Urgent bounce flash question 760D owners

Bought a 70D recently and am seriously thinking of returning it. The issue is the camera's ability to meter when bouncing the flash. With my old 350D I set the camera to manual, iso, aperture, shutter speed depending on the situation then let the camera work out the right amount of flash needed. I normally have +2/3 FEC on the flash and keep it there. This is totally different on the 70D. The exposures vary greatly, mostly under exposed. sometimes by as much as +1 to +2 stops. This can obviously be corrected by using FEC but I don't want to be mucking around with this constantly.

So my question is for those using the 760D, is this how this camera behaves when bouncing the flash. Does it get a good exposure most of the time?

The lens I am using is the 18-135mm. The consensus seems to be that it happens when using a slow lens and a longer focal length.

If the 760D is a set and forget system for bouncing the flash then I will most likely exchange the camera.

Then there raises another issue. I need to have a good video function. The 70D is one of the best cameras for video due to its dual pixel sensor. So the other question is how is the 760D vs the 70D for video. particularly for auto focusing (speed, accuracy, face detection)

Last issue is the spotting on the sensor. Seem like the news ones have no issues now?

It could be that you used average flash exposure mode instead of evaluative. Its been my experience that average is more consistent and predictable. I don't own the cameras you mention except the 350D, I used to own that too. Switching to a new camera results in defaulting to evaluative flash metering. I'm not sure where exactly the setting can be found but I suspect either in the flash menu or c.fn menu.

Even so, it could still be the shooting conditions too. Anything very reflective like glossy tiles, window panes, mirrors could affect exposure to a large degree. Or if you have an external flash within the frame could do the same.

It sounds like you are trying to use ETTL with a bounced flash. I am not an expert, but from what I have read, ETTLII only works if the flash head is facing directly forward. Once you tilt it up, there is no reliable measure of the distance from the flash to the subject and faulty exposure results. And if you modify the flash too, you lose even more light. Am I right?

Apparently the 70D has this bounce flash "problem" that you describe, or some copies of it do. But I have never been able to understand why it should work with ETTL.

EDIT: Of course, the fact that lots of shooters claim that they can bounce the flash with ETTL successfully every time with some cameras seems to confound the issue, and it sure as hell confuses me!

snofox wrote:

It sounds like you are trying to use ETTL with a bounced flash. I am not an expert, but from what I have read, ETTLII only works if the flash head is facing directly forward.

No, it usually works great in all sorts of non-straight-ahead scenarios, but evaluative metering does some tricks that can make it harder to get what you want.

Once you tilt it up, there is no reliable measure of the distance from the flash to the subject and faulty exposure results.

AFAIK, the distance from the flash to the subject is irrelevant as long as the subject is in "range" (the flash has enough output to illuminate the subject). The distance from the camera to the subject (as measured by the lens) is used, apparently.

And if you modify the flash too, you lose even more light. Am I right?

You do, but E-TTL works by measuring how much light gets back to the camera from the subject. It doesn't matter how far apart they flash and subject are, or how much light you lose, it only matters that the flash can provide enough. In theory.

Apparently the 70D has this bounce flash "problem" that you describe, or some copies of it do. But I have never been able to understand why it should work with ETTL.

Low-powered pre-flash illuminates the subject, metering system detects that illumination, metering system determines the required flash output based on how much of the pre-flash made it back from the subject, metering system tells the flash to fire hard enough, flash fires that hard when the shutter is open. What could go wrong?

EDIT: Of course, the fact that lots of shooters claim that they can bounce the flash with ETTL successfully every time with some cameras seems to confound the issue, and it sure as hell confuses me!

The first thing you have to ask is what metering modes they are using. Canon defaults everything to evaluative, which is designed to do it all for people who don't want or need to take control. If you are trying to take control, eval. modes with get in your way and mess you up. My motto is, if it's compulsory in the Basic Zone modes, avoid it in the Creative Zone modes, so I use centre-weighted (ambient) and average (flash) and don't have any trouble. I haven't tried a 70D but I do believe there are some misbehaving ones.

Thanks! I learned a lot today thanks to your post.

I have a 760D and have used the flash quite a bit...some direct and some bounce.  I have not had an issue.

Are you using a Canon flash?  I have a 430II and have paid a premium for the Canon brand and with the expectation that it will work reliably with any Canon camera now or in the future.

