New Zeiss Milvus lenses

Started Sep 10, 2015 | Discussions
Chris Joy Contributing Member • Posts: 615
Re: Canon and Nikon MF though

verybiglebowski wrote:

///M wrote:

p e t a p i x e l .com/2015/09/10/zeiss-unveils-a-new-milvus-line-of-lenses-for-canon-and-nikon-dslrs/

the 21 /2.8 Distagon may be worth adapting though, for landscapes, hopefully the mustache distortion is corrected now

From my POV, announcing new lenses to around 40 journalists from all around the world and asking them to keep silent is silly thing to do. Maybe, that was on intention, but I didn't say it...

Batis! Batis! Batis!

I really have only one question, will the Batis back orders be slowed down by rolling out the new lenses given how long it's taken to fill Loxia back orders. Seeing this, I wonder if I'll see my 25mm before 2016.

Thanks for all your tests, your site has been very informative and helped me with a couple lens purchases.

 Chris Joy's gear list:Chris Joy's gear list
Sony a5100 Sony a7R II Sony a6300 Sony E 10-18mm F4 OSS Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +4 more
verybiglebowski
OP verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 4,356
Re: Canon and Nikon MF though

Chris Joy wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

///M wrote:

p e t a p i x e l .com/2015/09/10/zeiss-unveils-a-new-milvus-line-of-lenses-for-canon-and-nikon-dslrs/

the 21 /2.8 Distagon may be worth adapting though, for landscapes, hopefully the mustache distortion is corrected now

From my POV, announcing new lenses to around 40 journalists from all around the world and asking them to keep silent is silly thing to do. Maybe, that was on intention, but I didn't say it...

Batis! Batis! Batis!

I really have only one question, will the Batis back orders be slowed down by rolling out the new lenses given how long it's taken to fill Loxia back orders. Seeing this, I wonder if I'll see my 25mm before 2016.

Hi Chris,

they certainly have a problem with Batis supply, simply because they underestimated market interest and production capacity. I asked when should we get Batis lenses for testing, which were promissed us three months ago and product manager himself told me that he has no idea, but situation should improve soon. I hope that you will get your lens shortly.

Thanks for all your tests, your site has been very informative and helped me with a couple lens purchases.

Thanks Chris.

Regards,

Viktor

-- hide signature --
 verybiglebowski's gear list:verybiglebowski's gear list
Sony a7R Sony a7R II Sony a7R III Sony a7R IV Zeiss Otus 55mm F1.4 +3 more
vett93
vett93 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,977
Re: Canon and Nikon MF though

verybiglebowski wrote:

Chris Joy wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

///M wrote:

p e t a p i x e l .com/2015/09/10/zeiss-unveils-a-new-milvus-line-of-lenses-for-canon-and-nikon-dslrs/

the 21 /2.8 Distagon may be worth adapting though, for landscapes, hopefully the mustache distortion is corrected now

From my POV, announcing new lenses to around 40 journalists from all around the world and asking them to keep silent is silly thing to do. Maybe, that was on intention, but I didn't say it...

Batis! Batis! Batis!

I really have only one question, will the Batis back orders be slowed down by rolling out the new lenses given how long it's taken to fill Loxia back orders. Seeing this, I wonder if I'll see my 25mm before 2016.

Hi Chris,

they certainly have a problem with Batis supply, simply because they underestimated market interest and production capacity. I asked when should we get Batis lenses for testing, which were promissed us three months ago and product manager himself told me that he has no idea, but situation should improve soon. I hope that you will get your lens shortly.

I was a product manager for a few years. One of the key responsibility of a product manager is to manage the product life cycle. I have never known a product manager that doesn't know when the product will get to market and still can keep his/her job. In other words, you were told a lot of BS.

-- hide signature --

Sony A7II | A6000 | RX-10
from 12mm to 500mm

 vett93's gear list:vett93's gear list
Sony a9 Sony a7R III Sony a6500 Apple iPhone 11 Pro
biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 13,010
Re: New Zeiss Milvus lenses

I think it is a good move from Zeiss, updating the cosmetics and look of the ZE/ZF lines in tandem with their other FF lines (Batis and Otus). Plus the much needed update on the 50 and 85. Weather sealing is nice too.

I will keep waiting for a "wider than 25mm lens" from Loxia or Batis. It will have to be really good to beat the Nikon 20 f1.8 that I am currently using, this lens is fantastic.

