Close Examination of Fuji X-Series Lag Time

Too bad this acoustic method won't work with the new electronic shutter. Haha

BubbleGum wrote:

Too bad this acoustic method won't work with the new electronic shutter. Haha

Hi there,

I am looking forward to the firmware update to see what changes are made. You never know, maybe they fixed this issue in the background of doing all their other changes. However, since the issue is with the lens aperture/pre-shot activity, the lag presented by those activities may still be present when using the electronic shutter, in which case, the noise will still highlight the issue I guess. We'll see.

Will test it at the earliest opportunity after updating the firmware...

Cheers, Cass.

Just for information, for anyone interested in static testing results...

Having run tests with the new firmware, have found that the issue of variable 0.2-0.5s shutter-press to image-capture lag with the 35mm, 56mm and 60mm, when in MF and stopped-down, still remains after this software update.

Cheers, Cass.

John M Roberts wrote:

Easycass wrote:

Arnold Cruz wrote:

pxchoi wrote:

Does anyone get annoyed that the aperture blades close down with a half shutter press? When shooting at smaller apertures in low light, I hate that the gain gets amped up in the viewfinder and it starts to lag.

Ditto. There's just too much going on just to take a shot.

We were at an orphanage yesterday as part of my car club's community service and despite lots of light, 1/3 of the photos was unusable.

Yes, I believe stopping down the lens on half-press should at the very least be selectable on/off.

In terms of shooting experience, I can imagine shooting at an orphanage is just the sort of experience that I have found the cameras to perform badly in. The 18mm might be quick enough to capture an expression, but that lovely 56mm bokeh feature is just useless if my subject has to hold still for 0.5 to 1 second while the lens hunts backwards and forwards, and the lens clicks and whirrs. I understand that many people do not shoot in such situations and are quite happy, but we are not talking about sports action here, we are just talking about people expressions, or that pose of an energetic child, all gone in an instant. Surely a multi-tousand dollar camera and lens set-up should be able to do that?

The camera itself may be able to establish focus information in a few milliseconds, but what's the point when the lens can take a second or so to move all the lens elements into place when in AF? That is why I went to manual focus, and then finding there are 'variable' delays inherent also in that mode, which should be almost instantaneous and predictable, just made me wonder what is going on with this system... a real shame.

Unfortunately this is one of the issues one has to consider when purchasing systems especially higher priced ones that exhibit desirable quality in many other aspects. I bought into this system for it's size and quality, not for it's reaction time. For my lighter option which I'm hoping will be an improvement for the type of shooting you mentioned, being able to capture expressions and such, I have ordered the smallest and nicely priced refurbished kit Rebel to replace my 8 year old one.

Hi John, yes, I must admit that I bought into this system for much the same reasons as you. I travel an awful lot, and something lighter, good IQ and also more discrete were big draws for me. Prior to this, I used to carry two Nikon D5200's and the DX lenses, and to be honest, only a little heavier than the Fuji stuff, but not quite as good IQ as the Fujis I think. I must admit that I knew the AF was going to be a little slower on the Fuji's, but it is just the 56mm, fo such a nice lens optically, I just can't understand why it is so much slower than the Nikon 50mm. And then, with this manual focus issue also on the 56mm, I guess a little disillusionment crept in. The Fuji's are not bad, but when I came back from a recent trip to Vietnam with just the Fuji's, that frustration caused by not getting the shots I used to get very easily with the Nikons was like a real poke in the eye. But anyway, I am sure mirrorless will get there eventually... possibly the Fuji Mk II lenses...

rlx wrote:

Hi Cass,

I did some quick checks with my XE1 and the 18-55 at around 35mm and everything set to manual: focus, aperture, speed and ISO. I got results consistent with yours, but what I did was just a quick check. The shutter lag is

120 ms at maximum aperture.

240 ms at f/11.

450 ms at f/11 just following refocus.

The following sample is the worse case I got (450 ms). It shows the camera sounds at f/11 just after a sight refocus. The first sound is the trigger. The shutter speed was 1/2 s. Note that there is a long period without much activity before the shutter gets into action.

Shutter lag of the XE1 with the 18-55 at 35.8mm, f/11, 1/2s exposure just following a focus adjustment.

I am surprised to see that the shutter lag with a manual lens is close to the lag with the 18-55 at f/11.

Hi there Rlx,

Wow, I did try the 18-55mm and couldn't induce it to show the longer lag time. Good that you have managed to show it. I am not sure what is going on with the lenses, but it is like the extra manual focus adjustment prior to shooting does something to the motors/servo in the lens, and either the firmware gets confused by the action, or there is some design feature whereby perhaps something electro-mechanical, perhaps like shared use of motors for both aperture movement and focus, causes a conflict whereby the lens needs to do something extra prior to shooting. It is weird...

It is surpising that it has remained like this for the life of the system and that Fuji has done nothing, or they didn't know. With my report now in circulation at teh Fuji offices, I guess we can rule out 'them not knowing', and wait to see if they can/will do something...

Cheers for the extra testing,

Cass.

rlx wrote:

Hi Cass. I very much appreciate your contribution doing all those measurements and I am glad you discovered the effect of a focus adjustment on the lag. I have been more concerned with the lag I experience with manual lenses since I have used manual lenses very much since I got the XE1; something like a relearning of the basics with the marvelous EVF. But the 18-55 is a very good lens and now that I understand more the issues, and with your work, and with the new AV+MF mode I think the issue is going to find some resolution; i am optimistic.

