Firefox/Chrome color management

Started Dec 31, 2014 | Discussions
antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Firefox/Chrome color management

Hi there,

My display is calibrated and I am noticing that Firefox does not display the colours as I can see them in Lightroom.

I have enabled the color management in Firefox but the colours still look different.

The same JPEG looks fine on the Windows photo viewer, at least it displays as in Lightroom.

Attached a screenshot, the big picture is Firefox.

Any help?

Thanks

Tony

bronxbombers4 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,387
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Is your monitor profile v4 or v2? I believe that FF needs a special hidden toggle to be set if you want it to handle v4 profiles. Older versions of FF don't support v4 at all. Some profile software creates partially broken profiles and that happens more often with v4 so sometimes one program will handle the profile and another not even if both are set to color manage and use v4.

All I can say it that color management is working fine for me with FF. (other than it, as with most programs, doesn't apply 100% black point correction the way Photoshop/LR do so you might get a trace darker shadows although not nearly as badly as with IE which doesn't correct for sRGB to gamma 2.2 on top of not doing 100% BPC).

Sadly, Chrome seems to have recently removed color-management.

Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 7,135
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management
2

bronxbombers4 wrote:

Is your monitor profile v4 or v2? I believe that FF needs a special hidden toggle to be set if you want it to handle v4 profiles. Older versions of FF don't support v4 at all. Some profile software creates partially broken profiles and that happens more often with v4 so sometimes one program will handle the profile and another not even if both are set to color manage and use v4.

All I can say it that color management is working fine for me with FF. (other than it, as with most programs, doesn't apply 100% black point correction the way Photoshop/LR do so you might get a trace darker shadows although not nearly as badly as with IE which doesn't correct for sRGB to gamma 2.2 on top of not doing 100% BPC).

Sadly, Chrome seems to have recently removed color-management.

Agreed with those suggestions. Try using v2 profiles until you've got it working. Check your calibration/profiling software for a preference setting for v2 or v4. If there's no option, it's probably creating v2 profiles (which should be OK).

In Firefox, set gfx.color_management.enablev4 to true to enable v4 handling (but I'd recommend not setting it, and using only v2 profiles). To access this setting, enter "about:config" in the URL bar on firefox. Don't set gfx.color_management.display_profile (leave it blank - Firefox will then use the default system monitor profile).

If you have a wide-gamut monitor, then also set gfx.color_management.mode to 1. This makes Firefox colour-manage untagged graphic elements (assuming them to be sRGB). Otherwise elements other than images will look oversaturated. Firefox is the only browser that can do this and is (IMHO) the only browser that is usuable on a wide-gamut monitor for this reason. Safari is a distant second place, and neither Chrome nor IE colour manage properly (as bronxbombers4 says, Chrome use to be colour-managed, but they've broken it).

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Simon

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OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Thank you guys for your help!

I do have a wide-gamut monitor indeed. I have set FF to handle V4 profiles and to apply calibration to all images and I don't have a profile set. If I visit one of those websites that checks the ICC capabilities, it says I can handle V2 and V4.

Here are my settings

To calibrate I use DispcalGUI which is based on ArgyllCMS, the developers are on AVS, I am asking their help as well, I'll report what you suggested.

I'll try disabling V4 and also I'll try to find out whether my profiles are V2 or V4.

HCFR developer suggested to leave it on though, I'm quoting:

So a display profile is installed & active in Windows? What's the gfx.color_management.enablev4 setting set to in Firefox (should be true not only for v4 support but also LUT profile support, although it may impact rendering performance)?

If I open the same JPG in both Chrome and Firefox, the result is identical. My Firefox is auto-updating, I'm on 34.

Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 7,135
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Thank you guys for your help!

I do have a wide-gamut monitor indeed. I have set FF to handle V4 profiles and to apply calibration to all images and I don't have a profile set. If I visit one of those websites that checks the ICC capabilities, it says I can handle V2 and V4.

Take the results of such test sites with a bit of caution. I've found sometimes the results can be misleading, telling you that your system supports some aspects of whatever it's testing. For example, the test page on the ICC site (http://color.org/version4html.xalter) will tell you that Internet Explorer is fully colour managed and supports v4 profiles. I don't know if it supports v4 profiles, but it certainly is not fully colour managed!