-- hide signature --

www.paulobizarro.com
http://blog.paulobizarro.com/

 biza43's gear list:biza43's gear list
Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm X-S10 Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR XF 90mm Fujifilm XF 23mm F2 R WR +1 more
philip pj Senior Member • Posts: 1,608
Re: New Zeiss Milvus lenses

The two new fast M lenses are going to be hopeless to focus on OVF cameras in a lot of shooting conditions, so they are sub-optimal from a Sony FE users point of view.

They are also going in the exact wrong direction - manual focus lenses with no features that are huge and extremely heavy. The prices are right. The two portrait lenses replace Contax era 50/85 lenses of the same config in the ZE/ZF ranges. They are very good, going by the MTF, not quite Otus level.

But if asked to choose, most portrait shooters won't have much trouble:

Batis 85 - 475 grams - f1.8 - auto focus - OIS

Milvis 85 - 1280 grams - f1.4 - manual focus - no stability

Add in the camera body, it's 950 grams (a7r) and 2230 grams (5DS)...

Shooting people on the street, only one of these will work really well, the other one would work almost not at all.

Too slow to work, too hard to focus, too large, too heavy, too unstable, too threatening. It's a brutal but accurate calculus. These are surely studio lenses.

Documensony Senior Member • Posts: 1,171
Re: New Zeiss Milvus lenses
3

philip pj wrote:

The two new fast M lenses are going to be hopeless to focus on OVF cameras

Why is that?

They are also going in the exact wrong direction - manual focus lenses with no features that are huge and extremely heavy.

The Milvus range is specifically targeted for very high resolution needs. This is why the 50mm and 85mm have been reformulated and only some of the newer and more advanced lens designs from the classic lens range have been selected for Milvus clothing. High resolving power = more bulk.

Please note that Zeiss lenses are positioned as a high-end supplement to Canon's and Nikon's own lenses portfolios. They were never intended to compete with more mainstream lenses.

-- hide signature --

*Documensony*
'Spontaneity is enabled by rigorous practice'

biza43 Forum Pro • Posts: 13,010
Re: New Zeiss Milvus lenses
1

Documensony wrote:

philip pj wrote:

The two new fast M lenses are going to be hopeless to focus on OVF cameras

Why is that?

Indeed. With the proper screen for MF, plus the electronic green dot for focus confirmation, it is easy to achieve focus. I did for a few years in my Canon film and DSLR cameras with a ZE 50 f1.4 and ZE 21 f2.8. In LV, no problem.

They are also going in the exact wrong direction - manual focus lenses with no features that are huge and extremely heavy.

The Milvus range is specifically targeted for very high resolution needs. This is why the 50mm and 85mm have been reformulated and only some of the newer and more advanced lens designs from the classic lens range have been selected for Milvus clothing. High resolving power = more bulk.

Please note that Zeiss lenses are positioned as a high-end supplement to Canon's and Nikon's own lenses portfolios. They were never intended to compete with more mainstream lenses.

I agree. ZE and ZF lenses have always been targeted as specialty lenses. They have always been heavy, large, and some of them quite expensive. Some Canon and Nikon lenses are also heavy and large. Granted, the Zeiss have no AF, but they offer no compromise quality in construction and optical performance.

-- hide signature --

www.paulobizarro.com
http://blog.paulobizarro.com/

 biza43's gear list:biza43's gear list
Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm X-S10 Fujifilm XF 16mm F1.4 R WR XF 90mm Fujifilm XF 23mm F2 R WR +1 more
jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Viktor: very, very yummy indeed :) !!

Many thanks for the update - do you happen to have also some/similar news as to possible Milvus clothing to the venerable 135/2 (or f/1.8) formulation?

best, Quercy

verybiglebowski
OP verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 4,356
Re: Viktor: very, very yummy indeed :) !!

jpr2 wrote:

Many thanks for the update - do you happen to have also some/similar news as to possible Milvus clothing to the venerable 135/2 (or f/1.8) formulation?

best, Quercy

Hi Quercy,

as far as I was told, there is intention to slowly replace all lenses within Classic line with new "Latin birds names" design, except for Loxia. No one would tell us when of course, but that's the direction.

It seems that even Zeiss experts are not clear what exactly will happen though, because I got few controversial opinions regarding Milvus line.

