G16 replaced my G15: some thoughts

Henry Richardson wrote:

About 1.5 years ago I posted about my new G15:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51305420

Last week I bought a G16 so I thought I would post a bit about it too.

I really didn't need to change from the G15 to G16, but the 2 things I mentioned (speed up of AF/reduced lag time and the slightly better sensor) along with the pretty good price for the G16 here in Japan got me to get it. Also, for the last couple of months I had started checking to see if there was anything out there to replace my G15 since things move on since it came out in 2012. Then when I also saw what came out at Photokina I just didn't see anything that was compelling enough. That left the G16 with it's small, but interesting updates. It was much like when I bought the G15 last year. I looked at everything and for my uses decided that the G15 while not ideal was the best compromise. Recently I again examined all the options and ended up deciding that the G16 was the best compromise for me.

After carrying the G16 around here in Sapporo for the last few days I definitely notice the speed up and that is welcome. The G15 was reported to be faster than the G12 and now the G16 is even faster. I was generally satisfied with the speed of the G15, but that is in comparison to other digicams. Now the G16 is definitely faster so that focus and lag are closer to using a DSLR. For this sort of camera and the way I use it the speed up is welcome and adequate.

The G16 has a new BSI 1/1.7" sensor that is a bit better than the G15 sensor. Nothing dramatic, but still welcome. Carl Garrard showed full-size raw conversions using ACR. One was at ISO 80 and it was a wide dynamic range, highly detailed photo that looked quite good. He also showed an ISO 12,800 photo in very low light. I was frankly surprised at how good it looked considering the very high ISO and the small sensor. The photo didn't have lots of fine detail to look at such as hair, but the tight, small noise and no banding made me realize that in some situations that this was an ISO that I could use on the G16. Probably better than I remember ISO 1600 or 3200 on APS-C just a few years ago. The new sensor and the excellent state of raw conversion software these days really is rather surprising. The highest ISO photos I have ever shot are ISO 6400 with the A700, Canon 60D, and Olympus E-M5. With the fast G16 lens though I doubt if I would hardly ever find any need to go above ISO 1600.

Just to get an idea of how the new BSI 1/1.7" sensor does compared to the 1" sensor in the Sony RX100 and BSI 1" sensor in the Sony RX100III (probably about the same as the G7X) here are a couple of DxO measurement charts. As you can see, the differences are there, but aren't that large. By the way, what does DxO mean when they say some of the RX100III data points are smoothed? It seems that the tech is improved at a faster rate for smaller sensors.

I have no idea if there will be a G17 or what it will be. With the GX7 it seems likely that it will have a 1" sensor. Another possibility that sort of sounds attractive to me is if they just have another incremental improvement of the 1/1.7" sensor and manage to speed up the lens by half a stop. The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

Thanks for this!

I hadn't looked at the DXOMark cross comparisons yet but you're right, the results are indeed close (closer than I assumed). I knew what the final DXO score on the G16 was, but the other data I hadn't looked at. In real life I knew the G16 was close to the RX series cameras, and this helps to cement those findings.

I do like to use a camera around and about to see how good it will perform in real life prior to looking up all the figures. The real life performance vs measured performance is an interesting cross comparison too :). I find what seems like a major advantage from DXO scores doesn't always translate into a major advantage in real life.

Also on the contrary, DXOMark, as wonderful as they are, fail to report on color bleeding and banding in raw file data. I find both of those traits to be destructive of image quality if you are going to use higher ISO's. Sensors these days seem to exhibit less and less of either which is good, but some still do. At the first sign of banding, I consider a camera useless from that ISO speed onward, color bleeding- same thing depending on how bad it is. So if DXOMark isn't reporting on banding or bleeding, I'll mark their score way down as a result of it. To me, it's a parameter that needs to be added to the test data- usability of images is definitely something to consider!

Thanks for the post Henry! Should have my review up soon.

Carl

http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

Henry Richardson wrote:

The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

The equivalent of the G7X lens on 1/1.7" sensor would be f/1.1-f/1.7, 5.2-22 mm (24-100mm equiv.). Should be possible if you accept the same strong software corrections that are used in G7X. The corrections would be a bit more visible with the smaller sensor though, because of sensor limitations like MP number and noise levels.

