A new rebel is coming. How will it be better than the last?

MaxCh wrote:

technic wrote:

First of all, I don't think all Rebels are aimed at absolute beginners, if only because of pretty big price differences. I don't follow all the model numbers, but the 1100/1200D sure is a beginners camera. The higher up Rebel models have far more features and are (in general) less suitable for beginners.

I think most reviews treat Rebels as aimed for beginners, however Rebel considers t5 as "Perfect for families, budding photo enthusiasts and first-time SLR users alike". Personally, I doubt many "budding photo enthusiasts" are going to get the new Rebel.

The current Canon mirrorless cameras are not an alternative IMHO at their present very-non-pro stage. Alternatives like Sony A7 series (with ones existing Canon lenses) can be an upgrade option, but they are not suitable for action and I would not even use them for family pictures because of the AF limitations. So these are 'niche upgrades' that only work for specific applications like landscape, architecture, studio photography.

I have never owned Sony cameras, however the latest Sony mirrorless cameras like a6000 have very fast AF and, according to many reviews, perform very well in action. In fact, there have been many discussion in 70D where a6000 was compared with 7d2!

the same claims are made by owners of FZ1000, Samsung NX1 etc. and I simply don't believe them. These ILC camera's may be 'faster' to AF than 7D2 or 1Dx in very specific, easy, conditions but not in general and certainly not in dimmer light or with fast and more erratic action.

Anyway, my point was that a Sony A7 (or A6000) becomes really slow when using Canon lenses. If I wanted Sony lenses it would be another story.

crashpc wrote:

Big size is no longer mark of being PRO. That way many people are waiting for advanced cameras, but smaller. I´d buy 70D if it was like a6000.

Agree, but I often see the opposite e.g. with wedding photographers who think they need a bigger camera than the person who hires them

I can understand that some people want a big brick because they have big hands, because their camera has to take lots of abuse, or because they want to intimidate their subjects But I'm not like that, small is beautiful!

In the seventies the Olympus OM system was a breath of fresh air and I would love to have something similar in digital form (FF sensor, very small and light, with top quality big and bright viewfinder, only the essential controls and high quality compact lenses). I don't doubt it is possible but just like with cars, it almost seems like DSLRs have to gain weight and tons of useless features with every generation. The SL1 and 6D were a step in the right direction but a bit too much 'dumbed-down' for my taste (dumbed down in things like AF capabilities or lack of a tilt screen). Sony A7 is also a step in the right direction, but they fail to deliver with lenses and the EVF isn't yet a full alternative to OVF.

Last night I was too tired to research whether all of the Rebels were considered entry level DSLR cameras by Canon. I checked the Canon USA website this morning.

The Canon T5i (700D) camera is mentioned there for "photo enthusiasts" and is called the "flagship of the spectacular Rebel line". The Canon T3i (600D) is noted as a camera "that will help them create their next masterpiece" which "offers the best of EOS photography in a compact package". The Canon T5 (1200D) camera is described as "perfect for families, budding photo enthusiasts and first-time SLR users alike". I think the intent of Canon is to market the Canon T5 (1200D) camera as an entry level DSLR camera but not all of their Rebels just by reading those description alone (without doing any more research).

Digirame wrote:

Does Canon market all Rebels as entry level?

The Canon UK web site has models neatly broken down into categories. The 700D (T5i) is listed under "EOS Cameras for Beginners". "EOS for Enthusiasts" starts at the 60D. "EOS fro Professionals" includes the 5D Mark III.

R2D2 wrote:

Move on up to the "i" class and you get all this back, and you really find yourself with a very capable camera. Heck, I shot with the T4i exclusively for a year and hardly missed a beat (coming from the 50D).

There are certainly a large number of folks here clamoring for an even more capable offering in this Rebel form factor, and would likely jump on a new Rebel if Canon were to simply add MFA and a deeper RAW buffer (the two things I missed most from the xxD series).

Question is would they also see fit to pay Canon's premium for these features, since Canon heretofore has always reserved them for the yet more capable xxD line, and any narrowing of the performance gap would naturally also mean a commensurate narrowing of the price gap.

agree this is a potential issue, and it probably varies strongly by region (country) just like with acceptance of ILC cameras. But currently better IQ and more performance is strongly tied to bigger, heavier bodies and it doesn't need to be like that. In fact, mirrorless shows that at least some users will pay premium price for a smaller, lighter and also more capable camera.