As I was corrected here, it seems that only 50/1.4 ZE/ZF.2 and 85/1.4 ZE/ZF.2 classic will remain in the offer, while other will be replaced by Milvus, but one of the Zeiss expert claimed that this is not entirely true and that they will see how the market will recieve Milvus, and accordingly they will adjust production of the classic line.

Milvus lenses that are supposed to replace recent Classic counterparts do have new coatings though and that means slightly different color interpretation. This is unfortunate for us, who have most of the classic Zeiss lenses and would consider to add just new 50/1.4 and 85/1.4...

BTW, I don'tknow if it was reported already, but new Sony A7s II is supposed to hit the market in November (price was not announced yet). Camera has improved AF (still CDAF only), 120 f/s at full HD resolution, internal 4K recording and it will be in the design of a recent A7RII. There are some ther improvements (sealing e.g.) but not major sensor evolution from the previous model.

Cheers,

Viktor

-- hide signature --
 verybiglebowski's gear list:verybiglebowski's gear list
Sony a7R Sony a7R II Sony a7R III Sony a7R IV Zeiss Otus 55mm F1.4 +3 more
philip pj Senior Member • Posts: 1,608
no no

'With the proper screen for MF, plus the electronic green dot for focus confirmation, it is easy to achieve focus. I did for a few years in my Canon film and DSLR cameras with a ZE 50 f1.4 and ZE 21 f2.8. In LV, no problem.'

Depends what you do, perhaps. Ambient lighting in low LV situations, just do a simple comparison with any C/N DSLR and any a7 camera - same manual lens, same setting - examine files later. Use whatever mix of peaking/focus magnification you like. For OVF, for critical purposes the consensus is that the green dot approach is a sad afterthought.

And who wants to stare at an LCD on the back of the camera? Handholding, say in a church? I thought chimping went out years ago, but I've been a Sony user for some time now. Ming Thein has written about the difficulties of obtaining good focus with a Nikon and longer Zeiss MF lenses, and I doubt he works in my conditions.

Film cameras BTW were a very different kettle of fish, makers knew they needed to provide responsive aids and screens so we had very manual lens friendly cameras (fresnels, split screens, bright VFs), about the same size as a7 Sonys.

Then the two majors bloated their gear out, dropped their manual lenses, and went 99% AF - so no wonder their screens, their lens rings - all of it - is hopeless for manual usage as widely practiced by say, Leica or Sony users. I use this word advisedly by the way, I mean hopeless, not just as hyperbole, for fast lenses when you need accurate focus.

Do the tests. See for yourself - I have.

'High resolving power = more bulk.'

Then pls explain why the optical performance - that is what MTF is - is exactly the same for all the new heavyweight lenses, outside the much-needed 50/85 pair (to replace the already re-badged ex-Contax ZEF pair)?

Again, see the data sheets for verification - I have.

So this new line is pure cosmetics with a few incremental improvements. The lenses have porked up for no good reason, none at all. Good to see two new portrait lenses, but at their weights, they will not be welcomed by more than a vanishingly few photographers.

1280 grams for a fast 85 with no IBIS/EVF/focus aids  is - in 2015 - marketing madness.

verybiglebowski
OP verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 4,356
Re: no no

philip pj wrote:

'With the proper screen for MF, plus the electronic green dot for focus confirmation, it is easy to achieve focus. I did for a few years in my Canon film and DSLR cameras with a ZE 50 f1.4 and ZE 21 f2.8. In LV, no problem.'

Depends what you do, perhaps. Ambient lighting in low LV situations, just do a simple comparison with any C/N DSLR and any a7 camera - same manual lens, same setting - examine files later. Use whatever mix of peaking/focus magnification you like. For OVF, for critical purposes the consensus is that the green dot approach is a sad afterthought.

And who wants to stare at an LCD on the back of the camera? Handholding, say in a church? I thought chimping went out years ago, but I've been a Sony user for some time now. Ming Thein has written about the difficulties of obtaining good focus with a Nikon and longer Zeiss MF lenses, and I doubt he works in my conditions.

Film cameras BTW were a very different kettle of fish, makers knew they needed to provide responsive aids and screens so we had very manual lens friendly cameras (fresnels, split screens, bright VFs), about the same size as a7 Sonys.

Then the two majors bloated their gear out, dropped their manual lenses, and went 99% AF - so no wonder their screens, their lens rings - all of it - is hopeless for manual usage as widely practiced by say, Leica or Sony users. I use this word advisedly by the way, I mean hopeless, not just as hyperbole, for fast lenses when you need accurate focus.

