Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction... Locked

Started Jan 27, 2015 | Discussions
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March Of The Tripods
March Of The Tripods Contributing Member • Posts: 856
Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

"Spanish Flyer wrote: I have both the A6000 and the A7S and I'm in the same boat as you are achieving good focus is a lottery. Don't know about other mirrorless cameras, but I'm just talking about Sony's AF crap."

"Mike_boston (thread OP) wrote: (in response to another post) That was my exact understanding of ILC vs SLR that there can't be front or back focus (ignoring LA-EAs). So for the first two weeks I was blaming myself, then I noticed that there a pattern how the camera is off by an inch or so every time it confirms focus and misses on the actual shot. That led me to run the focus chart (45 degree ruler like chart, in my case I used Jeffrey's focus chart), set the camera on a tripod, used remote ir release from cell phone all in good light and following all of the recommended settings for the test. The results were very surprising - camera missed about 40% and most of those were a in front of the center line, interestingly enough some fell behind. That led me to doubt 55/1.8, after switching it to another version, I got exactly the same result. Unfortunately, the store where I got my camera has a7ii on back order, so I couldn't swap bodies to try another one."

And finally, Keithop wrote:

I was in a similar position and returned it...

  • 1. As soon as I turned it on, there were two dead pixels on the back lcd, so it really had to go back anyway (but the question really was, whether to get another).
  • 2. I came from a7r which I hated. The hugely loud shutter bugged the hell out of me and made the whole system feel slow and obtrusive. Although the 7II is still loud, it's only JUST too loud and is a massive improvement on the 7r. I got used to it over the week.
  • 3. I found the AF very unpredictable. I'd put the centre point over an object and it would focus on something behind and lock. Well ok it had focussed, but not on what I wanted. I played around and kinda got used to how large an area it was looking at and what it would do in various situations but I was never delighted with the focus. People say it uses the a6000 af yet I found the a6000 did better in similar situations (with worse lenses)
  • 5. Battery life was awful. Sure, get another battery so not a show stopper but an irritation.
  •  
  • 7. only including usb charging in the box with a camera that expensive? seriously? Sony should include a proper battery charger.
  • 8. Most other CSCs include a base flash. I actually find popup flashes useful for fill in, but if not, they should at least include a tiny addon flash.
  • 9. Image quality was excellent and surpassed my expectations although high iso not as good as I'd have hoped for (although I'd seen reviews so knew what to expect)

The worst aspect for me is still the AF. I tried it next to an xt1 and the xt1 was better, the olympus em-1 killed it in terms of speed and accuracy."

Well, after reading much of this it's safe to say im not spending my cash there anytime soon...

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leonche64
leonche64 Contributing Member • Posts: 922
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

March Of The Tripods wrote:

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

"Spanish Flyer wrote: I have both the A6000 and the A7S and I'm in the same boat as you are achieving good focus is a lottery. Don't know about other mirrorless cameras, but I'm just talking about Sony's AF crap."

"Mike_boston (thread OP) wrote: (in response to another post) That was my exact understanding of ILC vs SLR that there can't be front or back focus (ignoring LA-EAs). So for the first two weeks I was blaming myself, then I noticed that there a pattern how the camera is off by an inch or so every time it confirms focus and misses on the actual shot. That led me to run the focus chart (45 degree ruler like chart, in my case I used Jeffrey's focus chart), set the camera on a tripod, used remote ir release from cell phone all in good light and following all of the recommended settings for the test. The results were very surprising - camera missed about 40% and most of those were a in front of the center line, interestingly enough some fell behind. That led me to doubt 55/1.8, after switching it to another version, I got exactly the same result. Unfortunately, the store where I got my camera has a7ii on back order, so I couldn't swap bodies to try another one."

And finally, Keithop wrote:

I was in a similar position and returned it...

  • 1. As soon as I turned it on, there were two dead pixels on the back lcd, so it really had to go back anyway (but the question really was, whether to get another).
  • 2. I came from a7r which I hated. The hugely loud shutter bugged the hell out of me and made the whole system feel slow and obtrusive. Although the 7II is still loud, it's only JUST too loud and is a massive improvement on the 7r. I got used to it over the week.
  • 3. I found the AF very unpredictable. I'd put the centre point over an object and it would focus on something behind and lock. Well ok it had focussed, but not on what I wanted. I played around and kinda got used to how large an area it was looking at and what it would do in various situations but I was never delighted with the focus. People say it uses the a6000 af yet I found the a6000 did better in similar situations (with worse lenses)
  • 5. Battery life was awful. Sure, get another battery so not a show stopper but an irritation.
  • 7. only including usb charging in the box with a camera that expensive? seriously? Sony should include a proper battery charger.
  • 8. Most other CSCs include a base flash. I actually find popup flashes useful for fill in, but if not, they should at least include a tiny addon flash.
  • 9. Image quality was excellent and surpassed my expectations although high iso not as good as I'd have hoped for (although I'd seen reviews so knew what to expect)

The worst aspect for me is still the AF. I tried it next to an xt1 and the xt1 was better, the olympus em-1 killed it in terms of speed and accuracy."

