to wait to see what 3rd party calibration tools can achieve. I'm not knowledgeable enough about this, but it seems possible.

However, with much greater extension in the reds, oranges and yellows, and a design goal of properly displaying the hues of film stocks, DCI-P3 might be a good target calibration particularly for working with portraits?

Can't wait to see some reviews from colour critical professionals to get their thoughts on this...

Good point on the overlap. One LG monitor I've seen (31MU97) has 99.5% aRGB and 97% DCI-P3 coverage.

David Horn New Member • Posts: 1
Re: New iMacs: 100% DCI-P3 color space coverage

I shoot mainly still images on Canon and Sony cameras. Both have a choice of AdobeRGB and sRGB color spaces. I shoot Adobe RGB and post-process my images using Photoshop CS6 on a calibrated monitor that supports the Adobe RGB color space. Photoshop CS6 has support for many color spaces, but not DCI-P3.

When I convert an image to sRGB (to post on the web or participate in a contest), if the image contains highly saturated colors (and not all do), I will see a very noticeable loss of saturation.

I will not be buying any monitor that does not cover the AdobeRGB color space.

I am also looking for a large 4K TV, which I plan to use as a photo display. I am waiting for the technology to mature a bit more, but you can bet that AdobeRGB coverage is one of my requirements.

I would like to hear from other readers who have good 4KTV recommendations.

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