GH4 video judder/strobing - a solution

I have never even tried 24P with my GH4. Sounds still odd that there is uneven judder in 24P recording. I think it may be the player issue. Have you studied this juddering pans frame by frame. is there odd jumps?

I use UHD 29.970P and it is very smooth when watched with 50" high end plasma tv and motion enhancement on. There is noticeable judder when I watch these videos with a computer monitor.

left eye wrote:

Ok I'm a week into the GH4, and I've been battling with video judder / strobing, call it what you will. I had just about come to the conclusion that the GH4 is a techno gimmick, rather than a workhorse tool.

At 24fps, which gives access to C4K - that can be dropped into a 4K timeline to provide post panning options, or both into FHD, etc, so I've been using 24fps, + it gives that cinema look, right?

I just cannot get the GH4 to avoid the dreaded judder, I hear of people returning camera because of it, and going back to Canon!

The LCD monitor doesn't help either, as it's frequency is either 30 or 60 fps, ridiculous! why doesn't it just match the system freq! Anyway the judder many of us see goes beyond the LCD monitor, it's plaguing our recorded footage.

The judder isn't the classic slightly flick-book feel of 24fps, it's almost a judder every second or two, it's hard to put my finger on exactly the rate of judder, and it's more of flickery judder (rather than a dropped frame - which BTW there are no dropped frames); it's not an even 24fps flicker, though it's frequent and every now and again.

My workflow is 4K into a 1080 timeline, which as we all know with the GH4 is far superior to (same data-rate) 1080 captured footage.

The judder is most noticeable when panning - panning as slow & smoothly as possible, but also on moving subjects. Yes, I've been everywhere from 180 degrees shutter, to a soft 360 degrees; the judder just seems present where it wouldn't be with other gear running 24fps.

>>>

So what I did is set the camera frequency to 29.97 (NTSC) even though I live in a 25 (PAL) region. Now shooting 4K, dropped into a 1080 / 29.97 time-line, everything is buttery smooth, panning, zooming you name it. The weird thing is the difference is massive, suddenly I've got rock solid, smooth footage, not less judder or flicker, none!

It's not like the extra 6 fps has an incremental improvement on the problem (which as I say isn't 24fps flicker, it's occasional judder), the problem is no longer. Placing the same res 4K into a 1080 timeline, the footage the same 100Mbps data rate, surely rules out any computer performance issues, the only difference being the higher fps - which unlike the lower fps, plays without issue.

The computer BTW is a MacBook Pro 2.2 i7 quad core, 8GB DDR3, SSD drive, probably not the greatest of graphic cards, but it does have one (it does also have an on-board graphics chip, which I disable), it can handle 1080 fine.

It's almost as if the 24fps is interfering with something in the camera running at 23.97?

As a bonus the camera LCD is now also smooth and non-juddery, ok this doesn't effect the footage, but it's feedback builds confidence at the time of shooting.

As 29.97fps can be mastered / exported for Blu-Ray, are there any real issues in using 29.97 in Europe / PAL regions? Cinema projectors are traditionally 24fps (hence the C4K 24fps), though I believe now most cinema projectors can handle various frame rates. Can 29.97 / NTSC Blu-Rays be commercially distributed / sold in Europe?

My main issue with 29.97 would be if this prevents cinema projection - as this will be one destination for the footage; not nationwide, but specialist screenings (though in standard cinemas).

In any case 29.97 is quite a revelation on the GH4, whatever region you live in!

BTW is there any way to set the camera to 30fps? - and would that in any way be an advantage in term of distribution compatibility? I have no cause to use higher rates, such as 48fps or 60fps.

What are your thoughts on the subject, have you suffered from GH4 24fps judder, and found a solution? Most GH4 footage I have seen (Vimeo) is shot on a tripod with no panning! - which minimises the problem for sure, I wonder if this is because the judder is an issue (more than a total widespread preference for static angles!); generally though motion in the scenes seems fairly smooth.

I'd be glad to hear your experiences, and wisdom!