Here are my settings

To calibrate I use DispcalGUI which is based on ArgyllCMS, the developers are on AVS, I am asking their help as well, I'll report what you suggested.

I'll try disabling V4 and also I'll try to find out whether my profiles are V2 or V4.

HCFR developer suggested to leave it on though, I'm quoting:

So a display profile is installed & active in Windows? What's the gfx.color_management.enablev4 setting set to in Firefox (should be true not only for v4 support but also LUT profile support, although it may impact rendering performance)?

If I open the same JPG in both Chrome and Firefox, the result is identical. My Firefox is auto-updating, I'm on 34.

I think I've read somewhere that gfx.color_management.enablev4 results in a performance hit in Firefox. It's not very well supported (and it's not documented in the mozillazine documentation). I don't understand the bit about "not only for v4 support but also LUT profile support". I don't think that's true, but I might be wrong.

However, I don't use v4 profiles as some software doesn't like them, and at the moment there's no benefit. In theory, v4 profiles allow better perceptual rendering but AFAIK no current rendering engines take advantage of this (simply reading v4 profiles and using the information in the same way as they do v2 profiles).

In particular, it's not a good idea to mix v2 and v4 profiles in the same workflow. As I understand it, you won't get any benefit from using v4 profiles for a colour space conversion unless both profiles are v4 (image profile and monitor profile, for example), but I stand to be corrected on that. So if you are going to use a v4 monitor profile, you probably need to make sure all your software is using v4 profiles. I don't think you can do that with Lightroom, for example. Lightroom previews use a v2 Adobe RGB profile. I suspect the same is true for the ProPhoto RGB used in the Develop module.

See for example http://nativedigital.co.uk/site/2013/02/icc-version-2-or-4/ .

However, even if you use v4 profiles, if you have problems it's certainly worth recalibrating to a v2 monitor profile to check if it makes any difference.

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OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Hi Simon,

Further tests lead to Firefox not being able to properly use the profile. The same picture looks fine in Photoshop and I may be inclined to believe that Adobe know better this things than Mozilla!

The developer or HCFR told me that enabling v4 on Firefox should also make use of 3Dlut, otherwise FF will only use a 1D lut profile - I'm just reporting what I was told, and what I have understood.

thanks for the word of advice about those websites, I was not aware of that.

Re. v4 ICC's, I don't know whether DispcalGUI are making v2 or v4 profiles, I can't find that mentioned in the software. I can ask the community though!

Thanks

Simon Garrett Veteran Member • Posts: 7,135
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Hi Simon,

Further tests lead to Firefox not being able to properly use the profile. The same picture looks fine in Photoshop and I may be inclined to believe that Adobe know better this things than Mozilla!

The developer or HCFR told me that enabling v4 on Firefox should also make use of 3Dlut, otherwise FF will only use a 1D lut profile - I'm just reporting what I was told, and what I have understood.

I'm sure those guys know what they're talking about, but I didn't know that.  Thanks for the info.

thanks for the word of advice about those websites, I was not aware of that.

Re. v4 ICC's, I don't know whether DispcalGUI are making v2 or v4 profiles, I can't find that mentioned in the software. I can ask the community though!

No, nor me! I was pretty sure that DispcalGUI/Argyll could produce v4 profiles, but I can find mention only of v2 on the Argyll site, so I think maybe not. I found "I plan at some stage to upgrade icclib to be compatible with the recently released ICC V4 spec., but will probably get around to this sometime after the next major release of Argyll." (http://www.argyllcms.com/icc_readme.html dated Sept 2012).  I also found one or two recent references saying Argyll is v2 only at present.

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OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

I've also had confirmation that Argyll is V2 at the moment.

I'm stuck. What's the next step?

Chrome - which now seems to use a monitor profile all the time with or without the --option - shows the same 'wrong' colours.

Pictus
Pictus Veteran Member • Posts: 6,502
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Hi Simon,

Further tests lead to Firefox not being able to properly use the profile. The same picture looks fine in Photoshop and I may be inclined to believe that Adobe know better this things than Mozilla!

Absolute yes!

You can only trust Adobe, the internet browser is only for preview...

The developer or HCFR told me that enabling v4 on Firefox should also make use of 3Dlut, otherwise FF will only use a 1D lut profile - I'm just reporting what I was told, and what I have understood.

thanks for the word of advice about those websites, I was not aware of that.