I will try to reproduce the result with the 18-55.

I won't express any feelings with respect to the lag except for this one. I have suggested a couple of times in the past year that the lag has to do with the way the software was initially designed but I didn't elaborate much. I think that 'cug' explains it very well in this thread http://www.fujix-forum.com/index.php/topic/31478-delay-due-to-aperture-blades-stopping-down-performance-question/page-10#entry335389 and I suggest to anyone concerned by the lag issue to read cug's post .

Easycass wrote:

Hi there Rlx,

Wow, I did try the 18-55mm and couldn't induce it to show the longer lag time. Good that you have managed to show it. I am not sure what is going on with the lenses, but it is like the extra manual focus adjustment prior to shooting does something to the motors/servo in the lens, and either the firmware gets confused by the action, or there is some design feature whereby perhaps something electro-mechanical, perhaps like shared use of motors for both aperture movement and focus, causes a conflict whereby the lens needs to do something extra prior to shooting. It is weird...

Cass.

It will be interesting to see if Fujifilm responds to this.  Such a wide variation of shutter lag (which I have also seen when using the back-button focusing method) is really problematic for lenses that are intended to capture action or candid shots - lenses like the two new f/2.8 zooms, and the 56.

It would be interesting to do further analysis to determine if the lag variation happens while in AF mode.  Since I see it in the back-button focusing method I suspect it will also be present in AF usage.

I think this is also one of the reasons I so enjoy shooting with my Mitakon MF lens - there is a reassuring consistency with it's use, in terms of the shutter actuation, which I could never put my finger on.  But this analysis explains it.

That's good to hear.

Could you do a quick test in back-button focus mode - i.e., in MF mode, but using the AEL button to acquire focus, followed by a press of the shutter?  I suspect this will be a common shooting mode for people who are looking to capture action.

scottyh56 wrote:

This is indeed a real issue and after trying out the 14mm on an X-E2 I have just been scratching my head about how Fuji could possibly allow it. As I stop down the delay clearly gets longer and longer and longer....

This is an observation AFTER the Dec 2014 firmware update.

The delay all but goes away at all apertures if I attach a Pentax manual focus lens via an adaptor.

It all points to the time taken to stop down the Fuji lenses. I presume that there is no way of operating a Fujinon lens in stopped down mode....

Every AF camera system will exhibit the behavior you describe, because they all focus with the lens wide-open, to get the maximum amount of light to the sensors, and then quickly stop down to your setting before activating the shutter.  The more you stop down, the more the blades have to move, so the longer it takes.

Adapted lenses that have no electrical connections do not exhibit this behavior because the camera body is not performing the AF task, and therefore the blades are not moving.

What the OP is specifically calling out is that there is something else (an extra lag) going on while in MF mode with Fuji lenses which is specifically related to the MF action performed by the shooter immediately prior to pressing the shutter button.

scottyh56 wrote:

This is indeed a real issue and after trying out the 14mm on an X-E2 I have just been scratching my head about how Fuji could possibly allow it. As I stop down the delay clearly gets longer and longer and longer....

This is an observation AFTER the Dec 2014 firmware update.

The delay all but goes away at all apertures if I attach a Pentax manual focus lens via an adaptor.

It all points to the time taken to stop down the Fuji lenses. I presume that there is no way of operating a Fujinon lens in stopped down mode....

In the next firmware update, if they gave us the ability to focus without the lens to stop down, I would be very happy.

John M Roberts wrote:

Easycass wrote:

Just for information, for anyone interested in static testing results...

Having run tests with the new firmware, have found that the issue of variable 0.2-0.5s shutter-press to image-capture lag with the 35mm, 56mm and 60mm, when in MF and stopped-down, still remains after this software update.

I just got somewhat caught up in finishing this thread. Could you please dummy it down for I got confused by all the info and charts probably due to a mixed of some laziness or impatience on my part. I got that it occurs worse with you 56mm especially stopping down and adjusting focus prior while in MF.

In my list I have the X-E1 with 18~55, 55~200, 14 and 60 macro. Would you say the improvement in delay time has not improved much or at all with having an updated X-T1? I almost always set my camera in M but use the AF back button. There are aspects I think I'd appreciate in upgrading to the X-T1 but it is a bit disappointing that the way I shoot I may not see enough or any difference in response time.

Thanks for all your work I would never get to myself.

Hi John,

Sorry for the late reply. I have both the X-E1 and X-T1. I have to say that yes, the X-T1 feels faster in most aspects to the X-E1, and yes, the AF, after the latest firmware updates, now seems a little bit better in both cameras.

To your question, well, the X-T1 is a better machine than the X-E1 in many aspects. But you may be a little disapointed with pure response-time difference, since the limiting factor for speed (both AF speed, and MF lag) is less camera-deppendent and more lens-dependent. The place where the X-T1 out-shines the X-E1 it is AF in lower light, where it seems much more able to acquire and stay focused, and if you do a lot of shooting in lower light, then yes, the X-T1 is the way to go. To be honest, the X-T1 is just a nicer camera to handle when in MF too, with that big viewfinder.

So, yes, you might be disapointed upgrading if looking only at speed-wise point of view, since the lenses still take time to do anything on whatever body thy are on, but there are so many other factors that make the X-T1 better, overall, so if you are happy with sticking with the X-series system and its 'features/quirks', the upgrade is a good one.

Cheers, Cass.