Do the tests. See for yourself - I have.

'High resolving power = more bulk.'

Then pls explain why the optical performance - that is what MTF is - is exactly the same for all the new heavyweight lenses, outside the much-needed 50/85 pair (to replace the already re-badged ex-Contax ZEF pair)?

Again, see the data sheets for verification - I have.

So this new line is pure cosmetics with a few incremental improvements. The lenses have porked up for no good reason, none at all. Good to see two new portrait lenses, but at their weights, they will not be welcomed by more than a vanishingly few photographers1280 grams for a fast 85 with no IBIS/EVF/focus aids is - in 2015 - marketing madness.

Hi Philip,

I guess you are replying to someone elses comment?

To make things easier to follow, if you want to reply to someone else post, click "reply" button bellow particular post, not at the end of the whole thread.

BTW in my opinion, it all has its place and I would certainly be much more enthusiastic looking at the new Zeiss Milvus line.

If only weather protection would be added, it would make lot of sense for many users, but there are also improved coatings, de-clicking aperture feature and two completely new designs as already stated.

Speaking with Mr. Nasse from Zeiss, in his words - Milvus 85/1.4 and 50/1.4 are "almost" at the Otus level when it comes to optical correction, but much more affordable. (and smaller/lighter)

When you are writing about all that "modern" technology of 21st century, don't forget that there are lot of videographers who are not using AF for their work, will appreciate stepless aperture and most of all will welcome whole set of high quality color ballanced primes for rather affordable price.

In the last three years there were around 10 new DSLRs announced and other should come soon. I wouldn't call that outdated technology or dead market from the Zeiss perspective. Many photographers are using more than one system, and being one of them, I can't see anything wrong with it.

As you probably know, designing optics is usually game of priorities versus compromises. Look at the new Batis 85/1.8, which has without software corrections distortion over 3%. Why would Zeiss design lens with such a distortion? Mr. Nasse explained that it was necessary compromise in order to keep focusing element thin and light to allow fast AF in the compact lens body. Other compromises were made in regard to the bokeh.

Batis 25/2 and many other modern lenses are showing significant improvement in the extreme corner performance, paying the price in slightly lower center resolution and especially midzone (not that it is low, but without improving corners, it could be higher) and so on...

Regards,

Viktor

-- hide signature --
 verybiglebowski's gear list:verybiglebowski's gear list
Sony a7R Sony a7R II Sony a7R III Sony a7R IV Zeiss Otus 55mm F1.4 +3 more
Dave Sanders Senior Member • Posts: 2,610
Re: no no

philip pj wrote:

Depends what you do, perhaps. Ambient lighting in low LV situations, just do a simple comparison with any C/N DSLR and any a7 camera - same manual lens, same setting - examine files later. Use whatever mix of peaking/focus magnification you like. For OVF, for critical purposes the consensus is that the green dot approach is a sad afterthought.

Since adding a D810 to my A7R, I have found the green dot inconsistent. Bang on sometimes, off others. Peaking plus magnification is quite a bit superior for most uses and I enjoy using it more.

Ming Thein has written about the difficulties of obtaining good focus with a Nikon and longer Zeiss MF lenses, and I doubt he works in my conditions.

I suspect Ming works in significantly more difficult conditions, with more pressure to produce better results. His ultraprints are exceptionally demanding of camera and resolution. There are few photographers who require and demand more from their cameras. Your complete loss of objectivity about Ming negates much of what you profess to believe.

Film cameras BTW were a very different kettle of fish, makers knew they needed to provide responsive aids and screens so we had very manual lens friendly cameras (fresnels, split screens, bright VFs), about the same size as a7 Sonys.

Then the two majors bloated their gear out, dropped their manual lenses, and went 99% AF - so no wonder their screens, their lens rings - all of it - is hopeless for manual usage as widely practiced by say, Leica or Sony users. I use this word advisedly by the way, I mean hopeless, not just as hyperbole, for fast lenses when you need accurate focus.

Do the tests. See for yourself - I have.

I have too. While not ideal, they are at least directly linked to the focus mechanism. 
Sony's fly-by-wire approach frequently jumps and can be frustratingly inaccurate at or near MFD. Your uses may not be as demanding as mine for focus precision, though, so YMMV.

'High resolving power = more bulk.'