Re. v4 ICC's, I don't know whether DispcalGUI are making v2 or v4 profiles, I can't find that mentioned in the software. I can ask the community though!

Argyll is V2 only until V4 get a decent specification.(not sure if it is the right word)

What is your monitor model?

OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Dell 2709. It's a wide gamut one.

Everybody on the net says that Firefox is pretty good at color management. I don't understand why it shouldn't work for me.

Also, if I disable the color management in FF, I get perfect results when I export in AdobeRGB.

Pictus
Pictus Veteran Member • Posts: 6,502
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

I suspect that if the calibration have to change a lot from the monitor native state you may have problems like this...
Go to dispcalGUI Menu>Tools>measurement report> and test the current profile, post the results.
The results is a HTML file stored in c:\Users\Your user name\AppData\Roaming\dispcalGUI\storage\

Here my more updated tutorial for Argyll+dispcalGUI.

I have a Dell U2410 and its custom mode is broken, totally non linear...
So I set the monitor to Adobe RGB Preset mode and use the hidden factory
menu
to alter the RGB gain values from there, see.

Jim Cockfield Forum Pro • Posts: 16,342
Post a link to the original photo ;-)

Why don't you post a link to the original photo you're having problems with, versus screen captures?

That would allow members to look at it in more detail to determine behavior with their own setups using those browsers, looking at things like if the images are tagged properly with the correct color space, have the embedded profiles included, etc.

IOW, you may be some very simple issues with your export process (photos not tagged properly with the color space being used, or missing the correct embedded color profile), where you could be missing some steps in your export process.

If you don't already have a way to link to the original photos, I'd try something like dropbox (free for the first 2GB) for that purpose instead.

Just go here and download their software and install it:

http://www.dropbox.com

It will create new dropbox folders on your PC. Then, if you want someone else to see an image, just copy it to your dropbox/public folder and it will sync it to the same folders on their servers; and you can "right click" on a photo in a dropbox folder and select the menu choice to get a public link to it that you can post in a forum.

There are many other sites you can use for the same type of thing. But, some of them may strip out info like color space tags and profiles, making color seen by others more random in nature.

It also sounds like you're using Adobe RGB from previous posts (usually a very bad idea for photos you want to post to the web, unless some is using a color managed browser to view them, and the photos are tagged with the correct color space and have a valid embedded profile for the color space being used).

You should use the sRGB color space for better compatibility with more computers and browsers (as some are not color managed and default to assuming a photo is sRGB). But, you should still make sure the photos are tagged properly for sRGB with an embedded sRGB color profile).

But, Firefox should be able to render photos fine using Adobe RGB, *IF* your photos are properly tagged with that color space and have an embedded color profile included, provided Firefox color management settings are properly configured.

If you do not have photos tagged with the color space being used, and have an Embedded Color Profile for the color space being used, you should not be surprised to see a lot of problems with the way your photos are rendered in browsers (as how colors are rendered may be somewhat random in nature if you do not include those options, especially if you're not using sRGB)

IOW, your issues could be something as simple as not tagging the photos with the appropriate color space and embedding a profile for the color space being used, during your export process from the image editor you're using.

So, I'd upload one of the photos you're having issues with to a site like dropbox (or Google Drive, Microsoft OneDrive, or a similar service) so that members can see what the original image looks like in various browsers; versus relying on your screen captures to try and help troubleshoot the issues.

Your problem may be as simple as not having Firefox Color Management options setup correctly, or using a monitor profile that has issues.. But, it's more likely a problem with the photo itself not tagged properly, no embedded color profile, or similar). So, letting members here see the photo you're having problems with (posting a direct link to the problem photo, versus posting screen captures) would be a good idea to help troubleshoot the problem.

Of course, with a wide gamut display, the problems you can see would be even greater if the image is not tagged properly using an embedded profile for the color space being used.   So, again, I'd post a direct link to the original photo you're having issues with for better informed responses about where you problems may be coming from.

.--
JimC
------

OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Post a link to the original photo ;-)

Hello,

First of all, thank you for your time in helping me, I do appreciate it.

Pictus

My workflow in DispcalGUI follows your suggestions. I will run a report and post the results here. I know it was fine last time I run it though.