Now for those looking for all of the goodies from the xxD line to be accomodated into a form factor nice and small like the current Rebel, well it can't physically be done of course. A larger viewfinder means a physically larger body. More buttons/thumbwheel for increased control would mean a physically larger body. A larger grip/better balance would mean a physically larger body. All of these hallmarks that distinguish an xxD body simply require a physically larger body.

The viewfinder in a compact DSLR can be pentamirror instead of a pentaprism which most of all means less brightness - not a problem IMHO is the AF is accurate. Most xxD bodies haven't very accurate OVF focusing either, the standard screen isn't optimal for that and much worse than the screens on the better analog SLRs. But I doubt is HAS to be like that, my old OM2 had a big ('FF') and excellent quality viewfinder in a body that was smaller and lighter than current xxD cameras...

More controls on a small camera is a problem indeed and something has to give. I would gladly give up some buttons for smaller size. Also, if a tilt/touch screen is used many control buttons are no longer required. And even if you look at grips, it sure isn't the case that the biggest cameras have the best grips and best ergonomics, it strongly varies and no grip is optimal for everyone. If the camera gets really small an add-on grip could be an option (e.g. for when you need to use big lenses).

And IMHO Canon will never come out with two different cameras with identical feature sets, differentiated only by size. It's just not their way. Mind you, I'd love to see it personally. But I'm not holding my breath, and I'm certainly not going to forgo all of the benefits of the current technology by waiting for it.

I think there is plenty of room in the current lineup for a very compact, light and highly capable body for those who work hand-held, need to travel light etc. Not just a scaled-down 5D3 or 1DX of course, that would not make sense. These small/light bodies are for a different type of photographer, with other priorities than those who buy the tough 'action' cameras like 5D3/1DX. There is plenty of room for differentiation.

I think that's a mistake to list the Canon T5i (700D) camera as a "beginner". So many of us have been taking photos longer than we care to mention and we are hardly beginners; I never considered all of the Rebels as "beginners". We use the (non-entry level) Rebels because they are more affordable, relatively lightweight but are advanced enough for us "enthusiasts". The Canon USA website describes this differently as I've shown.

I consider the non-entry level (current) Rebels as anything other than the Canon T3 (1100D) and Canon T5 (1200D) cameras. For the Rebels using the term "affordable/compact" in my opinion would be a better way to describe it other than "beginner".

The Canon T3i (600D) camera gives me great-looking photos at an affordable price and is relatively lightweight.

R2D2 wrote:

Agree with you 100% on this Technic. (Except for the part about xxD AF, as I do currently get extraordinary AF from my 70D). Not that there isn't any room for improvement there - but it's been getting better and better with every new body.

The AF system from the 70D would probably be fine for me assuming it works; I don't need 7D2 level AF. However, if a camera is expensive (like $2000-$4000) I also expect a good AF system with at least decent tracking capabilities etc., not with basically one good AF point like in the 6D.

My problem is that I have seen too many posts of people who have AF problems with 70D, including several experienced users and some of it sounds like the same problems I'm seeing with my old Rebel, and I don't want to repeat that experience. Btw, there are quite some complaints about 7D2 AF as well, so maybe these AF systems are getting too complicated to setup, or too sensitive to manufacturing tolerances or environmental factors, or maybe expectations for PD-AF are simply becoming too high because of higher resolution sensors

Digirame wrote:

I think that's a mistake to list the Canon T5i (700D) camera as a "beginner".

I suspect that Canon UK doesn't want first-time DSLR buyers to think that the 700D is "too good for them".

Canon USA shows the T5i in a television commercial, so I suspect that they also want it to be seen as a "for everyone DSLR", rather than something that is only for enthusiasts.

Anyway, it's about marketing - not about the camera's (excellent) capabilities.

Oilman wrote:

thanks for the informative reply

First off - image quality: In good light there is very little difference in image quality between the 450 and the 7D. That is not true however, for the 5D3 along with the 24-70 F2.8 lens. Pictures are far sharper than with either the 450 or the 7D with a comparable lens –the 17-55mm F2.8.

agree, that's why my plan was to move to a Canon FF body instead of a better APS-C body; it gives much bigger jump in IQ. But I don't like the currently available Canon FF bodies, the 5D3 is not my taste.

But image quality is not all there is to the equation. I do a lot of bird shooting and the 450 is really not very suited for that task. The AF was painfully slow and the buffer filled after only a few shots in RAW (I never shoot JPGs) Out of 20 BIF shots, I was lucky to get one keeper. Using the 7D is like night and day. The AF is blindingly fast and I can shoot as many shots as I like on high speed continuous. Now I am deleting keepers because I have too many. That is not to say you can’t get good BIF shots with an xxD. Many people do. But the 7D makes it much easier.

