Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Started Jan 27, 2015 | Questions
Rutgerbus Senior Member • Posts: 2,211
Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!
5

There must be people on this forum which also bought and use the Star Adventurer. So I thought I'll ask a question about polar alignment.

I'll try to make things a bit clearer for those who don't have the tracker with the (quick) drawing below.

First of all, I believe that the Star Adventurer's polarscope is both horizontally- and vertically mirrored. This means that North = South and West = East (correct me when I'm wrong)

When using a normal (non-mirrored) polarscope and the "Kochab's Clock" rule this means that, when a line (the red line in the drawing) is drawn from Polaris to Kochab the true North Pole (marked with a red X) is at ~5 O'clock in the reticle of your polarscope.

So, does this mean, with the double mirrored view of the Star Adventurers polarscope, that I have to put Polaris at the position of ther Green X or the Purple X???? Or do I just have to place it at ~7 O'clock next to the blue X.

So basically, where do I put Polaris on the reticle of the Star Adventures Polar Scope when the Little Dipper is positioned in the sky as depicted below.

Your help would be tremendously appriciated.

I allready got some nice results with Star Adventurer at 420mm and 100sec exposure meaning that I'm doing something right, but just to be sure I'll ask "the experts" here on this forum.

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W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

I'm so glad you asked this as it dawned on me last night that the polar scope is mirrored at least horizontally (East and West). I haven't really paid enough attention to see if it is mirrored vertically too. But it occurred to me last night that might be backwards. I too have had luck with the tracking, but I do think I'm a bit off though. I guess the worse we would be off by mirroring is 3/4° so maybe that isn't so noticeable in 1 minute subs. But I do notice that my stars are drifting and a predictable diagonal over time. So I too want to know how we should do this. BTW, that manual the Star Adventurer came with sucks!

Let me take a different approach to showing what I do. The image below is from an app I use to get polar alignment and notice both vertical and horizontal flip are turned off. I know the polar scope at least does a horz. flip. I've been placing Polaris on my scope ring exactly as shown in the app screenshot, but I'm thinking that is incorrect. Should it be flipped?

BTW, in this particular instance Kochab is in the direction from polaris indicated by the dashed line running from Polaris to the scope center. In other words, Kochab lies below and left of Polaris.

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astrodad1 Contributing Member • Posts: 712
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

I can't help you with your question, but your image turned out good.   Looking forward to more successes.

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Thanks,
David
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bidule5 Regular Member • Posts: 115
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Look thru your polar scope at some terrestrial object. if (like in mine) it is 180 degree rotated and polaris is at 11 o'clock from true N, center it at 5.

yvan

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gvk Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

If Ursa Minor is visually oriented as shown in your diagram, then Polaris has recently passed upper culmination, and its local hour angle will be around 1 hr or so. Due to the inversions in the finder scope when Polaris is at upper culmination it will appear at the 6 position in the scope. Thus you would measure its local hour angle counter clockwise from 6 to the blue cross shown on your circle.

The Takahashi web calculator link below, or the equivalent iPhone app, will show the correct location for Polaris, including inversion, if you fill in your local time and longitude.

http://www.trutek-uk.com/takahashi/polarisfinder1-2en.htm

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Gerry

W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

gvk wrote:

If Ursa Minor is visually oriented as shown in your diagram, then Polaris has recently passed upper culmination, and its local hour angle will be around 1 hr or so. Due to the inversions in the finder scope when Polaris is at upper culmination it will appear at the 6 position in the scope. Thus you would measure its local hour angle counter clockwise from 6 to the blue cross shown on your circle.

The Takahashi web calculator link below, or the equivalent iPhone app, will show the correct location for Polaris, including inversion, if you fill in your local time and longitude.

http://www.trutek-uk.com/takahashi/polarisfinder1-2en.htm

Assuming I read the instructions on that page correctly and thus entered a positive longitude for my location in the USA, then it shows what my app shows when both vertical and horizontal axis are flipped. But I get star trails at 60 sec shutter when I align that way. Most inputs equire a negative longitude in the USA, so maybe I'm misinterpreting the instructions.

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Jack Swinden
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RustierOne
RustierOne Veteran Member • Posts: 4,314
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Rutgerbus wrote:

There must be people on this forum which also bought and use the Star Adventurer. So I thought I'll ask a question about polar alignment.

I'll try to make things a bit clearer for those who don't have the tracker with the (quick) drawing below.

First of all, I believe that the Star Adventurer's polarscope is both horizontally- and vertically mirrored. This means that North = South and West = East (correct me when I'm wrong)

The field of view has been rotated, but not mirrored. Here's why (bear with me):

There are basically two types of images:

  • Correct image having an even number of reflections (0,2,4, etc.)
  • Mirror image having an odd number of reflections (1,3,5, etc.)