Then pls explain why the optical performance - that is what MTF is - is exactly the same for all the new heavyweight lenses, outside the much-needed 50/85 pair (to replace the already re-badged ex-Contax ZEF pair)?

I was seriously thinking about the new 50/1.4 and when I looked at the 'Specs' section at B&H, I have to admit that I thought that it was the 85/1.4 and had to double check. Pretty porky and I am not seriously considering it anymore. Perhaps the 50/2.

Again, see the data sheets for verification - I have.

So this new line is pure cosmetics with a few incremental improvements. The lenses have porked up for no good reason, none at all. Good to see two new portrait lenses, but at their weights, they will not be welcomed by more than a vanishingly few photographers.

Unfortunately, you will be wrong on this count. They will be welcomed by a large number of photographers and they will probably sell more of them than they do any of their FE mount lenses. Their next iterations of lenses like the 25/2.8 or 28/2 will then get similar porky updates...sigh.

-- hide signature --

Dave Sanders

philip pj Senior Member • Posts: 1,608
Re: no no

Dave, this:

'Sony's fly-by-wire approach frequently jumps and can be frustratingly inaccurate at or near MFD.'

came in response to my comment about manual focus lenses, not AF lenses manually focused. I don't like using any AF lens with FBW manually. The green dot technique has been discussed (with some disgust) by many users of that poor method, at FM and elsewhere. It is roundly and widely condemned as not being good enough. That is not a surprise when C/N make precious few manual focus lenses, is it?

'They will be welcomed by a large number of photographers and they will probably sell more of them than they do any of their FE mount lenses.'

Then why did Zeiss wait many long years to update these two lenses? A small oversight? They were the only two of the ZE range that were virtually identical to the antecedents in the CY range, and the ZE range kicked off almost a decade ago.

It doesn't sound likely to have been a high priority, the impartial observer might agree.

The reason of course is that C/N users are almost all wedded to AF (sensibly given our discussion here), and f1.4 lenses of this FL range are very hard to work even with everything going for you - something Thein noted with re the Otus 85. And squinting at the little TV at the back won't ever match the now very good EVFs.

You may/may not realize the Batis 85 is 3-4 months away from constant supply to retail. Zeiss are shocked at the demand.

[I'll ignore the snide remarks, and put that down to you having a bad day, which happens to all of us at times.]

I'm objective about facts and honest reporting but condescension and emoting negatively in reviews are certainly not my cup of tea, nor comments about anoraks, whatever that might mean...perhaps something was lost in translation?

The anti-Sony vibe was not lost however, and that is likely the most important part for his readership. If you are a fan of MT - and I know these self-styled celeb guys collect followings of gear freaks - check out his comments on the 85 Otus focus abilities, and it shares the basic config with the new lens, but is actually (almost incredibly) lighter.

Here is the progression of the Zeiss 85/1.4 series (for (D)SLR) over the past 20 years or so:

CY - 595 grams

ZE - 670 grams

Otus - 1200 grams

Milvis - 1280 grams

Let's throw in Batis 85 at 475 grams, for the sake of comparison - and this being a Sony forum. So that is the data, no commentary needed there.

Ming is always welcome to accompany me to 5000m to shoot in -15C, and to do the long treks in West Tibet, and Ladakh. Or the super humid environment of the Tasmania wilderness, days from any other human being. Or the LV 0-1 inside temples.

You know, when he feels like a break from his..what was it? that's right - "significantly more difficult conditions". LOL. Do have a good day, now. To put the new 85/1.4 in perspective, I'll leave you with wide open MTF for the 1280 gram M-monster and the 475 gram Batis, just 2/3 of a stop slower - and note it has AF and OIS and works on an IBIS body:

Milvis 85/1.4 at f1.4 - 50-70-90 centers, corner drop off and low 40lpmm.

Batis 85 at f1.8. 67-85-93 centers. very high 10lpmm (contrast and subject separation) and flat 40lpmm for great detail, with much less outer frame fall off. Close parallel lines everywhere for great imaging and contour definition to the very edge.

jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
Viktor: Batis 85/1.8 distortions & compromises

verybiglebowski wrote:

As you probably know, designing optics is usually game of priorities versus compromises. Look at the new Batis 85/1.8, which has without software corrections distortion over 3%. Why would Zeiss design lens with such a distortion? Mr. Nasse explained that it was necessary compromise in order to keep focusing element thin and light to allow fast AF in the compact lens body. Other compromises were made in regard to the bokeh.