Well, after reading much of this it's safe to say im not spending my cash there anytime soon...

Wow, good thing you found that thread AFTER you had already complained about Sony on the numerous other threads. Come on, you had no interest in buying that camera.

 leonche64's gear list:leonche64's gear list
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JunzInc Regular Member • Posts: 472
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

"Spanish Flyer wrote: I have both the A6000 and the A7S and I'm in the same boat as you are achieving good focus is a lottery. Don't know about other mirrorless cameras, but I'm just talking about Sony's AF crap."

"Mike_boston (thread OP) wrote: (in response to another post) That was my exact understanding of ILC vs SLR that there can't be front or back focus (ignoring LA-EAs). So for the first two weeks I was blaming myself, then I noticed that there a pattern how the camera is off by an inch or so every time it confirms focus and misses on the actual shot. That led me to run the focus chart (45 degree ruler like chart, in my case I used Jeffrey's focus chart), set the camera on a tripod, used remote ir release from cell phone all in good light and following all of the recommended settings for the test. The results were very surprising - camera missed about 40% and most of those were a in front of the center line, interestingly enough some fell behind. That led me to doubt 55/1.8, after switching it to another version, I got exactly the same result. Unfortunately, the store where I got my camera has a7ii on back order, so I couldn't swap bodies to try another one."

And finally, Keithop wrote:

I was in a similar position and returned it...

  • 1. As soon as I turned it on, there were two dead pixels on the back lcd, so it really had to go back anyway (but the question really was, whether to get another).
  • 2. I came from a7r which I hated. The hugely loud shutter bugged the hell out of me and made the whole system feel slow and obtrusive. Although the 7II is still loud, it's only JUST too loud and is a massive improvement on the 7r. I got used to it over the week.
  • 3. I found the AF very unpredictable. I'd put the centre point over an object and it would focus on something behind and lock. Well ok it had focussed, but not on what I wanted. I played around and kinda got used to how large an area it was looking at and what it would do in various situations but I was never delighted with the focus. People say it uses the a6000 af yet I found the a6000 did better in similar situations (with worse lenses)
  • 5. Battery life was awful. Sure, get another battery so not a show stopper but an irritation.
  •  
  • 7. only including usb charging in the box with a camera that expensive? seriously? Sony should include a proper battery charger.
  • 8. Most other CSCs include a base flash. I actually find popup flashes useful for fill in, but if not, they should at least include a tiny addon flash.
  • 9. Image quality was excellent and surpassed my expectations although high iso not as good as I'd have hoped for (although I'd seen reviews so knew what to expect)

The worst aspect for me is still the AF. I tried it next to an xt1 and the xt1 was better, the olympus em-1 killed it in terms of speed and accuracy."

Well, after reading much of this it's safe to say im not spending my cash there anytime soon...

😊 I really have no clue in what you are trying to achieve by your behaviour of Constant Sony bashing for no real reason. Plenty of people are happy with all of the Sony Cameras that you are obsessed about portraying in a negative way.

But I just read about Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Hmm

Regards

 JunzInc's gear list:JunzInc's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony a6000 Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 4 Corel PaintShop Pro X4
uzman1243 Senior Member • Posts: 1,119
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

You can't present biased and selective information and conclude that this system is terrible.  I'm not saying your argument is invalid but I see far more positive reviews and scores than negatives.

 uzman1243's gear list:uzman1243's gear list
Sony a6000 Sony Vario-Tessar T* FE 16-35mm F4 ZA OSS
carlvalle com
carlvalle com Regular Member • Posts: 163
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

i was looking at your gallery and i noticed that your canon seems to be front focusing also. [the squirrel and the duck thing]

however it looks like your nikon nailed focus pretty well on those b&w images you posted.

then in your wish list you have some canon body listed along with a couple of low end lenses.

Seems to me the Sony is a better fit for you than you think. perhaps if you read more comments about the sony you will find it focuses good enough for you.