As mentioned, I would avoid evaluative metering.  In fact that is one of the first changes I made to the default 760D settings.  I prefer center weighted.  Of course, there is no such thing as set and forget.  With the flash I use flash compensation depending on the specific image.  This is usually just an issue of fine tuning.  Unfortunately Canon sensors have limited dynamic ranges so an accurate exposure is important.  With a Sony/Nikon sensor, I would probably just set and forget and then adjust in post.  With a bit of experience it is easy to look at the brightness in the center of the image and to predict what the camera will do and what if any adjustment might be needed.  Worst case, you might have the time to shoot, check the histogram, adjust and reshoot.  I rarely have the opportunity to reshoot.  So I work to get the exposure correct the first time.  When shooting flash, I often need to make changes that alter the balance of flash and ambient lighting.  That can mean substantial changes in ISO so fine tuning the exposure is just one issue.  I guess what I am saying is you need to understand how your camera will operate and to take control.

I know nothing about a 70D.  I have no idea if there is an issue with metering for flash.  I really doubt that is the case.  I have a T3i and formerly an XSi.  Those cameras also worked reliably with flash metering.

ozgti wrote:

..... For those that say you need to adjust the FEC depending on the shot how often are you doing it? .....

I use center weighted metering.  If there is a lot of darkness towards the center of my image, the camera will add brightness.  If there is a large bright subject in the center of my image, the camera will decrease the brightness.  Without flash I might make an eV adjustment for either situation.  I would subtract for a dark subject in the center and add for a light subject in the center.  This has nothing to do with using flash.  But if I were using flash, I would make adjustments as desired with the flash compensation.  It is rare that I would need to make an adjustment more than 1 full stop.

walkaround wrote:............................

All the advanced cameras, as opposed to the Rebels, attempt to balance the flash level with the ambient light level. The Rebels, apparently (I don't own one) assume the flash is at all times the primary light source.

........

I have not experienced this with my XSi, T3i, or T6s.  The ETTR system seems to monitor the total light and to obtain correct exposure at least when using manual mode.  This is true is most of the light is ambient or from the flash.  I often balance the ambient and flash lighting by adjusting ISO and shutter speed/aperture.  In each case the camera obtains a correct exposure.  Direct or bounce flash does not change this.

Using flash correctly on any camera system including Nikon and Canon takes some knowledge.  I have two suggestions:

1.  Speedliter's handbook by arena is a great book.  He also teaches great classes.

2.  Shot manual:  set iso, shutter speed and aperture for the existing light without the flash on.  If you want the existing light to not show use a lower iso and smaller aperture.  Then turn your flash on in manual mode, adjust the power setting so whatever you are lighting captures the way you want.  You can adjust all your canon flash settings from the camera using the flash control panel.

Using ettl is fine but it is like using auto setting on your camera.  I call this push here dummy or phd mode.  If you are not happy with the results don't blame the camera.

There is a lot to using flash and there are no shortcuts to getting the best out of your camera system.  A lot to learn.

Bp

ozgti wrote:

Bought a 70D recently and am seriously thinking of returning it. The issue is the camera's ability to meter when bouncing the flash. With my old 350D I set the camera to manual, iso, aperture, shutter speed depending on the situation then let the camera work out the right amount of flash needed. I normally have +2/3 FEC on the flash and keep it there. This is totally different on the 70D. The exposures vary greatly, mostly under exposed. sometimes by as much as +1 to +2 stops. This can obviously be corrected by using FEC but I don't want to be mucking around with this constantly.

So my question is for those using the 760D, is this how this camera behaves when bouncing the flash. Does it get a good exposure most of the time?

The lens I am using is the 18-135mm. The consensus seems to be that it happens when using a slow lens and a longer focal length.

If the 760D is a set and forget system for bouncing the flash then I will most likely exchange the camera.

Then there raises another issue. I need to have a good video function. The 70D is one of the best cameras for video due to its dual pixel sensor. So the other question is how is the 760D vs the 70D for video. particularly for auto focusing (speed, accuracy, face detection)

Last issue is the spotting on the sensor. Seem like the news ones have no issues now?

ByronP wrote:

.....Then turn your flash on in manual mode, adjust the power setting so whatever you are lighting captures the way you want. ...............

And how does one determine the power setting?  Either experiment if you have time for multiple shots or take your best guess based on experience.  Personally I will stick to center weighted metering and ETTL.  I can usually predict the final result and can compensate with the flash exposure setting if necessary.  There are lots of ways to get to the final product, but for me, I will trust the ETTL to do most of the work and to get the exposure correct most of the time.

walkaround wrote:

All the advanced cameras, as opposed to the Rebels, attempt to balance the flash level with the ambient light level.

What does "balance" mean?

The Rebels, apparently (I don't own one) assume the flash is at all times the primary light source.

How do you know that?

walkaround wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

walkaround wrote:

All the advanced cameras, as opposed to the Rebels, attempt to balance the flash level with the ambient light level.

What does "balance" mean?

Just that. The flash level is appropriate to the ambient lighting. This produces a more natural image that doesn't have that 70s disposable flashbulb harsh look to it.

If you want that look, go manual.

Okay, so what I think you mean is the ambient metering is not affected by flash.

The Rebels, apparently (I don't own one) assume the flash is at all times the primary light source.

How do you know that?

Based on other people's descriptions of how they work, and their seemingly unmet expectations for the 5D and xxD cameras.

If you can come up with a simple experiment that shows the difference, a Rebel owner could help us find out for sure.

You know Wilba, as a big fan of your mythbuster articles here, I must say that I'm very disappointed to see you of all people helping to perpetuate one of the biggest Canon myths of all.

I have no idea what you're referring to. Please explain the myth and how I'm perpetuating it.

The 70D has a major underexposure problem with diffused or bounced flash with every Canon lens I own. Many owners of the 70D have experienced this same problem.

I also recently purchased the Nikon D5500, which is an exceptional camera, after deciding that I don't want to give Canon any more of my money in the future after the 70D flash debacle was completely ignored by them. I'm pretty much done with Canon at this point.

Here is a couple quotes in bold from me from another thread I responded to regarding the 70D:

"My 70D underexposes bounce flash so badly(whether bouncing off the ceiling or using a Vello bounce diffuser) that I was going to sell it because I take a lot of indoor bounce flash photos of our new grandchild and want a camera that works like every other camera I've ever used in that regard. It really is that bad imo. I'm talking about when I use it indoors with low light. Whether it will function properly with a diffuser while using flash as a fill flash outside I don't know.

Why Canon has chosen to ignore this glaring issue and not issue firmware is beyond my understanding.

Because I have so much Canon gear, and I don't feel like screwing with it and can't afford to even if I wanted to, I chose to keep the 70D. If I had the money, I would have jumped the Canon ship for this and went to Nikon or Sony a long time ago.

Instead, The way I fixed the 70D's bounce flash problem is I coughed up another $400 and bought the Canon SL1. Problem fixed. The SL1 takes outstanding bounce flash photos(just like all the other Canon Camera's I've ever used except the 70D), and every other kind of photo too. This is such an awesome small and light DSLR camera that takes such nice photos.

The T3i I had I gave to my daughter when I bought the 70D. I would have just kept it if I had only known. It has no problem with bounce flash either and takes beautiful photos, flash or not.

My flash is the 430ex ii and most of my photos that I'm referring to are taken with the 70D while standing or sitting in my house somewhere but almost always within 10 feet or so of the subject. This is the same distance I'm using with my new SL1, and used with my T3i, with the same lenses with the same subject(my granddaughter). The exposures for the SL1 and T3i are identical to each other and are excellent while the pics taken with the 70D are poor at best.

As a side note, If I flash exposure lock on the subject before snapping the bounce flash picture with the 70D, all the photos are exposed perfectly.

If I don't FEL before snapping the photo, they are all very underexposed. Adjusting the exposure compensation does absolutely nothing to help correct the underexposure either. On the other hand, with my new SL1 or my old T3i, I never have to FEL when using bounce to get proper exposure.

The 70D does have an excellent video feature which I use a lot and takes excellent regular photos as well.

It's sort of comical in that I had never before purchased a camera as expensive as the 70D. This was a big purchase for me in terms of cost and was my "holy grail" camera body purchase. It never in a million years occurred to me that a camera would miss the mark so badly with such a basic function as diffused flash photography. When I saw the results this camera was producing, I knew I was doing something wrong. But what, I asked myself. All the other cameras of theirs that I owned never did this. Then, when I started reading other people's complaints about the same thing, I knew it wasn't me or my equipment.

Then to have Canon ignore it as if it isn't there really changed my whole attitude toward this company.

I've had many good years of taking photos with Canon products. A lot of the non L lenses they currently make are spectacular imo and the cameras they make really do take great photos. For this reason, I guess I'm not going to hold this one issue against them to the point of leaving them, not that I could afford to. With that said, I agree with your decision that you should stay away from the 70D if you do a lot of indoor bounce/diffuse flash photography. Like I said, if only I knew then what I know now I would not have bought this camera for half the price I paid for it."