Now a correct image may be upside down, but upside down is not necessarily a mirror image. You just need to count the number of reflections in the telescope (primary, secondary, diagonal mirror, star diagonal etc). If there is an even number that means you've got a correct image. An odd number means it is a mirror image. Unless your polar scope has a right-angle mirror, it's likely not producing a mirror image. Upside down maybe, but not mirrored.

An correct image (viewing the sky in the northern hemisphere) has the following directions:

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N

- E W

-- S

North is up, South is down,East is to the left, West to the right. You might think I've got East & West backwards. But we're not looking down at a map, but looking up at the sky.

An upside down, image is just rotated:

-- S

- W E

-- N

It looks like it has been mirrored both E - W and N - S. But it has only been rotated 180°, not mirrored.

Another way of telling if your telescope's view is a mirror image is to observe some printed matter. Ignore whether it may be upside down. What matters is "are the letters are readable" (even if you need to stand on your head). If they readable, it's not a mirror image.

A couple of examples:

  • Newtonian reflector telescope (2 mirrors - primary and secondary) - correct image
  • Refractor with right angle star diagonal (1 mirror) - mirror image
  • Refractor without right angle diagonal (no mirrors) - correct image
  • SCT telescope with star diagonal (3 mirrors - primary, secondary, diagonal) - mirror image
  • SCT telescope without star diagonal ( 2 mirrors) - correct image

When using a normal (non-mirrored) polarscope and the "Kochab's Clock" rule this means that, when a line (the red line in the drawing) is drawn from Polaris to Kochab the true North Pole (marked with a red X) is at ~5 O'clock in the reticle of your polarscope.

Determining Directions in the Polar Scope:

What I would do is while looking at any star through the polar scope, tip the polar axle down (using the mount's altitude adjustment). The direction that the observed star moves is equivalent to the up direction in the sky. In other words as you point the polar scope downward, stars will enter the field of view from the down side of the field of view. Conversely stars will exit the field of view in the direction corresponding to the up direction in the sky.

Now I don't know what you are going to find as to directions in the polar scope's field of view. But for example, suppose you found that down in the sky corresponds to up in your polar scope's field of view. Now according to the chart, you want the tracker's axis to be below Polaris. So using your mount's altitude adjustment screw, Polaris would need to be moved down in the field of view (which is up in the sky), which is equivalent to the tracker's axis being moved down in the sky (up in your field of view).

So, does this mean, with the double mirrored view of the Star Adventurers polarscope, that I have to put Polaris at the position of ther Green X or the Purple X???? Or do I just have to place it at ~7 O'clock next to the blue X.

So basically, where do I put Polaris on the reticle of the Star Adventures Polar Scope when the Little Dipper is positioned in the sky as depicted below.

Your help would be tremendously appriciated.

I hope my attempt at explanation has been helpful and not too confusing.

I allready got some nice results with Star Adventurer at 420mm and 100sec exposure meaning that I'm doing something right, but just to be sure I'll ask "the experts" here on this forum.

That's an excellent shot of M42/43 (Orion Nebula) and the NGC 1973-1975-1977 complex (Running Man Nebula). The latter is one the brightest reflection nebulae in the sky. You've captured both of these groups quite well.

--
Best Regards,
Russ

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OP Rutgerbus Senior Member • Posts: 2,211
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

W5JCK wrote:


What is the name of the App Jack? Can it also be used for android systems?

And yes, the manual that came with the star adventurer sucs

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gvk Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

There are no mirrors in the polar finder scope of the Star Adventurer. The image is rotated 180 degrees, or equivalently reflected across both axes. To move the position of Polaris in the finder your always have to physically turn the scope in the opposite direction using the altitude or azimuth knobs.

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Gerry

W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Rutgerbus wrote:

W5JCK wrote:

What is the name of the App Jack? Can it also be used for android systems?

And yes, the manual that came with the star adventurer sucs

The app is called Scope Help. It was free. I'm not sure if it is available for Android, but I bet there is one. It seems accurate. I created a circular FOV indicator for Starry Night Pro 7 that has a 0.75° radius and is aligned with true north and uses my latitude for elevation at the center. I then turn on the stick figures for constellations. This gives me a good idea of how to align. Anyway, that matched this Scope Help app in accuracy. BTW, from my location building are to my north and I can barely see Polaris 1° or 2° above the roof of the three story building.

And for everyone else, yes I know the image is rotated 180°. However, if you mirror an image along both the vertical and horizontal axis you get the same exact rotated view, hence why I was using the term mirror. We were on the same page but using different terminology.

I will test out the proper alignment soon and see if that fixes the drift I was getting over time. I suspect it will.