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sportyaccordy Forum Pro • Posts: 13,756
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

What's your next screen name gonna be? Seems like this one's NFL status- not for long

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shutterbud Senior Member • Posts: 1,350
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

What do you think you are doing? Do you believe anyone with even a cursory knowledge of your posting history will consider this entire thread anything more than an exercise in nastiness? I don't know whether you are being paid, or simply have no life, but you are embarassing yourself and wasting everyone's time.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,930
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Sorry to say, but you have an agenda with your thread.

Lab D Veteran Member • Posts: 6,938
Very true but prepare for flaming. :)

March Of The Tripods wrote:

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

"Spanish Flyer wrote: I have both the A6000 and the A7S and I'm in the same boat as you are achieving good focus is a lottery. Don't know about other mirrorless cameras, but I'm just talking about Sony's AF crap."

"Mike_boston (thread OP) wrote: (in response to another post) That was my exact understanding of ILC vs SLR that there can't be front or back focus (ignoring LA-EAs). So for the first two weeks I was blaming myself, then I noticed that there a pattern how the camera is off by an inch or so every time it confirms focus and misses on the actual shot. That led me to run the focus chart (45 degree ruler like chart, in my case I used Jeffrey's focus chart), set the camera on a tripod, used remote ir release from cell phone all in good light and following all of the recommended settings for the test. The results were very surprising - camera missed about 40% and most of those were a in front of the center line, interestingly enough some fell behind. That led me to doubt 55/1.8, after switching it to another version, I got exactly the same result. Unfortunately, the store where I got my camera has a7ii on back order, so I couldn't swap bodies to try another one."

And finally, Keithop wrote:

I was in a similar position and returned it...

  • 1. As soon as I turned it on, there were two dead pixels on the back lcd, so it really had to go back anyway (but the question really was, whether to get another).
  • 2. I came from a7r which I hated. The hugely loud shutter bugged the hell out of me and made the whole system feel slow and obtrusive. Although the 7II is still loud, it's only JUST too loud and is a massive improvement on the 7r. I got used to it over the week.
  • 3. I found the AF very unpredictable. I'd put the centre point over an object and it would focus on something behind and lock. Well ok it had focussed, but not on what I wanted. I played around and kinda got used to how large an area it was looking at and what it would do in various situations but I was never delighted with the focus. People say it uses the a6000 af yet I found the a6000 did better in similar situations (with worse lenses)
  • 5. Battery life was awful. Sure, get another battery so not a show stopper but an irritation.
  • 7. only including usb charging in the box with a camera that expensive? seriously? Sony should include a proper battery charger.
  • 8. Most other CSCs include a base flash. I actually find popup flashes useful for fill in, but if not, they should at least include a tiny addon flash.
  • 9. Image quality was excellent and surpassed my expectations although high iso not as good as I'd have hoped for (although I'd seen reviews so knew what to expect)

The worst aspect for me is still the AF. I tried it next to an xt1 and the xt1 was better, the olympus em-1 killed it in terms of speed and accuracy."

Well, after reading much of this it's safe to say im not spending my cash there anytime soon...

There are certain facts you are not allowed to mention (according to some).  Sony focus problems, Nikon sensor dirt, etc.

To be clear the Sony cameras CAN get the focus correct. The hit rate is low compared to other cameras though and in low light it is very low. Still you will see the brand fans give those examples of where it did actually work and try to convince people it is always like that (as we know it is not).

This is why manual focus lenses are so popular as well as the SLT adapter (Which itself is generations behind what current Nikon, Canon and even Sony mirrored cameras can do).

I got rid of my NEX because of the dreaded green focus box. Sony cameras tend to throw up a large green box around most of the frame and claim the image is in focus. Usually this means it focused on the background. In the Sony forum there are many, many threads on these issues (As you found they are very well documented), and if you look the exact same people are very vocal in trying to discredit anyone who makes or agrees with those posts. Watch, they will flame us too.

 Lab D's gear list:Lab D's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Nikon D600 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4
All Bushs Fault Forum Member • Posts: 61
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

March Of The Tripods wrote:

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

Sony is not being pushed by a stable of professional photographers like Canon and Nikon are not that some well known photographers and otherwise capable photographers aren't trying to use Sony products. Sony has sort of fallen into catering to general consumers who as a group don't care as much about performance as they do about whether the camera can be stored in a shoulder bag for trips to Las Vegas and Disney World.

stevo23 Forum Pro • Posts: 20,894
Troll alert

"New Member" on Dec 31, 2014. Has an agenda constantly complaining about a certain piece of equipment. Weird name - "march of the tripods". Sounds a lot like certain other members who are no longer here.

Interesting new name, wonder what the next one will be?

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shutterbud Senior Member • Posts: 1,350
Re: Very true but prepare for flaming. :)

Lab D wrote:

.