My workflow is 4K into a 1080 timeline, which as we all know with the GH4 is far superior to (same data-rate) 1080 captured footage.

Why bother, it seems an awful lot of fuss, is your PC hardware up to the mark and 4k ready ?

Whatever the technical reason, for me 29.97 is the way to go - with this cam (even in PAL Europe).

Seems odd that on the camera's LCD monitor, 24fps judders every now and again ...and as I've said this isn't the classic 24fps flicker, it's an occasional judder, the cameras LCD does this, as well as the recorded footage.

Shouldn't the camera's LCD at least be judder free? - surely the LCD's technology has been tweaked to the camera's performance. Again, maybe I'm overstating this, but it's not an even 24fps flicker I'm seeing (-which is ok), it's an occasional ugly judder - and the judder is visible on the LCD as well.

At 29.97fps, the camera's LCD monitor is judder free, as is the recorded footage - which is great.

I just wish the 24fps 'occasional judder' wasn't there! - does anyone else see this?

I take your point, it's a i7 Mac, 4-cores, and in the next months I shall be getting 8 core.

Though the two scenarios I'm looking at here are both 4K, into 1080, both 100Mbps

24fps judders once or twice a second, the higher frame rate 29.97 is totally smooth.

On the LCD monitor of the GH4, while filming, 24fps judders, 29.97 is smooth, odd don't you think?

And by juddering its not an even 24fps 'flick-book' effect (I overstate, but 24fps can have this look, and it's ok), its a jolt once or twice a second, 29.97 has no 'jolts' - it's continuous (regardless of the faster rate 29.97 brings, I'm at 180 and 360 degrees shutter - so not so flick-book at either 24 or 29.97).

Mainly I wonder are you finding 24fps on GH4, continuous in a 24fps way - no occasional judders?

...the camera arrived with firmware v2.0

and the 12-35mm lens arrived with v1.2

both sealed / brand-new from WEX (UK)

left eye wrote:

...the camera arrived with firmware v2.0

and the 12-35mm lens arrived with v1.2

both sealed / brand-new from WEX (UK)

There are lots of 24P shooters in Personal View forum:

http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/10202/gh4-4k-panasonic-video-camera-user-reviews-and-opinions#Item_1141

Have looked there?

I have been there a lot and I havent seen that issue.

Paulmorgan wrote:

left eye wrote:

Ok I'm a week into the GH4, and I've been battling with video judder / strobing, call it what you will. I had just about come to the conclusion that the GH4 is a techno gimmick, rather than a workhorse tool.

At 24fps, which gives access to C4K - that can be dropped into a 4K timeline to provide post panning options, or both into FHD, etc, so I've been using 24fps, + it gives that cinema look, right?

I just cannot get the GH4 to avoid the dreaded judder, I hear of people returning camera because of it, and going back to Canon!

The LCD monitor doesn't help either, as it's frequency is either 30 or 60 fps, ridiculous! why doesn't it just match the system freq! Anyway the judder many of us see goes beyond the LCD monitor, it's plaguing our recorded footage.

The judder isn't the classic slightly flick-book feel of 24fps, it's almost a judder every second or two, it's hard to put my finger on exactly the rate of judder, and it's more of flickery judder (rather than a dropped frame - which BTW there are no dropped frames); it's not an even 24fps flicker, though it's frequent and every now and again.

My workflow is 4K into a 1080 timeline, which as we all know with the GH4 is far superior to (same data-rate) 1080 captured footage.

The judder is most noticeable when panning - panning as slow & smoothly as possible, but also on moving subjects. Yes, I've been everywhere from 180 degrees shutter, to a soft 360 degrees; the judder just seems present where it wouldn't be with other gear running 24fps.

>>>

So what I did is set the camera frequency to 29.97 (NTSC) even though I live in a 25 (PAL) region. Now shooting 4K, dropped into a 1080 / 29.97 time-line, everything is buttery smooth, panning, zooming you name it. The weird thing is the difference is massive, suddenly I've got rock solid, smooth footage, not less judder or flicker, none!