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Jack Swinden
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OP Rutgerbus Senior Member • Posts: 2,211
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Looking forward to your findings.
--
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W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

Rutgerbus wrote:

Looking forward to your findings.
--
www.rutgerbus.nl
Photographic Moments
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There are more details in the thread I started, but suffice it to say my test was disappointing. I've checked the polar alignment scope calibration per the manual and it seems well calibrated. But no matter where I place Polaris along the scope ring the tracking seems to be about the same. I get drifting over long time periods and I get slightly elongated stars at 60 sec with 200-400mm lenses. So frustrating.

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Jack Swinden
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ragnarr New Member • Posts: 4
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!
1

W5JCK,

I use a different polar alignment tool PolarAlign for iOS.  I use the 'corrected' view.  I'm able to take 240-sec exposures @ 300mm f/2.8 (using a Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 VR lens) with my D800.  I think total weight is around 8-kg.

The polar finder works pretty good on my particular model.

DDWD10
DDWD10 Contributing Member • Posts: 836
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

ragnarr wrote:

W5JCK,

I use a different polar alignment tool PolarAlign for iOS. I use the 'corrected' view. I'm able to take 240-sec exposures @ 300mm f/2.8 (using a Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 VR lens) with my D800. I think total weight is around 8-kg.

The polar finder works pretty good on my particular model.

Total n00b question here, but on these polar aligning apps there is a 24-hour/segment circle while the Star Adventurer scope has 12.  What is the correct way to reconcile this difference when aligning?

Last night I took my first round of >30 sec exposures courtesy of an external intervalometer/timer that finally arrived... 2 minutes at 200mm on my K-5 IIs.  Nearly all of them had streaking, though maybe 1/5 were pin-sharp.  I'm not sure whether I should chalk it up to alignment error or the fact that my tripod was on a gravelly-grassy surface on the side of the road.

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W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

DDWD10 wrote:

ragnarr wrote:

W5JCK,

I use a different polar alignment tool PolarAlign for iOS. I use the 'corrected' view. I'm able to take 240-sec exposures @ 300mm f/2.8 (using a Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 VR lens) with my D800. I think total weight is around 8-kg.

The polar finder works pretty good on my particular model.

Total n00b question here, but on these polar aligning apps there is a 24-hour/segment circle while the Star Adventurer scope has 12. What is the correct way to reconcile this difference when aligning?

Last night I took my first round of >30 sec exposures courtesy of an external intervalometer/timer that finally arrived... 2 minutes at 200mm on my K-5 IIs. Nearly all of them had streaking, though maybe 1/5 were pin-sharp. I'm not sure whether I should chalk it up to alignment error or the fact that my tripod was on a gravelly-grassy surface on the side of the road.

I found that tracking requires a very stable and heavy tripod. If you mount the Star Adventurer on a typical camera tripod, expect lots of movement. I also notice a lot of movement with large, heavy, long lenses. If you turn on liveview mode and focus magnifier and you see stars bouncing around the LCD, then you are going to have issues. Basically, any movement anywhere in the tripod, camera, lens systems is going to cause issues. Tighten down all connections, use a stable tripod, and hope for the best. I'm currently trying to figure out a reasonable way to stabilize my bigger lenses to my cameras where there is not as much movement. Big lenses tend to move around a lot on camera mounts and within their own body. Zooms are worse than primes at moving about due to more movable parts.

With my Star Adventurer I find that smaller lenses with shorter FL in the UWA and WA area up to about 50mm do pretty well at 2 minute exposures and even longer exposures. The longer the FL the shorter the shutter length has to be. By the time I get to 400mm I am lucky to get one 60 sec usable image out of 5. Just too much vibration for such a small tracking mount.

As far as alignment goes, use the inverted views in the apps, that is, 180° rotation. The polar alignment scope is showing a 180° rotated view. I just ignore all the little marking on my scope as they are very difficult to see anyway and just try to estimate where Polaris should sit on the ring and place it there. The Star Adventurers polar alignment scope is not very easy to see through and I have to constantly move my head around to see Polaris. I either see Polaris or the scope ring, rarely both at the same time. So I rock my head back and forth slightly to overlay Polaris on the scope ring. It is a PITA, but then again I spent only about $400 on the tracking mount so I got what I paid for.

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Jack Swinden
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DDWD10
DDWD10 Contributing Member • Posts: 836
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

I'm using an Oben AC-2361 Tripod and BE-117 Ball Head on the Star Adventurer (which is mounted on the Sky-Watcher Equatorial Wedge), but I just now ordered the Dec Bracket for the Star Adventurer that will allow me to use the polar scope with the camera mounted. This should help too. It seems that I won't need the Ball Head any more with the Dec Bracket, since I can just use the two slip clutches (one on SA, one on Dec Bracket) to rotate the camera around to whatever I am trying to photograph. Please correct me if I'm understanding this wrong.

The Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 is a fairly hefty lens. Next time I might use my Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 for wider shots and see if I can get accurate tracking at 4-5 minutes.

I also ordered the Oben "Tripod Hammock", which attaches under the tripod and provides a pouch to set rocks, weights etc on to help stabilize the tripod. Hopefully between this, the Dec Bracket (for alignment with camera on) and use of the 85mm for longer exposures, I'll get the results I've been after!

Just to clarify - if the PolarAlign app says to position Polaris at 4/24, should I position it at 4/12 as viewed on my Polar Scope or 2/12? As mentioned by another poster above, I am using the "Corrected View" orientation on the app.

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gvk Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

The Earth's rotation moves Polaris around the pole (almost) once a day. So Polaris rotates about 90 degrees in 6 hours. If the polar scope, like the Star Adventurer, only has 3 hour marks (similar to a clock) in 90 degrees, then you have to divide the local hour angle of Polaris by 2 to get its correct position on the circle.

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Gerry

DDWD10
DDWD10 Contributing Member • Posts: 836
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

gvk wrote:

The Earth's rotation moves Polaris around the pole (almost) once a day. So Polaris rotates about 90 degrees in 6 hours. If the polar scope, like the Star Adventurer, only has 3 hour marks (similar to a clock) in 90 degrees, then you have to divide the local hour angle of Polaris by 2 to get its correct position on the circle.

Ah, perfect. I will keep this in mind for next time.

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W5JCK
W5JCK Veteran Member • Posts: 3,199
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

DDWD10 wrote:

I'm using an Oben AC-2361 Tripod and BE-117 Ball Head on the Star Adventurer (which is mounted on the Sky-Watcher Equatorial Wedge), but I just now ordered the Dec Bracket for the Star Adventurer that will allow me to use the polar scope with the camera mounted. This should help too. It seems that I won't need the Ball Head any more with the Dec Bracket, since I can just use the two slip clutches (one on SA, one on Dec Bracket) to rotate the camera around to whatever I am trying to photograph. Please correct me if I'm understanding this wrong.

The Tamron 70-200mm f/2.8 is a fairly hefty lens. Next time I might use my Rokinon 85mm f/1.4 for wider shots and see if I can get accurate tracking at 4-5 minutes.

I also ordered the Oben "Tripod Hammock", which attaches under the tripod and provides a pouch to set rocks, weights etc on to help stabilize the tripod. Hopefully between this, the Dec Bracket (for alignment with camera on) and use of the 85mm for longer exposures, I'll get the results I've been after!

Just to clarify - if the PolarAlign app says to position Polaris at 4/24, should I position it at 4/12 as viewed on my Polar Scope or 2/12? As mentioned by another poster above, I am using the "Corrected View" orientation on the app.

I had all sorts of vibration issues when using a lightweight camera tripod like that. When I got a heavy and very stable Celestron tripod many of the vibration issues went away. Hanging weights on that little tripod will help, but they won't totally solve the vibration issues caused by the tripod being shaky and minimal for such use.

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RustierOne
RustierOne Veteran Member • Posts: 4,314
Re: Sky-Watcher Star Adventurer question!

I would agree with what others have said. I would just add looking at the above photo there is a lot of weight (full-sized DSLR and telephoto lens) and a long lever arm all hanging off some fairly flimsy connections. Starting with the tripod which is made to carry a camera for normal daytime exposures, each connection to the next one leaves room for slight flexure. Tripod to tracker and tracker to camera connections are not robust. While they are certainly strong enough for normal use, astrophotography is not normal. It places extreme demands on everything staying exactly aligned with the stars you are photographing. The slightest flexing or vibration will spoil the shot - the stars will no longer look like points. A slight wind or even you moving during the exposure can affect the pointing of your camera. Longer focal lengths and exposures make for more problems in these areas.

The fact that one in five shots had pin sharp stars (at 2 minutes with 200 mm) tells me that your polar alignment was good. If it wasn't, none of your shots would be good.

I would suggest starting with shorter focal lengths and shorter exposures to see what works to get an increased rate of acceptable images. Work on correcting weak points in the entire assembly carrying your camera. Adding weight under the tripod will help. But Jack's experience tells us that ultimately the tripod itself may be one of the weak links.

When setting up on grass or gravel, I would try removing as much loose material (sticks, loose grass, gravel, etc.) under each tripod leg. Then grab each tripod leg separately and push it firmly down onto the base material. When that has been done, press down on the top of the tripod platform with a slight vibrating motion to firmly set the legs in contact with the base. Then begin assembling the rest of your equipment on the tripod without upsetting the firm base you have established.

It looks like you have a nice rural location for your photography. I hope you are successful in your endeavors!

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Best Regards,
Russ

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