Viktor,

as users' input is sometimes pretty important:

  • while I really crave for a fast yet accurate AF'ing on the 85/1.4 (well, perhaps f/1.8 is not too far away);
  • I'm, OTOH pretty much disappointed with such heavy 3% distortion,
  • and even more so that Zeiss philosophy paradigm has changed towards ACCEPTING as default such SW corrections;
  • so... given a choice I'd rather be much more happy to live with a larger size,
  • no-compromises on AF'ing,
  • but also no compromises on distortions (and of course SW corrections treated as an enemy rather than a designed-in part of the solution).

best, Quercy

Abrak Veteran Member • Posts: 4,186
Re: Viktor: Batis 85/1.8 distortions & compromises

jpr2 wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

As you probably know, designing optics is usually game of priorities versus compromises. Look at the new Batis 85/1.8, which has without software corrections distortion over 3%. Why would Zeiss design lens with such a distortion? Mr. Nasse explained that it was necessary compromise in order to keep focusing element thin and light to allow fast AF in the compact lens body. Other compromises were made in regard to the bokeh.

Viktor,

as users' input is sometimes pretty important:

  • while I really crave for a fast yet accurate AF'ing on the 85/1.4 (well, perhaps f/1.8 is not too far away);
  • I'm, OTOH pretty much disappointed with such heavy 3% distortion,
  • and even more so that Zeiss philosophy paradigm has changed towards ACCEPTING as default such SW corrections;
  • so... given a choice I'd rather be much more happy to live with a larger size,
  • no-compromises on AF'ing,
  • but also no compromises on distortions (and of course SW corrections treated as an enemy rather than a designed-in part of the solution).

best, Quercy

While we are all entitled to our different opinions on this subject, it seems to me the Batis is far more in sync with the philosophy behind the A7 bodies.

Software corrections are a modern benefit of digital (combined with EVF) which allows us to have lighter lenses with great image quality. 1.8 v 1.4 makes more sense as we dont really need the lens speeds of yesteryear apart from for 'artistic' effect and again allows lighter lenses that fit with the body.

The compromise in image quality appears minute and the gain in size, weight and portability very significant. Given the technology, I think it is nonsensical to develop lenses along the paradigms of 30 years ago.

Dave Sanders Senior Member • Posts: 2,610
Re: no no
3

philip pj wrote:

Dave, this:

'Sony's fly-by-wire approach frequently jumps and can be frustratingly inaccurate at or near MFD.'

came in response to my comment about manual focus lenses, not AF lenses manually focused.

No, it came in response to this:

Then the two majors bloated their gear out, dropped their manual lenses, and went 99% AF - so no wonder their screens, their lens rings - all of it - is hopeless for manual usage as widely practiced by say, Leica or Sony users.

That is quite clearly indicating how hopeless AF lenses of the two majors are for MF. So I was comparing apples to apples, AF lenses to AF lenses. If you meant MF, well, the two majors have MF lenses with appropriate helicoids available as well, currently manufactured and previously manufactured. They can help a person engage in the 'manual usage widely practiced by say, Leica or Sony users'. As a system, the green dot method of the DSLRs is generally inferior to peaking, as I have quite clearly stated.

I don't like using any AF lens with FBW manually. The green dot technique has been discussed (with some disgust) by many users of that poor method, at FM and elsewhere. It is roundly and widely condemned as not being good enough.

Yes, it isn't good enough, though I don't really have to listen to the discussions as I actually use both methods daily so I'm quite acutely aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Peaking is great. However, Sony's implementation is poor when composing using the whole screen and requires magnification for any form of accuracy. If peaking is set to 'LOW' for better accuracy using the whole screen, it disappears in magnification mode. If it is set to 'HIGH' to remain visible when using magnification, it is far too inaccurate using the whole screen. For keeping the whole subject in view while focusing and shooting, the green dot method works better.

This is a stranger I met on the beach while shooting. Interesting fellow, former 'art' filmmaker.

He was talking and moving, so focus had to be quick.

In this situation, I prefer an OVF and a green dot. For all others, peaking.

That is not a surprise when C/N make precious few manual focus lenses, is it?

Sony doesn't actually make any MF lenses at all so Nikon currently makes more MF lenses than Sony.

'They will be welcomed by a large number of photographers and they will probably sell more of them than they do any of their FE mount lenses.'