I agree, one of my subjects is DIF (flying dragonflies) and the AF of my 450D is useless for that unless they are hovering. But I can get pretty good shots using MF, and I haven't seen anyone who gets good quality DIF shots using AF (with good percentage of keepers). They just move too erratic and the angular velocity is too fast for the tracking. Would love to try if the 7D2 is better than MF, but again not my taste of camera because of weight and lack of tilt screen.

Obviously, a faster camera would help me but 8 instead of 4 images would probably not be a major game changer - if I want really high speed it would make more sense to chose something like a Panasonic FZ1000 that can shoot 30 fps at 8 MP resolution (and accept the lower IQ).

The 7D is my preferred body for long range wildlife photography in good light. The 5D3 is for everything else. The low light performance of the 450 sucked. Maximum ISO was 1600. The 7D is not much better. You can shoot at higher ISO’s but the shots are very noisy.

Agree, and even the 7D2 isn't much better than 7D. With my 450D 800 ISO (RAW) is the max for decent quality, judging from 7D2 shots I have seen 1600 ISO is the max there, maybe a bit more with good noise removal software. Anything higher and IQ is starting to suffer.

Add in the better overall image a quality and having a full size sensor make a huge difference. Low light performance has improved with recent Rebels but it is nowhere near the performance of the 5D3

FF definitely is better, but of course there is a catch: you need a longer, heavier and far more expensive lens for the same result, when you are 'focal length limited'.

Weight for me is a non-issue. When I head out to take photos in the bush I always carry at the very least, a tripod, my 100-400mm and one of my wide angle lenses. I commonly bring my flash as well for HSS shots. If I am bird shooting, I also take my 500mm, which by itself weighs 8.5 pounds. Add in the usual filters, and any difference in weight between the bodies is noise level. I almost always use all of the lenses in my bag. After shooting birds all day. I like to put the wide angle on and shoot the sunset. I also get s lots of opportunities to use my walk-around lens during the day. You don’t play golf with only one club and I would rather hump a couple of extra pounds than miss a lifetime shot because the lens I need is sitting at home.

Those practical factors are important indeed. I travel mostly by bike or walking and cannot carry a lot of gear. A DSLR with a macro lens and a 300 or 400 mm prime is about the max I will take. My maximum for handheld shooting is 2-3kg, so even the extra weight on a 'tougher' body counts.

I am often surprised reading about all the photographers who shoot birds or other wildlife from their car window (are they from the US, traveling in special wildlife reservations or something? I cannot imagine any wildlife in my area that one could shoot from a car window ...).

I think that if you look at Canon’s advertising, you will see the Rebel is aimed at first time DSLR buyers. I know that many owners, such as yourself, are NOT beginners, but Canon really wants to sell you a 70D or better. All cameras are seeing declining sales. The cell-phone is replacing them. But I believe that the DSLR will remain as an important niche product for the reasons that you suggest. That product will become increasingly for enthusiasts. That makes it even more important that Canon sell you an upgrade. You ALREADY own a DSLR. As an enthusiast, it is more likely that you will upgrade than simply buy another Rebel. And you will get MFA in the upgrade.

Canon can take my money if they have a more powerful, light and compact DSLR (or maybe even an ILC, with the right features). Otherwise my money will probably end up with Sony or Nikon. I would hate to give up Canon lenses, but a Nikon D750 with that new 4/300VR and a few other lenses looks quite attractive to me ...

Potemkin_Photo wrote:

WSteveP wrote:

Potemkin_Photo wrote:

just put an EVF in it

What "is" the big deal with an EVF.

I had one a while back and have no desire to have another, thanks very much.

Focus peaking and great MF through the viewfinder. Once you've experienced, you just don't want to go back.

I have no problem getting razor-sharp focus on intended subject with AF.

CSPoole wrote:

From Canon Rumors:

We’re told the embargo/NDA expires on Friday, February 6, 2015 for these upcoming products. These products would line up with the CP+ show in Japan next month.

• The two high megapixel cameras, with and without an AA filter. Resolution is said to be 53mp (though the pixel count is not CR3)
• The EOS Rebel T6i/750D.
• EF 11-24 f/4L
• EOS M3 Camera
• Various PowerShot cameras

We weren’t given any specifications for any of the cameras, just that they’d be made public at the end of next week.

We don’t know the availability of the cameras, though we had heard March for the big megapixel bodies, which we reported as the announcement date. This could in fact be the availability date.

More to come…

cr"

Thanks

CSPoole

Hopefully an EVF will be in at least one of these bodies.