It's not like the extra 6 fps has an incremental improvement on the problem (which as I say isn't 24fps flicker, it's occasional judder), the problem is no longer. Placing the same res 4K into a 1080 timeline, the footage the same 100Mbps data rate, surely rules out any computer performance issues, the only difference being the higher fps - which unlike the lower fps, plays without issue.

The computer BTW is a MacBook Pro 2.2 i7 quad core, 8GB DDR3, SSD drive, probably not the greatest of graphic cards, but it does have one (it does also have an on-board graphics chip, which I disable), it can handle 1080 fine.

It's almost as if the 24fps is interfering with something in the camera running at 23.97?

As a bonus the camera LCD is now also smooth and non-juddery, ok this doesn't effect the footage, but it's feedback builds confidence at the time of shooting.

As 29.97fps can be mastered / exported for Blu-Ray, are there any real issues in using 29.97 in Europe / PAL regions? Cinema projectors are traditionally 24fps (hence the C4K 24fps), though I believe now most cinema projectors can handle various frame rates. Can 29.97 / NTSC Blu-Rays be commercially distributed / sold in Europe?

My main issue with 29.97 would be if this prevents cinema projection - as this will be one destination for the footage; not nationwide, but specialist screenings (though in standard cinemas).

In any case 29.97 is quite a revelation on the GH4, whatever region you live in!

BTW is there any way to set the camera to 30fps? - and would that in any way be an advantage in term of distribution compatibility? I have no cause to use higher rates, such as 48fps or 60fps.

What are your thoughts on the subject, have you suffered from GH4 24fps judder, and found a solution? Most GH4 footage I have seen (Vimeo) is shot on a tripod with no panning! - which minimises the problem for sure, I wonder if this is because the judder is an issue (more than a total widespread preference for static angles!); generally though motion in the scenes seems fairly smooth.

I'd be glad to hear your experiences, and wisdom!

My workflow is 4K into a 1080 timeline, which as we all know with the GH4 is far superior to (same data-rate) 1080 captured footage.

Why bother, it seems an awful lot of fuss, is your PC hardware up to the mark and 4k ready ?

Why is it that I've never heard from anyone using this workflow that it's "an awful lot of fuss" or the equivalent?

The increased resolution, smoothness of gradation, and freedom from moire would make even a much more complex workflow worthwhile, not to mention the cropping/zooming possibilities.

..yes!

4K into 1080 is a revelation, incredible quality, smoothness and sharpness, and all those subtle post zooms and pans, results are amazing!

It's actually a new workflow, and valid.

+ yes also, stay in 4K timeline - it provides the extra step up for cinema delivery...

though actually 4K into 1080 maintains much of the GH4 quality and does offer post pan / zoom / stabilisation flexibility, for looking amazing on Blu-Ray.

...though to the point, 24fps judder, Pete, you have a GH4, do you see it?

...do you find the LCD monitor to be smooth - without judder, when panning 24fps (as is 29.97fps - without odd judders)?

...as I say I'm only a week into the GH4 (though this isn't the first DSLR that I've used for video > Olympus / Pentax).

29.97fps is working very well - though maybe I shouldn't be using it in Europe!

24fps just looks so different, maybe I'm super critical as to the differences, in anycase I'll use 29.97 until I master 24, good to know others are finding it without judder.

When I'm running through an 8 core maybe 24fps will run smooth, seems odd that the higher fps of 29.97 runs smooth with my quad-core though.

Anyway I'm not jumping to any drastic conclusions, I'm keeping GH4 and getting to know it!

...many thanks for your input...

..I'm shooting outdoors, mainly,

but yes, fluorescent lights are another kettle of fish - if the shutter isn't synced they produce waves of bands rolling down the footage, but it's not that that I'm seeing.

I've googled GH4 juddering / strobing, etc, and got some hits, but think it's mostly camera operator faults. As I say 29.97 is so so so much smoother, it'll be my default for a while.