To be clear the Sony cameras CAN get the focus correct. The hit rate is low compared to other cameras

Not with the A6000 and A7S

though and in low light it is very low.

This is true, I'll give you that. Though I believe the A7S is an exception.

Still you will see the brand fans give those examples of where it did actually work and try to convince people it is always like that (as we know it is not).

No. I have found the Sony forum to be the least fanboyish of all

This is why manual focus lenses are so popular as well as the SLT adapter (Which itself is generations behind what current Nikon, Canon and even Sony mirrored cameras can do).

No. It is due to Sony's lack of lenses so far, which is a genuine weak spot.

I got rid of my NEX because of the dreaded green focus box. Sony cameras tend to throw up a large green box around most of the frame and claim the image is in focus....

....if you don't know how to operate the camera!

Usually this means it focused on the background. In the Sony forum there are many, many threads on these issues (As you found they are very well documented), and if you look the exact same people are very vocal in trying to discredit anyone who makes or agrees with those posts. Watch, they will flame us too.

No flame. Just correcting ignorance.

No Sony-user [Sonista?] I have read has denied the Emount system is in in its infancy and is not, at this point, for eveybody. That is an undeniable fact. Nor do we pile-on the misinformation about "rival" brands. I take this as a sign of maturity sadly lacking in a small percentage of the users of other brands.

zxaar Veteran Member • Posts: 4,345
Re: Very true but prepare for flaming. :)

Lab D wrote:

March Of The Tripods wrote:

Would be nice to have FF, and for the times when I don't need sports AF. But accuracy is important, and so is not having to wait forever in lower light. Then I read THIS thread, and it seems the A7/II owners are sweeping a lot under the rug to save face. Here are a few posts from that thread, pretty crazy stuff.

"Spanish Flyer wrote: I have both the A6000 and the A7S and I'm in the same boat as you are achieving good focus is a lottery. Don't know about other mirrorless cameras, but I'm just talking about Sony's AF crap."

"Mike_boston (thread OP) wrote: (in response to another post) That was my exact understanding of ILC vs SLR that there can't be front or back focus (ignoring LA-EAs). So for the first two weeks I was blaming myself, then I noticed that there a pattern how the camera is off by an inch or so every time it confirms focus and misses on the actual shot. That led me to run the focus chart (45 degree ruler like chart, in my case I used Jeffrey's focus chart), set the camera on a tripod, used remote ir release from cell phone all in good light and following all of the recommended settings for the test. The results were very surprising - camera missed about 40% and most of those were a in front of the center line, interestingly enough some fell behind. That led me to doubt 55/1.8, after switching it to another version, I got exactly the same result. Unfortunately, the store where I got my camera has a7ii on back order, so I couldn't swap bodies to try another one."

And finally, Keithop wrote:

I was in a similar position and returned it...

  • 1. As soon as I turned it on, there were two dead pixels on the back lcd, so it really had to go back anyway (but the question really was, whether to get another).
  • 2. I came from a7r which I hated. The hugely loud shutter bugged the hell out of me and made the whole system feel slow and obtrusive. Although the 7II is still loud, it's only JUST too loud and is a massive improvement on the 7r. I got used to it over the week.
  • 3. I found the AF very unpredictable. I'd put the centre point over an object and it would focus on something behind and lock. Well ok it had focussed, but not on what I wanted. I played around and kinda got used to how large an area it was looking at and what it would do in various situations but I was never delighted with the focus. People say it uses the a6000 af yet I found the a6000 did better in similar situations (with worse lenses)
  • 5. Battery life was awful. Sure, get another battery so not a show stopper but an irritation.
  • 7. only including usb charging in the box with a camera that expensive? seriously? Sony should include a proper battery charger.
  • 8. Most other CSCs include a base flash. I actually find popup flashes useful for fill in, but if not, they should at least include a tiny addon flash.
  • 9. Image quality was excellent and surpassed my expectations although high iso not as good as I'd have hoped for (although I'd seen reviews so knew what to expect)

The worst aspect for me is still the AF. I tried it next to an xt1 and the xt1 was better, the olympus em-1 killed it in terms of speed and accuracy."

Well, after reading much of this it's safe to say im not spending my cash there anytime soon...

There are certain facts you are not allowed to mention (according to some). Sony focus problems, Nikon sensor dirt, etc.

To be clear the Sony cameras CAN get the focus correct. The hit rate is low compared to other cameras though and in low light it is very low. Still you will see the brand fans give those examples of where it did actually work and try to convince people it is always like that (as we know it is not).

This is why manual focus lenses are so popular as well as the SLT adapter (Which itself is generations behind what current Nikon, Canon and even Sony mirrored cameras can do).