I am not sure what you mean with "non linear" re. the Dell. I can change RGB manually on my display, hence when DispcalGUI shows me the white patch, I adjust the controls to have the correct white. I don't use a preset, I have a RGB custom one. Doesn't your U-series have it?

Jim,

I will share the original picture and a screenshot tomorrow.

I use sRGB, I mentioned that with the colour management DISABLED in FF, only AdobeRGB pictures look fine.

I have posted a screenshot of my FF settings, here it is again:

Using "1", tagging the pictures shouldn't not make difference - assuming they're exported using sRGB of course.

But you are absolutely right, it could be something I'm doing wrong somewhere.

Thanks again for your help!!

Tony

Pictus
Pictus Veteran Member • Posts: 6,502
Re: Post a link to the original photo ;-)

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Pictus

My workflow in DispcalGUI follows your suggestions. I will run a report and post the results here. I know it was fine last time I run it though.

I am not sure what you mean with "non linear" re. the Dell. I can change RGB manually on my display, hence when DispcalGUI shows me the white patch, I adjust the controls to have the correct white. I don't use a preset, I have a RGB custom one. Doesn't your U-series have it?

It have the custom, but the calibration result is VERY BAD, that is why I calibrate
using the Adobe Preset and alter the RGB gain from the hidden factory menu.

Here the custom is also gamma 1.8 and not 2.2, does not matter the setting used
in the monitor menu... The Adobe is gamma 2.2

bronxbombers4 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,387
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Hi Simon,

Further tests lead to Firefox not being able to properly use the profile. The same picture looks fine in Photoshop and I may be inclined to believe that Adobe know better this things than Mozilla!

I use DispCal+Argyl to make my profiles and Firefox uses them without issue.

Do you have it set to LUT or to simple matrix type profiling?

David Rosser
David Rosser Veteran Member • Posts: 3,495
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

bronxbombers4 wrote:

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Hi Simon,

Further tests lead to Firefox not being able to properly use the profile. The same picture looks fine in Photoshop and I may be inclined to believe that Adobe know better this things than Mozilla!

I use DispCal+Argyl to make my profiles and Firefox uses them without issue.

Do you have it set to LUT or to simple matrix type profiling?

Important point here, if you set DispCalGui to generate LUT + matrix profiles then Firefox uses the matrix not the LUT. You can demonstrate this by generating a LUT + reverse matrix profile - Firefox will use the inverse matrix and display in weird colours.

Edit: A thought - I am not sure what happens if you only generate a L*A *B*  LUT profile does Firefox use this when it can't find a matrix?

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OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Dave,

This is a very important point, thanks. I will profile my monitor again, could you please confirm the settings I should use?

Pictus,

I'm not sure I understand. If your Dell has a native gamma of 1.8, then the profile is going to take care of that.

I do have a service menu, but I've never sorted out what it does: if I change the values on it, I don't see anything changing on the image displayed. And the first time I changed something, it then refused to go back where it was, so I gave up!

However, I feel my Dell is not bad at all. It's a wide gamut and as such it requires a calibration to properly display content. A profile is a profile, if it's applied correctly I feel it should not produce different results when using different software.

I'll let you know shortly.

Thanks

Tony

OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Post a link to the original photo ;-)
David Rosser
David Rosser Veteran Member • Posts: 3,495
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

antonio marcheselli wrote:

Dave,

This is a very important point, thanks. I will profile my monitor again, could you please confirm the settings I should use?

Pictus,

I'm not sure I understand. If your Dell has a native gamma of 1.8, then the profile is going to take care of that.

I do have a service menu, but I've never sorted out what it does: if I change the values on it, I don't see anything changing on the image displayed. And the first time I changed something, it then refused to go back where it was, so I gave up!

However, I feel my Dell is not bad at all. It's a wide gamut and as such it requires a calibration to properly display content. A profile is a profile, if it's applied correctly I feel it should not produce different results when using different software.

I'll let you know shortly.

Thanks

Tony

The settings I use when calibrating my NEC PA241W are

Tick interactive display adjustment

Colour temperature 6500K

White level custom 120 cd/m#2

Tone curve custom gamma 2.2

Profiling settings

Profile type XYZ LUT + matrix

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OP antonio marcheselli Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: Firefox/Chrome color management

Thanks Dave,

Besides the gamma (I use BT1886), I think it's what I use.

I thought you said not to use a LUT+Matrix profile?

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