Physically that extrapolated lens would be 1.7x smaller in every dimension than the G7X lens (maybe smaller than the current G16 lens?). On a 1/1.7" sensor camera there is less need to shrink the lens because it is already a bit smaller relative to the camera, so a slightly bigger lens than extrapolated should be no problem. In that case it could have less distortion (correction) and better image quality than the one of G7X, or have an even brighter aperture. But don't hold your breath for such a complete redesign of G-series lenses

technic wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

The equivalent of the G7X lens on 1/1.7" sensor would be f/1.1-f/1.7, 5.2-22 mm (24-100mm equiv.). Should be possible if you accept the same strong software corrections that are used in G7X. The corrections would be a bit more visible with the smaller sensor though, because of sensor limitations like MP number and noise levels.

Physically that extrapolated lens would be 1.7x smaller in every dimension than the G7X lens (maybe smaller than the current G16 lens?). On a 1/1.7" sensor camera there is less need to shrink the lens because it is already a bit smaller relative to the camera, so a slightly bigger lens than extrapolated should be no problem. In that case it could have less distortion (correction) and better image quality than the one of G7X, or have an even brighter aperture. But don't hold your breath for such a complete redesign of G-series lenses

Sensors schmensors, the improvement in noise and DR are so minimal in steps these days, I see lens design as the next big step in camera's. It has been, and already is happening, but I think major advances are coming next. If camera companies aren't planning on major leaps, they damn well ought to be.

Haven't any of you wondered why brighter lenses aren't on compacts with smaller sensors? It's not a matter of can or can't its been a matter of will or won't.

To me the G series would be so ridiculously nice with an f/.85-f/1.4 24-90mm lens over a 1 1/7" sensor.

Why not?

And yes an f/.85-f/1.2 lens is definitely possible on a compact camera with a small sensor so long as the focal length is reasonable. Especially these days with rapidly advancing optical formulas and technology.

Carl

http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

cgarrard wrote:

Haven't any of you wondered why brighter lenses aren't on compacts with smaller sensors? It's not a matter of can or can't its been a matter of will or won't.

To me the G series would be so ridiculously nice with an f/.85-f/1.4 24-90mm lens over a 1 1/7" sensor.

Why not?

And yes an f/.85-f/1.2 lens is definitely possible on a compact camera with a small sensor so long as the focal length is reasonable. Especially these days with rapidly advancing optical formulas and technology.

I don't see the latest developments as just advancement. These bright, ultra-compact zoom lenses come with an obvious price: worse image quality, especially in the corners. Not something I look forward to, but YMMV.

technic wrote:

cgarrard wrote:

Haven't any of you wondered why brighter lenses aren't on compacts with smaller sensors? It's not a matter of can or can't its been a matter of will or won't.

To me the G series would be so ridiculously nice with an f/.85-f/1.4 24-90mm lens over a 1 1/7" sensor.

Why not?

And yes an f/.85-f/1.2 lens is definitely possible on a compact camera with a small sensor so long as the focal length is reasonable. Especially these days with rapidly advancing optical formulas and technology.

I don't see the latest developments as just advancement. These bright, ultra-compact zoom lenses come with an obvious price: worse image quality, especially in the corners. Not something I look forward to, but YMMV.

The G16's lens is stellar, and bright, and has a nice usuable zoom range. Just because manufacturers of late aren't making the newer brighter lenses for the larger sensor cameras we are seeing now better, doesn't mean they can't make better and brighter ones later.

Right now I think that the 1 1/7" sized sensor is poised well to get brighter glass put in front of it. It's much less of an engineers challenge to do so vs say, the 1" sized sensors that are so popular right now.

There may be a bit of an overzealous desire to bring these devices to enthusiasts as fast as possible which is creating a gap in quality. That in itself has created room for future models to improve upon the optical tech.

However, what I said is possible with today's tech. A brighter lens around a 1 1/7" sized sensor can be both brighter and have excellent optical characteristics.

