Olympus abdicating entry level ILS market?

sderdiarian wrote:

007peter wrote: The entire point of Low-End isn't to make money, but to maintain growth.

Many of us begin Micro43 journey with a cheap Olympus E-PL1, E-PL2, E-M1, E-M2. It is the entry-level-camera that attract new users into the fold: hence the growth. Then later, you up-sell them to higher end advance models like EM10, EM1, GH4.

Without entry-level-camera to entice new users into the fold, M43 base will dwindling. Going premium is a profitable short-term solution, but a long term disaster in the making.

I have to agree. Name a car manufacturer that doesn't have a volume sales leader as the entry portal to their brand. Maybe Rolls Royce and Ferrari? Hardly volume leaders, but rather ultra-premium niche players, something Olympus and Panasonic clearly are not.

The arguments by some that Sony is perhaps "dumping" their 24MP a5000 at an MSRP of $500 strikes me as a stretch. I'm guessing this price was set for their volume leader model to make money, just not as much profit as their mid-tier models. That's part of a fundamental marketing strategy of getting new customers in the door and later keeping them through upgrades.

Finally, somebody understood the real economy. Sony isn't making A5000/A5100 to make a huge profit, but instead to price them Lower > Micro43 to attracted and LOCKED users into Sony E-mount. Once people buy into a system, they aren't likely to switch to another system. That is why every manufacture have an entry-level-model.

Here is the latest BCN Sales # from Japan. http://bcnranking.jp/category/subcategory_0008.html

• #1 Nikon D3300 double lens kit
• #2 Canon 700D (X7i) double lens kit
• #3 Nikon D5300 double lens kit
• #4 Canon SL1/100D/Kiss X7
• #5 Canon 700D (X7i) + 18-135mm STM kit
• #6 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Silver
• #7 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Black
• #8 Canon SL1/100D/X7 double lens kit2
• #9 Olympus e-PL6 (the only M43)
• #10 Nikon D750 + 24-120 VR kit

Not a pretty picture for Micro43.

• DSLR outsell mirrorless camera easily even in the mirrorless loving Japan
• The only M43 is an "entry-level" Olympus E-PL6 (not your high end EM1, or GH4)
• 6/10 camera in the top 10 lens are Entry-Level-Camera
• 3/10 are Mid-Range (Canon 700d + Nikon D5300 + Sony A6000)
• 1/10 are High End FF camera

2014 hasn't end yet, but here is the figure from last year.

• http://m43photo.blogspot.com/search?q=+BCN

The fall of M43 in Japan coincide with the rise of Sony.  That figure likely get worst since it doesn't factor in the sale impact of Sony A6000/A7.  I live & travel between USA and Asia frequently, and I can tell you from experience, that Sony is the only mirrorless I'm seeing in Asia now.

Now, selling cameras that were released at $1100 MSRP with kit lens for a desperation price of $599 (GX7) or a camera that was released at $749 MSRP with kit lens for $499 (GM1), that's another matter. That's more likely indicative of overly optimistic MSRP's and sales projections.

Olympus? Their release of a camera in 2014 without a built-in EVF for $699 (E-PL7) simply flies in the face of what the competition is doing and the marketplace is buying. That they have no current model to compete with the $599 24MP a6000 with EVF, or the $499 24MP a5000 without EVF is frankly startling to me. Perhaps the E-PL7's price will be reduced quickly, but that approach risks sowing distrust in their pricing by purchasers.

Exactly my point.  GM1, GX7 are all great camera, but neither one of them can compete against a Sony a6000 pricing it at just $599.  Sony has bigger sensor, better low light, better dynamic range, higher 24mp vs 16mp, and above all else, a lower price tag.  That is why Sony is selling so well, and Micro43 (gone premium niche) isn't selling well @all.

I didn't realized that GX7 was price so high @$1099.  Checking M43rumor, I can buy a brand new GX7 body for just $399 now.  Good for 1st-time buyer but bad for existing users who paid the original $1100.  Why not price the camera Lower in the beginning, instead of suffering a humiliation of massive depreciation?

This is my last post on this subject.  I speak my peace and vent my frustration.  I'm moving on.  Merry X-Mas everyone.