Then why did Zeiss wait many long years to update these two lenses? A small oversight?

They were selling well without an update?

They were the only two of the ZE range that were virtually identical to the antecedents in the CY range, and the ZE range kicked off almost a decade ago.

And sold well for a decade?

It doesn't sound likely to have been a high priority, the impartial observer might agree.

Nope, because perhaps their sales were helping to pay the bills?

You may/may not realize the Batis 85 is 3-4 months away from constant supply to retail. Zeiss are shocked at the demand.

As someone waiting for a B25, I'm very aware of this. Without knowing how many they're producing, it means nothing. Since they've just put 6 lenses in two different mounts into production, one could make the assumption that Cosina is using a lot of their capacity elsewhere and perhaps earmarked little of it for the Batii.

[I'll ignore the snide remarks, and put that down to you having a bad day, which happens to all of us at times.]

Given your posting history, you must be having a lot of bad days recently. Hope things get better for you.

I'm objective about facts and honest reporting but condescension and emoting negatively in reviews are certainly not my cup of tea,

Again, your posting history would generally indicate that condescension and emoting negatively is actually your cup of tea.

nor comments about anoraks, whatever that might mean...perhaps something was lost in translation?

Or it was his opinion, which he shares about a wide variety of subjects. He picked on Sony, you got angry and since then have felt quite comfortable judging him despite your obvious lack of objectivity concerning him, or anyone who insults Sony for that matter. It's OK, bad days happen to all of us at times. Perhaps you should read more than one of his posts. He has over 2 million words, most of it about art, composition, vision, etc.

The anti-Sony vibe was not lost however, and that is likely the most important part for his readership.

Again, you know too little to judge.

If you are a fan of MT - and I know these self-styled celeb guys collect followings of gear freaks -

Again, a (condescending) assessment of him as a 'self-styled celeb' guy when you know literally nothing about him. And besides, perhaps it's not how you intend to come off, but your posts make you out to be the biggest gear freak on this board. A large number of your posts are about the magical ability of the right Sony gear to make the right photographer better. You worship gear, as far as I can tell. I don't. We will always disagree because my approach to photography involves much less concern about my camera, more about my creative process and my ability to execute it.

Ming is always welcome to accompany me to 5000m to shoot in -15C, and to do the long treks in West Tibet, and Ladakh.

Hiking is not particularly hard on gear, nor is cold. -15 doesn't qualify as an extreme environment. I live in Canada. -15C is not particularly cold nor is it hard on gear. I know hiking in -15 seems extreme to you, but when I'm back in my home town, that's a warm walk to the store.

Or the super humid environment of the Tasmania wilderness,

He lives in Malaysia.

days from any other human being. Or the LV 0-1 inside temples.

He did an entire assignment photographing underground boring machines and their workers. That is an extreme environment. Dark, humid, dusty, vibrating, dangerous, etc.

You know, when he feels like a break from his..what was it? that's right - "significantly more difficult conditions". LOL.

Grown men don't LOL on the internet.

Do have a good day, now.

I always do. Condescending post to follow? I await more LOL's.

-- hide signature --

Dave Sanders

verybiglebowski
OP verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 4,356
Re: Viktor: Batis 85/1.8 distortions & compromises

jpr2 wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

As you probably know, designing optics is usually game of priorities versus compromises. Look at the new Batis 85/1.8, which has without software corrections distortion over 3%. Why would Zeiss design lens with such a distortion? Mr. Nasse explained that it was necessary compromise in order to keep focusing element thin and light to allow fast AF in the compact lens body. Other compromises were made in regard to the bokeh.

Viktor,

Hi Quercy,

as users' input is sometimes pretty important:

while I really crave for a fast yet accurate AF'ing on the 85/1.4 (well, perhaps f/1.8 is not too far //away);..

Batis 85/1.8 is a fast focusing lens (for its class) and in conjunction with the eye focus function of A7 it can deliver good, consistent results. You can't use eye focus always, (most profile shots e.g., strong back light, low light in studio, and of course if your subjects has no eyes...) but it is great advancement in focusing technology for sure.

I'm, OTOH pretty much disappointed with such heavy 3% distortion,
and even more so that Zeiss philosophy paradigm has changed towards ACCEPTING as default such SW corrections;

If I made it sound like it, I am really sorry. Zeiss is certainly not accepting any compromises as default. Those guys are striving to bring highest quality, competitive products, no matter what it takes.

