Why has Canon Abandoned F/2.8?

sportyaccordy wrote: "IS is not a substitute for optical speed."

You're right of course - apologies - I was just being a bit polemic for the sake of it.

bigfatron wrote:

I obviously should clarify what I was meaning. Yes, as a single lens its not a neck breaker like some telephotos but its nevertheless substantial. And a bag full of lenses at that weight per lens stacks up. Plus it occupies a reasonable amount of physical space. And a similar lens in f2.8 guise is probably going to weigh a kilo or more (2.2 pounds in old money).

The Nikon 14-24/2.8 is a 2007 and weighs 1100gm. The Tamron 15-30/2.8 VC weighs the same including IS.

There have been massive improvements in lens design and fabrication since 2007. It is the reason we are seeing aspherical, ED, SLD, etc. elements in even low cost lenses and why many of the new lens low cost lenses have very good optics.

If the Nikon 14-24/2.8 was 1100g in 2007, I doubt 3mm shorter focal length will add much in 2015. It seems more like an expected improvement. It is the difference between a 104° and 117° horizontal FOV, a subject 25' wide vs 32' wide at 10ft.

Just a sidebar... but Canon now has a 16-35/4 IS introduced in 2014, a 24-70/4 IS introduced in 2012, and a 70-200/4 IS introduced in 2007. This lens may fit in that scheme of less expensive, lighter F/4 lenses.

I was musing about what Canon's next FF lineup may look like. I'm thinking a 6DM2 at around $1500-1600, a 5DM4 at $2500, and a 3D with 42Mp sensor at $3500-$4000. All would need to support 4k video which the 4D could do with binning. An add on video recording module (maybe for $2500-$3500) to the 3D and maybe 5DM4 could record CanonRAW (a video format) to SSD drives.

Add the Canon lenses (which are better than Nikon's offerings at nearly every focal length) and it could be a killer combination.

DavidNJ100 wrote:

bigfatron wrote:

I obviously should clarify what I was meaning. Yes, as a single lens its not a neck breaker like some telephotos but its nevertheless substantial. And a bag full of lenses at that weight per lens stacks up. Plus it occupies a reasonable amount of physical space. And a similar lens in f2.8 guise is probably going to weigh a kilo or more (2.2 pounds in old money).

The Nikon 14-24/2.8 is a 2007 and weighs 1100gm. The Tamron 15-30/2.8 VC weighs the same including IS.

There have been massive improvements in lens design and fabrication since 2007. It is the reason we are seeing aspherical, ED, SLD, etc. elements in even low cost lenses and why many of the new lens low cost lenses have very good optics.

If the Nikon 14-24/2.8 was 1100g in 2007, I doubt 3mm shorter focal length will add much in 2015. It seems more like an expected improvement. It is the difference between a 104° and 117° horizontal FOV, a subject 25' wide vs 32' wide at 10ft.

Just a sidebar... but Canon now has a 16-35/4 IS introduced in 2014, a 24-70/4 IS introduced in 2012, and a 70-200/4 IS introduced in 2007. This lens may fit in that scheme of less expensive, lighter F/4 lenses.

I was musing about what Canon's next FF lineup may look like. I'm thinking a 6DM2 at around $1500-1600, a 5DM4 at $2500, and a 3D with 42Mp sensor at $3500-$4000. All would need to support 4k video which the 4D could do with binning. An add on video recording module (maybe for $2500-$3500) to the 3D and maybe 5DM4 could record CanonRAW (a video format) to SSD drives.

Add the Canon lenses (which are better than Nikon's offerings at nearly every focal length) and it could be a killer combination.

It has been stated that the 6D is moving up in the market when the II comes. So expect it to be in a different price range. 4K might be available only on the next flagship lineup.

ppires85 wrote:

It has been stated that the 6D is moving up in the market when the II comes. So expect it to be in a different price range. 4K might be available only on the next flagship lineup.

The market is moving down in price not up. A7 is $1500. D610 is $1700. The 6DM2 will go down if it moves at all.

4k is on smartphones, multiple Panasonic cameras. It is virtually a requirement for 2015+ cameras and was surprising to some degree that it wasn't on the 7DM2. 
Canon has a video problem because they also have a video camera division. The 5DM2 hammered their video camera division as the original 7D. The original 7D was used in professional applications such as shooting remote sites for Saturday Night Live.

HDMI 2.0 supports 3860p60. 4k TVs will be pretty common within a year. I'm typing this now on a 50" 3860p30 monitor connected to the computer via an HDMI cable.

buybuybuy wrote:

Maybe they're waging a war against bulk...as it would seem, are many other manufacturers.

That's true. 3rd party lenses is a growing market and with sigma it has been particularly unstoppable. I mean, I've seen a lot of people changing their 35mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.2 for the respective versions of the sigma. Now they came with a 150-600. Tamron is coming with a monster 15-30 2.8... sooooo yeah, Canon gotta bring interesting glasses. I know they are impossible to compare in the technical support and repairs, but that alone won't suffice for much longer.

The f/4 zoom lenses are landscape lenses. The f/2.8 zoom lenses are event / photojournalism lenses.

DavidNJ100 wrote:

ppires85 wrote:

It has been stated that the 6D is moving up in the market when the II comes. So expect it to be in a different price range. 4K might be available only on the next flagship lineup.

The market is moving down in price not up. A7 is $1500. D610 is $1700. The 6DM2 will go down if it moves at all.

4k is on smartphones, multiple Panasonic cameras. It is virtually a requirement for 2015+ cameras and was surprising to some degree that it wasn't on the 7DM2.
Canon has a video problem because they also have a video camera division. The 5DM2 hammered their video camera division as the original 7D. The original 7D was used in professional applications such as shooting remote sites for Saturday Night Live.

HDMI 2.0 supports 3860p60. 4k TVs will be pretty common within a year. I'm typing this now on a 50" 3860p30 monitor connected to the computer via an HDMI cable.

Depends how you define 'common'. One thing that we learnt from 3D was that people are a bit more sceptical these days about whatever latest and greatest gets pushed.  And even plain old HD didn't really take off until the content providers caught up (and even now a lot of broadcast stuff is 720p or 1080i at best).  4K also has the issue that it really needs a physically big screen to really come into its own, and not every lounge can accommodate the high 40"s upwards screens that show it off the best.  The greater presence of streaming services may well mean it takes off faster as a mainstream thing than HD (although some of the services that do offer it are charging a premium for 4K) but I reckon within a year for proper mainstream take-off is pushing it. Plus the prices of the sets still needs to come down a bit more, even if they have come down a bit versus 12 months ago.

If you compare the Tamron 24-70 and 70-200 to their Nikon equivalents, the Tamrons are better or comparable. If you compare them to their Canon equivalents, the Canons are better.

Ditto telephotos where with some lenses the D810 has a big advantage in resolution (e.g. the Sigma 35 and 50 primes). However, with telephotos the 5DM3 with Canon glass is within 10% or so of the D810. That doesn't even count an autofocus advantage (autofocus is half lens/half camera). Many shooters think the 1Dx with telephotos (e.g. for sports) is significantly better than the D4s.

So much is happening I just waiting to see what unfolds. The two F4 wide angle zooms just had me concerned Canon was following Sony to an F4 standard.

Talking about Sony, the A7-II really looks interesting. The in camera sensor stabilization would work with all my Nikon AiS primes. As would the EVF's focus peaking. Adds S-log picture style and 50Mb/s video recording. Getting a lot closer to the DSLR of the future.