007peter wrote:

sderdiarian wrote:

007peter wrote: The entire point of Low-End isn't to make money, but to maintain growth.

Many of us begin Micro43 journey with a cheap Olympus E-PL1, E-PL2, E-M1, E-M2. It is the entry-level-camera that attract new users into the fold: hence the growth. Then later, you up-sell them to higher end advance models like EM10, EM1, GH4.

Without entry-level-camera to entice new users into the fold, M43 base will dwindling. Going premium is a profitable short-term solution, but a long term disaster in the making.

I have to agree. Name a car manufacturer that doesn't have a volume sales leader as the entry portal to their brand. Maybe Rolls Royce and Ferrari? Hardly volume leaders, but rather ultra-premium niche players, something Olympus and Panasonic clearly are not.

The arguments by some that Sony is perhaps "dumping" their 24MP a5000 at an MSRP of $500 strikes me as a stretch. I'm guessing this price was set for their volume leader model to make money, just not as much profit as their mid-tier models. That's part of a fundamental marketing strategy of getting new customers in the door and later keeping them through upgrades.

Finally, somebody understood the real economy. Sony isn't making A5000/A5100 to make a huge profit, but instead to price them Lower > Micro43 to attracted and LOCKED users into Sony E-mount. Once people buy into a system, they aren't likely to switch to another system. That is why every manufacture have an entry-level-model.

Here is the latest BCN Sales # from Japan. http://bcnranking.jp/category/subcategory_0008.html

• #1 Nikon D3300 double lens kit
• #2 Canon 700D (X7i) double lens kit
• #3 Nikon D5300 double lens kit
• #4 Canon SL1/100D/Kiss X7
• #5 Canon 700D (X7i) + 18-135mm STM kit
• #6 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Silver
• #7 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Black
• #8 Canon SL1/100D/X7 double lens kit2
• #9 Olympus e-PL6 (the only M43)
• #10 Nikon D750 + 24-120 VR kit

Not a pretty picture for Micro43.

• DSLR outsell mirrorless camera easily even in the mirrorless loving Japan
• The only M43 is an "entry-level" Olympus E-PL6 (not your high end EM1, or GH4)
• 6/10 camera in the top 10 lens are Entry-Level-Camera
• 3/10 are Mid-Range (Canon 700d + Nikon D5300 + Sony A6000)
• 1/10 are High End FF camera

2014 hasn't end yet, but here is the figure from last year.

• http://m43photo.blogspot.com/search?q=+BCN

The fall of M43 in Japan coincide with the rise of Sony. That figure likely get worst since it doesn't factor in the sale impact of Sony A6000/A7. I live & travel between USA and Asia frequently, and I can tell you from experience, that Sony is the only mirrorless I'm seeing in Asia now.

Now, selling cameras that were released at $1100 MSRP with kit lens for a desperation price of $599 (GX7) or a camera that was released at $749 MSRP with kit lens for $499 (GM1), that's another matter. That's more likely indicative of overly optimistic MSRP's and sales projections.

Olympus? Their release of a camera in 2014 without a built-in EVF for $699 (E-PL7) simply flies in the face of what the competition is doing and the marketplace is buying. That they have no current model to compete with the $599 24MP a6000 with EVF, or the $499 24MP a5000 without EVF is frankly startling to me. Perhaps the E-PL7's price will be reduced quickly, but that approach risks sowing distrust in their pricing by purchasers.

Exactly my point. GM1, GX7 are all great camera, but neither one of them can compete against a Sony a6000 pricing it at just $599. Sony has bigger sensor, better low light, better dynamic range, higher 24mp vs 16mp, and above all else, a lower price tag. That is why Sony is selling so well, and Micro43 (gone premium niche) isn't selling well @all.

I didn't realized that GX7 was price so high @$1099. Checking M43rumor, I can buy a brand new GX7 body for just $399 now. Good for 1st-time buyer but bad for existing users who paid the original $1100. Why not price the camera Lower in the beginning, instead of suffering a humiliation of massive depreciation?

This is my last post on this subject. I speak my peace and vent my frustration. I'm moving on. Merry X-Mas everyone.

+1. Well stated. I appreciated your observations based on what you've seen in your travels to Asia and substantiating your views with actual numbers.

I posted this thread and we've all been chiming in for the same reason: we like mFT and want Panasonic and Olympus to succeed. But to do so, in my opinion, they need to first be playing on the same ballfield as their competition when it comes to price and features.

When Olympus released the E-PL7 as their new gateway model and I saw the price and lack of a built-in EVF, my immediate reaction from a marketing standpoint was "what the heck are they thinking". $700 for an ILC without built-in EVF and a sensor 4-8 MP less than today's norm, when Sony is putting out A5000's for $500? Really?

I strongly feel their sensor MP needs to be brought up and gateway model prices made competitive to succeed. Fortunately, these are very exciting times in sensor technology in particular, so I can see Olympus and their current sensor manufacturer making strides in that area hopefully soon.

Now that 1" sensors are achieving 18-20MP (Canon G7X, Nikon V3 and J4, Panasonic FZ1000) without noticeable compromise in increased noise, it would appear these technologies could be applied to significantly larger mFT sensors.

Same for backside illuminated sensors, previously the domain of small sensors: Samsung's new flagship NX1 demonstrates with its 28MP APS-C sensor that this technology should now also be capable of being applied to smaller mFT sensors.

I'll also be curious to see how rumors on the E-M5 Mk II pan out.  They currently indicate no change in its 3 year old 16 MP Sony sensor from that of the original model, but instead  introduction of new sensor shift technology purportedly allowing a 16MP sensor to perform like a 40MP sensor.

I'd long planned to upgrade my E-M5 to a new version with all E-M10/E-M1 features brought over along with what I'd assumed, based on current industry standards, to be an entirely new 20-24 MP sensor, ideally back side illuminated. Also, very long overdue, with tracking that actually works in a mirrorless camera (look no further than the V3) for when I'm birding. Basically, my tried and true E-M5 updated to modern specs and performance.

I'll wait and see how the Mk II works out, but must admit I'm nervous about early rumors that the sensor is identical to mine, meaning no on-sensor PDAF for better tracking as in the V3, and that the higher MP's will only be available for non-action shots, thereby not meeting my needs for cropping of BIF shots.

Olympus' and Panasonic's strong suit remains their system of small but high quality and competitively priced lenses. Anyone can build a small body, but to what purpose if the lenses remain disproportionately large. Now that Panasonic has begun to adopt IBIS, this too can become an mFT strength.

It is things like their small/light lenses, IBIS, dust buster that always works, great build and great colors that have long kept me in Olympus' camp (even before mFT). But they need to advertise these advantages or they will continue to go largely unnoticed by newcomers.

They also need to be competitively priced from the get go to maintain credibility and avoid angered early purchasers who end up paying huge penalties, and to catch up with some current industry performance standards (MP, BSI, tracking ability).

We all want mFT to succeed. Hopefully Olympus and Panasonic are hard at work on at least some of the above to help do so going forward.

sderdiarian wrote:

007peter wrote: The entire point of Low-End isn't to make money, but to maintain growth.

Many of us begin Micro43 journey with a cheap Olympus E-PL1, E-PL2, E-M1, E-M2. It is the entry-level-camera that attract new users into the fold: hence the growth. Then later, you up-sell them to higher end advance models like EM10, EM1, GH4.

Without entry-level-camera to entice new users into the fold, M43 base will dwindling. Going premium is a profitable short-term solution, but a long term disaster in the making.

I have to agree. Name a car manufacturer that doesn't have a volume sales leader as the entry portal to their brand. Maybe Rolls Royce and Ferrari? Hardly volume leaders, but rather ultra-premium niche players, something Olympus and Panasonic clearly are not.

The arguments by some that Sony is perhaps "dumping" their 24MP a5000 at an MSRP of $500 strikes me as a stretch. I'm guessing this price was set for their volume leader model to make money, just not as much profit as their mid-tier models. That's part of a fundamental marketing strategy of getting new customers in the door and later keeping them through upgrades.

Finally, somebody understood the real economy. Sony isn't making A5000/A5100 to make a huge profit, but instead to price them Lower > Micro43 to attracted and LOCKED users into Sony E-mount. Once people buy into a system, they aren't likely to switch to another system. That is why every manufacture have an entry-level-model.

Here is the latest BCN Sales # from Japan. http://bcnranking.jp/category/subcategory_0008.html

• #1 Nikon D3300 double lens kit
• #2 Canon 700D (X7i) double lens kit
• #3 Nikon D5300 double lens kit
• #4 Canon SL1/100D/Kiss X7
• #5 Canon 700D (X7i) + 18-135mm STM kit
• #6 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Silver
• #7 Sony A6000 double zoom kit Black
• #8 Canon SL1/100D/X7 double lens kit2
• #9 Olympus e-PL6 (the only M43)
• #10 Nikon D750 + 24-120 VR kit

Not a pretty picture for Micro43.

• DSLR outsell mirrorless camera easily even in the mirrorless loving Japan
• The only M43 is an "entry-level" Olympus E-PL6 (not your high end EM1, or GH4)
• 6/10 camera in the top 10 lens are Entry-Level-Camera
• 3/10 are Mid-Range (Canon 700d + Nikon D5300 + Sony A6000)
• 1/10 are High End FF camera

2014 hasn't end yet, but here is the figure from last year.

• http://m43photo.blogspot.com/search?q=+BCN

The fall of M43 in Japan coincide with the rise of Sony.  That figure likely get worst since it doesn't factor in the sale impact of Sony A6000/A7.  I live & travel between USA and Asia frequently, and I can tell you from experience, that Sony is the only mirrorless I'm seeing in Asia now.

Now, selling cameras that were released at $1100 MSRP with kit lens for a desperation price of $599 (GX7) or a camera that was released at $749 MSRP with kit lens for $499 (GM1), that's another matter. That's more likely indicative of overly optimistic MSRP's and sales projections.

Olympus? Their release of a camera in 2014 without a built-in EVF for $699 (E-PL7) simply flies in the face of what the competition is doing and the marketplace is buying. That they have no current model to compete with the $599 24MP a6000 with EVF, or the $499 24MP a5000 without EVF is frankly startling to me. Perhaps the E-PL7's price will be reduced quickly, but that approach risks sowing distrust in their pricing by purchasers.

Exactly my point.  GM1, GX7 are all great camera, but neither one of them can compete against a Sony a6000 pricing it at just $599.  Sony has bigger sensor, better low light, better dynamic range, higher 24mp vs 16mp, and above all else, a lower price tag.  That is why Sony is selling so well, and Micro43 (gone premium niche) isn't selling well @all.

I didn't realized that GX7 was price so high @$1099.  Checking M43rumor, I can buy a brand new GX7 body for just $399 now.  Good for 1st-time buyer but bad for existing users who paid the original $1100.  Why not price the camera Lower in the beginning, instead of suffering a humiliation of massive depreciation?

This is my last post on this subject.  I speak my peace and vent my frustration.  I'm moving on.  Merry X-Mas everyone.

I find it odd that EOS M is actually gaining ground and Nikon 1 is losing it... I know it's totally unrelated to the main M4/3 vs Alpha conversation but still. Did Japan have the same EOS M fire sales the US did last year? I guess that would contribute to it...

Kinda amusing the two mirrorless systems with the least amount of new lenses were the one experiencing the most growth. Dunno if that says something about the typical mirrorless buyer in Japan or it just traces back directly to the big sales.

Impulses wrote:

I find it odd that EOS M is actually gaining ground and Nikon 1 is losing it... I know it's totally unrelated to the main M4/3 vs Alpha conversation but still. Did Japan have the same EOS M fire sales the US did last year? I guess that would contribute to it...

Kinda amusing the two mirrorless systems with the least amount of new lenses were the one experiencing the most growth. Dunno if that says something about the typical mirrorless buyer in Japan or it just traces back directly to the big sales.

The article posted this time last year in in m43blogspot.com (thanks 007Peter) that  included the chart sheds some light on where things stood then:

"Micro Four Thirds is seeing more competition, and the total market share is shrinking from 50% to 37% (top 20 camera models only). Still, Micro Four Thirds still amount for the largest market share, and the largest number of cameras on the top 20 list (nine).

Among Micro Four Thirds, Olympus is selling twice as many camera units as Panasonic, and it is the E-PL series which is the most popular. With Panasonic, the GF series sells the most in Japan.

The Sony NEX system is one of the successful systems competing against Micro Four Thirds.

The big surprise is that the Canon EOS M camera is selling so well. In my opinion, the camera has nothing to offer: It only has the fixed LCD as the viewing option, no EVF. And the autofocus is horribly slow. Further, there are next to no lenses available. The reason why the camera is still selling well is probably that the Canon brand name has a big value, and that the Canon EOS M has been selling at deep discounts.

The Nikon 1 system is not doing well. I find that a bit strange: I think Nikon has done well with their mirrorless system. They have made an electronic shutter with a fast readout rate, usable also for flash photography. This is much better than the Panasonic cameras, which have a horribly slow E-shutter. And the Nikon 1 cameras use PDAF for very accurate autofocus, also with moving subjects. Further, the cameras can take bursts of pictures at 60fps at full image quality, very impressive.

Samsung is still flexing its muscles, and just launched their GH3-killer, the NX30. So even if Samsung have not made a huge impression on the market so far, they still have far from given up.

In the future, for the 2014 list, I would expect to find the Lumix GM1 high on the list. It appears to have everything the Japan camera market wants: Sleek design, compact size."

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/search?q=+BCN

Based on this, Olympus was selling slightly better than Sony in mirrorless this time last year, and Panasonic was about tied with Canon at half the numbers of either Sony or Olympus.

Meanwhile, m43blogspot.com notes later in the same article that when compared to DSLR's,

So mirrorless was closing in on Nikon DSLR sales last year at this time. Keep in mind, these are last year's numbers published on Jan. 1, 2014; new numbers for the past year should come out in a few weeks.

Impulses wrote:

I find it odd that EOS M is actually gaining ground and Nikon 1 is losing it... I know it's totally unrelated to the main M4/3 vs Alpha conversation but still. Did Japan have the same EOS M fire sales the US did last year? I guess that would contribute to it...

I think that's more to do with the EOS-M releasing mid-way through 2012. So its market share only represented half a year's sales, and probably before most reviews and things had come up. Secondly, EOS-M2 (Japan-only) was launched end of 2013. I expect for Japan only, its market share will probably be stronger still.

Kinda amusing the two mirrorless systems with the least amount of new lenses were the one experiencing the most growth. Dunno if that says something about the typical mirrorless buyer in Japan or it just traces back directly to the big sales.

The vast, vast majority of camera buyers, even DSLR users, only ever get the camera with the kit lens or a single superzoom. Lens choice is a plus only for a narrow segment of enthusiasts (disproportionately represented here at DPR, giving many people the mistaken assumption that everyone who owns a camera thinks like the average DPR reader), and even among these, most don't physically buy more than a half dozen lenses (or at least you can cover 99% of your photography with half a dozen lenses if you are settled on what you like to shoot, and not trying to have a do-everything kit). That's why the consistent prognosis on this particular forum that Sony have "abandoned" APS-C E-mount is quite silly and betrays a lack of understanding how the camera market functions (aside from the fact that all FE lenses work just fine on APS-C). In fact it sounds nice but falls at the slightest scrutiny.

Sony have been claiming worldwide market share of 40% of the mirrorless segment for some time now (undisputed by any rivals). And they certainly didn't reach 40% by selling FF cameras. Nope, the mainstay of Sony mirrorless is always going to be APS-C, and the entry-level at that.

We had this discussion in the Sony forums back when Sony "abandoned" the "NEX" branding. Some people were panicking but it was obvious that Sony could never vacate the APS-C/compact-body line because this was where the volume was. I have a bunch of friends and relatives with NEXes. Some even got theirs before I did, but they've never gone beyond their kit lenses (including the 2-lens 16mm + 18-55 combo). What the mass market and what the enthusiast market look for are very different things, and at the end of the day, the enthusiast market is much, much smaller - and Sony have moved most of their enthusiast MILC shooters to FF, and probably gained far more from other systems besides. So it makes plain economic sense to develop the FE lens lineup as a priority - for people likely to actually buy many lenses (rather than just for people to admire and talk about).