Designing the lens, always lead to some compromises though. I mentioned Batis line, but you can find many compromises in Otus too, starting with size, weight, and price.

Going a little extra in one or other department at the recent level of possible corrections, means that slight advance in output need significant effort in most production aspects (material and labor costs, production capacity optimization, size and logistic etc.)

so... given a choice I'd rather be much more happy to live with a larger size,
no-compromises on AF'ing,

I am sure we will see more AF lenses in this range, but if the size is not the problem, there is very nice SAL 8514 ZA with LA-EA4 already available. I expect this lens to be adapted for E mount, improving AF speed, using full advantage of native focusing system and improving CA wide open, but it might take a bit more time... I bet the key questions engineers are considering recently are related to the size and costs of such a lens.

but also no compromises on distortions (and of course SW corrections treated as an enemy rather than a designed-in part of the solution).

While optical corrections are superior in technical regard than software correction, the later technology vastly advanced and it become part of the lens design.

There is nothing wrong with it, except that most system based lens tests today, are not really comparable across the different platforms.

I don't like to rely on in camera software corrections and I prefer real RAW output to work with later in the pp (sometimes the amount of auto removed vignetting could be to aggressive or distortion can end over corrected due to the view point, etc...), but that is not what mainstream market is alike.

Batis is meant to be a mainstream product (in the Zeiss world), so it should be treated as such and Zeiss made compromises where they shouldn't affect typical user at all, giving him all benefits he asked for - AF, OSS (in 85), compactness, sharpness, weather sealing, fancy OLED display and affordable price. IMHO, it is going to be very successful line and rightfully so.(I will personally question product manager why he didin't anticipate it by ensuring flawless supplies, but if he was most responsible for bringing Batis on the market, he deserves a bit of customer tolerance I guess.)

Paying the price for all this by compromising optical distortion that can be software corrected so that most users won't noticed at all, on the lens that is mainly designed for portraiture at the distance, where distortion shouldn't be the key issue even uncorrected, was IMHO smart decision.

best, Quercy

Regards,

Viktor

-- hide signature --
 verybiglebowski's gear list:verybiglebowski's gear list
Sony a7R Sony a7R II Sony a7R III Sony a7R IV Zeiss Otus 55mm F1.4 +3 more
spacemn Senior Member • Posts: 1,743
Re: no no

philip pj wrote:

...

Here is the progression of the Zeiss 85/1.4 series (for (D)SLR) over the past 20 years or so:

CY - 595 grams

ZE - 670 grams

Otus - 1200 grams

Milvis - 1280 grams

Let's throw in Batis 85 at 475 grams, for the sake of comparison - and this being a Sony forum. So that is the data, no commentary needed there.

Ming is always welcome to accompany me to 5000m to shoot in -15C, and to do the long treks in West Tibet, and Ladakh. Or the super humid environment of the Tasmania wilderness, days from any other human being. Or the LV 0-1 inside temples.

You know, when he feels like a break from his..what was it? that's right - "significantly more difficult conditions". LOL. Do have a good day, now. To put the new 85/1.4 in perspective, I'll leave you with wide open MTF for the 1280 gram M-monster and the 475 gram Batis, just 2/3 of a stop slower - and note it has AF and OIS and works on an IBIS body:

Milvis 85/1.4 at f1.4 - 50-70-90 centers, corner drop off and low 40lpmm.

Batis 85 at f1.8. 67-85-93 centers. very high 10lpmm (contrast and subject separation) and flat 40lpmm for great detail, with much less outer frame fall off. Close parallel lines everywhere for great imaging and contour definition to the very edge.

I completely agree. The new Milvus 85mm doesn't seem to make much sense for the E-mount users being even heavier than the Otus.

I only see the use for Cinematographers who wants a set of semi matched Zeiss cine lenses but on a budget. For photography and hobby videographers I'd definitely get the Batis 85mm or wait for the Sony Zeiss 1.4/85 which vyer likely will happen soon and announced going into the Photo+ in October.

JackyNg
JackyNg Regular Member • Posts: 140
Re: New Zeiss Milvus lenses

As long as you are willing to sacrifice auto focus that is, oh and 800 extra gram

 JackyNg's gear list:JackyNg's gear list
Sony a7 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Zeiss Batis 85mm F1.8 Sony a9 Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Art +2 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads