I'm not convinced that Sigma actually wants to sell cameras . .

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

OK, they take nice pictures but, after playing with my newly acquired DP1s and DP2s, I find it quite cynical that the DP1s comes with a DP1 manual and a scruffy fold-up sheet in a hundred different languages with the English bit spread across several folds to tell us the differences between the DP1s and it's predecessor.

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

With scaling variations like this, and the X3F format changing with each new model, it is small wonder that so few converter providers have anything to do Sigma's products.

I actually bought these two cameras thinking they would be no different to the SD14 (same sensor, right?). Ha, how naïve can one get?!!

A storm in a tea-cup, you might say - but every time I open an X3F in RawDigger, I now have to set the over/under exposure levels to suit the stupid camera used. Ridiculous!

Hmm.. I will try to remember to take a look at some of my old "original" DP2 X3F files to see if they show the same limit you are seeing.

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

OK, they take nice pictures but, after playing with my newly acquired DP1s and DP2s, I find it quite cynical that the DP1s comes with a DP1 manual and a scruffy fold-up sheet in a hundred different languages with the English bit spread across several folds to tell us the differences between the DP1s and it's predecessor.

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

What is a "raw level"?  I recently bought a refurbished DP2s from Sigma and am quite pleased with both it and the software it uses (Sigma Photo Pro 4.2), but have no idea what these numbers mean that you posted for the various cameras.

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

OK, they take nice pictures but, after playing with my newly acquired DP1s and DP2s, I find it quite cynical that the DP1s comes with a DP1 manual and a scruffy fold-up sheet in a hundred different languages with the English bit spread across several folds to tell us the differences between the DP1s and it's predecessor.

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

With scaling variations like this, and the X3F format changing with each new model, it is small wonder that so few converter providers have anything to do Sigma's products.

I actually bought these two cameras thinking they would be no different to the SD14 (same sensor, right?). Ha, how naïve can one get?!!

A storm in a tea-cup, you might say - but every time I open an X3F in RawDigger, I now have to set the over/under exposure levels to suit the stupid camera used. Ridiculous!

Ok, I looked at the RAW files from my DP2, and a bit over 2000 appears to be the limit. Sigma is probably using 11 bits of a 12 bit DAC for intensity, or perhaps the DAC is signed instead of unsigned. Though I can't imagine why they would want to use a signed DAC for intensity. Cost?

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter (not for you Ted, but for anyone else that isn't familiar with the term DAC.

xpatUSA wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

What is a "raw level"? I recently bought a refurbished DP2s from Sigma and am quite pleased with both it and the software it uses (Sigma Photo Pro 4.2), but have no idea what these numbers mean that you posted for the various cameras.

Yes, I will try to explain. When we take a raw shot, which you can do by selecting RAW from the Qs menu on the camera, the in-camera firmware takes all the sensor output values or 'levels', does a bit of scaling and writes the shot as a file of type X3F onto the memory card. In that file, the image data part is called the 'raw' data because nothing has been done to it like applying the white balance and converting the 'raw' data into a JPEG image.

Each sensor pixel location in an image has three 'raw' values or levels, one for each layer. For simplicity, we can say that, in-camera, the level for each layer can be between 0 and 4095 (12 bits), no less and no more. But, the camera does a bit more with that data, including some scaling and writes it to the card so as to fit into 16bits which computers are more comfortable with.

If you look at these numbers with a utility program, you can learn a lot more about how well the camera is exposing the shot - as opposed to what the color-picker says in SPP 4.2. The trouble is that these ranges of levels from min to max are written to the card differently for just about every camera model that Sigma makes.

So "exposing to the right" means aiming for different raw numbers depending on what camera you're shooting. Aiming for good raw numbers because the in-camera histogram is not always the best guide for a good exposure. So, reasonable goals for your DP2s when opened in RawDigger should show levels (highs) of, say,no more than 2300. But reasonable goals for my SD14 might be around 7,000. And an SD1M, around 4,000.

I'm enjoying my DP2s that I received this very week.

I appreciate your explanation.  I'm afraid I don't understand it, but I do appreciate it.  Have to admit I'm not familiar with SPP's color picker either, nor have I used the camera's histogram.  The camera's metering system works pretty well, and I also enjoy my uncle's old incident light meter.

xpatUSA wrote:

Tom Zimmer wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

OK, they take nice pictures but, after playing with my newly acquired DP1s and DP2s, I find it quite cynical that the DP1s comes with a DP1 manual and a scruffy fold-up sheet in a hundred different languages with the English bit spread across several folds to tell us the differences between the DP1s and it's predecessor.

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

With scaling variations like this, and the X3F format changing with each new model, it is small wonder that so few converter providers have anything to do Sigma's products.

I actually bought these two cameras thinking they would be no different to the SD14 (same sensor, right?). Ha, how naïve can one get?!!

A storm in a tea-cup, you might say - but every time I open an X3F in RawDigger, I now have to set the over/under exposure levels to suit the stupid camera used. Ridiculous!

Ok, I looked at the RAW files from my DP2, and a bit over 2000 appears to be the limit.

Yep, I shot the sky and got 2293, 2302, 2295 and another scene with specular highlights gave 2323, 2320 and 2340.

Sigma is probably using 11 bits of a 12 bit DAC for intensity, or perhaps the DAC is signed instead of unsigned. Though I can't imagine why they would want to use a signed DAC for intensity. Cost?

Laid yourself wide open to the circling sharks, there, Tom

Who'll be first in, I wonder?

Ok, Ted, thank you for the "off line" correction. Smarty me, it's A2D (Analog to Digital converter), not DAC. That's what I get from being away from electronics for so long.

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

OK, they take nice pictures but, after playing with my newly acquired DP1s and DP2s, I find it quite cynical that the DP1s comes with a DP1 manual and a scruffy fold-up sheet in a hundred different languages with the English bit spread across several folds to tell us the differences between the DP1s and it's predecessor.

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to th

What do you mean by the term "raw values?"

e ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

With scaling variations like this, and the X3F format changing with each new model, it is small wonder that so few converter providers have anything to do Sigma's products.

I actually bought these two cameras thinking they would be no different to the SD14 (same sensor, right?). Ha, how naïve can one get?!!

A storm in a tea-cup, you might say - but every time I open an X3F in RawDigger, I now have to set the over/under exposure levels to suit the stupid camera used. Ridiculous!

Wouldn't that be the case with any camera? Setting different levels is the essence of shooting in RAW.

-- hide signature --

Not a happy camper at all.
Ted

xpatUSA wrote:

jrtrent wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

. . well after a couple of beers, I'm beginning to wonder!

But then, examining a raw histogram, I was amazed to see that the maximum raw level attainable with these two cameras is around 2,300 !!

I mean, the SD9 raw values can be up in the 10,000s the SD10 even higher, then the SD14 more like 9,000 and the SD1M more like a sane 4070 - which almost bears a resemblance to the ADCs output. God knows what the Quattro puts out, something different, I'm sure.

What is a "raw level"? I recently bought a refurbished DP2s from Sigma and am quite pleased with both it and the software it uses (Sigma Photo Pro 4.2), but have no idea what these numbers mean that you posted for the various cameras.

Yes, I will try to explain. When we take a raw shot, which you can do by selecting RAW from the Qs menu on the camera, the in-camera firmware takes all the sensor output values or 'levels', does a bit of scaling and writes the shot as a file of type X3F onto the memory card. In that file, the image data part is called the 'raw' data because nothing has been done to it like applying the white balance and converting the 'raw' data into a JPEG image.

Each sensor pixel location in an image has three 'raw' values or levels, one for each layer. For simplicity, we can say that, in-camera, the level for each layer can be between 0 and 4095 (12 bits), no less and no more. But, the camera does a bit more with that data, including some scaling and writes it to the card so as to fit into 16bits which computers are more comfortable with.

If you look at these numbers with a utility program, you can learn a lot more about how well the camera is exposing the shot - as opposed to what the color-picker says in SPP 4.2. The trouble is that these ranges of levels from min to max are written to the card differently for just about every camera model that Sigma makes.

So "exposing to the right" means aiming for different raw numbers depending on what camera you're shooting. Aiming for good raw numbers because the in-camera histogram is not always the best guide for a good exposure. So, reasonable goals for your DP2s when opened in RawDigger should show levels (highs) of, say,no more than 2300. But reasonable goals for my SD14 might be around 7,000. And an SD1M, around 4,000.

I'm enjoying my DP2s that I received this very week.

I come from a very technical background and I'm shaking my head at the moment. No offense intended but why are you focused on such irrelevancies? I say learn your camera and properly expose your images and move on. Photography isn't rocket science. Sigma cameras take great images. Enjoy your camera, while you still can.

Scottelly wrote:

I hear that car companies actually use different engines in their cars too.

I've even heard that other camera producers have been putting different sensors in their cameras since at least 2002!

Hi Ted, A question for the aside, where did you manage to purchase your new DPs?