I got rid of my NEX because of the dreaded green focus box. Sony cameras tend to throw up a large green box around most of the frame and claim the image is in focus. Usually this means it focused on the background. In the Sony forum there are many, many threads on these issues (As you found they are very well documented), and if you look the exact same people are very vocal in trying to discredit anyone who makes or agrees with those posts. Watch, they will flame us too.

You are allowed to troll though, that is until you are banned for trolling. Here are things to take care of.

  • Bashing: Deliberately and repeatedly bashing the same brand, product or company. If you have a complaint or comment to make, make it once and make sure you have facts to support it.
  • Trolling: Deliberately antagonizing other forum users by posting 'flame bait.'

This OP was clearly a flame bait, so now if he over does it, he is gone.

-- hide signature --

::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.

quezra Veteran Member • Posts: 3,915
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

leonche64 wrote:

Wow, good thing you found that thread AFTER you had already complained about Sony on the numerous other threads. Come on, you had no interest in buying that camera.

This thread was great for a laugh.  After spending the last year bashing Sony (or as long as I've recognised his numerous banned nicknames at a minimum), he suddenly "thought" about buying Sony just before he finds a post reporting user error as his reason not to get a Sony.  Yeah uh huh. [CDAF is dead on accurate compared to DSLR, if there's a focusing accuracy problem, it's user error]

Relax MotT/OG/JH/MaxBannedAccounts, we know the one brand you consistently bash (whether SLT, E-mount, or RX) is Sony.  It's ok.  You are allowed to be prejudiced, no one is going to shoot you over your bias.

 quezra's gear list:quezra's gear list
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M43 Dude
M43 Dude Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

CDAF still has its issues though the Panasonic GH4, seem to be an exception to the rule its focus tracking is as fast as the OM-D without having PDAF.

The A7S and OM-D have hybrid sensors, where previously, point a CDAF camera at a blue sky on a clear day and see what happens... No contrast? No focus, the same deal at night. This issue plagues the A7 and A7R, it's just crap for focusing without contrast. This is why phase detection is being used as a work around, if CDAF was so great we wouldn't have hybrid sensors, the A7s, the OM-D, the A6000, and many others. These resolve the sensor issue.

As for "camera phone quality" you're having a laugh, Micro Four Thirds is good enough, and it fits in your pocket. Well, my E-PL5 did with a 20mm pancake, try that for size with a larger camera and you run into serious issues.

The back focusing issue is one thing with Sony, the lack of a fast AF is another issue, the lack of lenses is the final issue that breaks the camels back. You can use adapters but say goodbye to your already slow auto focus speed.

 M43 Dude's gear list:M43 Dude's gear list
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gloaming Veteran Member • Posts: 3,859
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.*

-Julius Caesar

"The people gladly believe what they WISH to."*

*  EmphASSis mine.

gloaming Veteran Member • Posts: 3,859
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Or, if you'd like something more modern, but still expressing the same sentiment:

"Belief is convenient."

-gloaming

nikonson Regular Member • Posts: 367
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

The A7 has something called Flexible Spot Focus mode where the size of the "spot" can be chosen (Small, Medium, Large) and the spot's location can also be chosen as well.

I don't know if the people who had AF problem using their A7x knew about that because it was not mentioned.

Their AF problem could also be with the lens that they mounted on the A7. I don't know what lens they used for their test, but the A7 also has "micro focus adjustment" to adapt unknown AF lenses for good use.

Sandy Senior Member • Posts: 2,155
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

M43 Dude wrote:

The A7S and OM-D have hybrid sensors, where previously, point a CDAF camera at a blue sky on a clear day and see what happens... No contrast? No focus, the same deal at night. This issue plagues the A7 and A7R, it's just crap for focusing without contrast. This is why phase detection is being used as a work around, if CDAF was so great we wouldn't have hybrid sensors, the A7s, the OM-D, the A6000, and many others. These resolve the sensor issue.

My understanding is that both phase and contrast detection depend on contrast ie whatever your camera, no contrast = no focus.

nb some Sony cameras (such as the A77 and A77II) have focus peaking which tells you on what the lens is actually focusing, with DMF and the ability to select an enlarged the area there are the tools to do the job.  I know I don't have any complaints with my A77II but I have not used any of the E mount cameras and haven't checked what of the above tools exist in them.

-- hide signature --

Sandy

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M43 Dude
M43 Dude Senior Member • Posts: 1,464
Re: Thought about buying an A7, then i read this thread and ran the other direction...

Yes although PDAF sensors seem to improve that experience a fair amount, so say of that what you will as a generalisation.

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