I doubt the camera is at fault.

I don't expect 24fps to be as smooth as 29.97 / 30 fps, but the judder is just not looking quite right, even with exact shutter angles 180d, and even 360d (which helps at bit, though footage then seems softer, and isn't a total solution, as is 29.97).

I don't think I'm being unduly critical, or misunderstanding the device, though I'm still hoping to hear from someone who has had this issue!

I've come to the conclusion it's a frequency interference between my brain and 24fps.

When I look at the 24fps footage frame by frame, it all looks evenly continuous, no odd jumps.

The old style 50hz fluorescent lights would give me a headache in no time - I see their flicker constantly - when other claim they cannot. The new 100hz fluorescent tubes seem ok.

I might get used to the 24fps look (25fps has the same issues for me), but 29.97 just seems so so much sweeter to my brain.  I can't say I've had this issue at the cinema though, maybe projection softens the impact compared to LCD monitors, on the other hand I do remember a couple of occasions where I've walked out of a cinema mid-film...

left eye wrote:

..yes!

4K into 1080 is a revelation, incredible quality, smoothness and sharpness, and all those subtle post zooms and pans, results are amazing!

It's actually a new workflow, and valid.

+ yes also, stay in 4K timeline - it provides the extra step up for cinema delivery...

though actually 4K into 1080 maintains much of the GH4 quality and does offer post pan / zoom / stabilisation flexibility, for looking amazing on Blu-Ray.

...though to the point, 24fps judder, Pete, you have a GH4, do you see it?

Ever since being blown away by the "Light of the Yucatan" GH4 video on my 1080p monitor early in the GH4 days I've been a true believer in the "special sauce" that 4K>1080p brings to the screen.

I've yet to give C4K a try, but I'll see if I get the flickers also.

Pete

Pete Berry wrote:

left eye wrote:

..yes!

4K into 1080 is a revelation, incredible quality, smoothness and sharpness, and all those subtle post zooms and pans, results are amazing!

It's actually a new workflow, and valid.

+ yes also, stay in 4K timeline - it provides the extra step up for cinema delivery...

though actually 4K into 1080 maintains much of the GH4 quality and does offer post pan / zoom / stabilisation flexibility, for looking amazing on Blu-Ray.

...though to the point, 24fps judder, Pete, you have a GH4, do you see it?

Ever since being blown away by the "Light of the Yucatan" GH4 video on my 1080p monitor early in the GH4 days I've been a true believer in the "special sauce" that 4K>1080p brings to the screen.

I've yet to give C4K a try, but I'll see if I get the flickers also.

Pete

I get no unusual flicker playing C4K/24fps through VLC into my FHD monitor, or on the camera's LCD. It will not play OOC through HDMI on my UHD TV, though - ?due to resampling needed to fit UHD screen or 24fps? Specs only say it supports 2160p.

Pete

...thanks Pete for trying C4K, reassuring that it's just an issue at my end.

Though I definitely see occasional judders on the camera's LCD, when panning using either C4K or 4K, at 24fps.  As to the results on a FHD monitor, I'm not sure the judders are in the same place, and could be due to my i7 quad core (and graphics card), not being up to it.

I certainly cannot play 4K, though this at present wouldn't be required. I'm placing 4K into a FHD timeline, and then rendering it, before viewing.  It should play smooth, though again maybe my Mac's spec isn't up to the bit rate or somesuch.

The odd thing is if I use 29.97fps all is very very smooth, including pans, and 29.97fps has the same bitrate over time (although as there are more frames per sec, each frame will contain slightly less info than 24fps).

I shall to return to this in a 5-6 days, other commitments at present.

In anycase when running smooth, the footage looks incredible; settling on these settings - not too flat - which is great in the current UK overcast conditions, skys hold-up well, and grade well, the output isn't too far off what I require.  I prefer not to push the output around too much in post afterwards...

CineD,

Contrast 0, Sharp -2, NR -4, Sat -3

Highlights -3 / Shadows 0

Master Pedestal +10