Carl

http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

cgarrard wrote:

Thanks for the post Henry! Should have my review up soon.

You are welcome. I am looking forward to reading your review. Yes, I already have the camera, but like most of us I still like to read about what I have already bought.

cgarrard wrote:

However, what I said is possible with today's tech. A brighter lens around a 1 1/7" sized sensor can be both brighter and have excellent optical characteristics.

'excellent' if you don't look at the corners; otherwise a lens that is brighter and better optically would be significantly bigger, and the market simply does not accept that. The trend is brighter / smaller lenses with compromised corners.

There were no real advances in optics that suddenly allowed brighter/better lenses; it is mostly accepting more native distortion, vignetting etc. and correcting that in software. Something has to give.

technic wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

The equivalent of the G7X lens on 1/1.7" sensor would be f/1.1-f/1.7, 5.2-22 mm (24-100mm equiv.). Should be possible if you accept the same strong software corrections that are used in G7X. The corrections would be a bit more visible with the smaller sensor though, because of sensor limitations like MP number and noise levels.

Actually, I like my more modest idea better.  Keeping things more modest may mean less compromises in the lens design requiring so much software correction.  That is why I suggested just a 1/2 stop improvement.  Or maybe a 1/3 stop.  The G16 body is bigger than the G7X and the sensor is smaller.  That probably means fewer severe constraints on the lens designer.

Physically that extrapolated lens would be 1.7x smaller in every dimension than the G7X lens (maybe smaller than the current G16 lens?). On a 1/1.7" sensor camera there is less need to shrink the lens because it is already a bit smaller relative to the camera, so a slightly bigger lens than extrapolated should be no problem. In that case it could have less distortion (correction) and better image quality than the one of G7X, or have an even brighter aperture. But don't hold your breath for such a complete redesign of G-series lenses

Henry Richardson wrote:

technic wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

The equivalent of the G7X lens on 1/1.7" sensor would be f/1.1-f/1.7, 5.2-22 mm (24-100mm equiv.). Should be possible if you accept the same strong software corrections that are used in G7X. The corrections would be a bit more visible with the smaller sensor though, because of sensor limitations like MP number and noise levels.

Actually, I like my more modest idea better. Keeping things more modest may mean less compromises in the lens design requiring so much software correction. That is why I suggested just a 1/2 stop improvement. Or maybe a 1/3 stop. The G16 body is bigger than the G7X and the sensor is smaller. That probably means fewer severe constraints on the lens designer.

Agree, a modest improvement should be possible if they don't try to downsize the lens; personally I'd rather see an even better lens with the same nominal spec.

But I'm afraid the recent trend in lens design for compacts will prove sticky ;-(

technic wrote:

cgarrard wrote:

However, what I said is possible with today's tech. A brighter lens around a 1 1/7" sized sensor can be both brighter and have excellent optical characteristics.

'excellent' if you don't look at the corners; otherwise a lens that is brighter and better optically would be significantly bigger, and the market simply does not accept that. The trend is brighter / smaller lenses with compromised corners.

There were no real advances in optics that suddenly allowed brighter/better lenses; it is mostly accepting more native distortion, vignetting etc. and correcting that in software. Something has to give.

Hehe I think you're missing my point.

The bad corner lenses you are referring too of late are from the RX100/G7X/LX100- I'm talking about the G16/G15 lens, which is stellar. Making brighter lenses around smaller sensors is the trick, not brighter lenses around bigger sensors.

C

http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

technic wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

technic wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

The equivalent of the G7X lens on 1/1.7" sensor would be f/1.1-f/1.7, 5.2-22 mm (24-100mm equiv.). Should be possible if you accept the same strong software corrections that are used in G7X. The corrections would be a bit more visible with the smaller sensor though, because of sensor limitations like MP number and noise levels.

Actually, I like my more modest idea better. Keeping things more modest may mean less compromises in the lens design requiring so much software correction. That is why I suggested just a 1/2 stop improvement. Or maybe a 1/3 stop. The G16 body is bigger than the G7X and the sensor is smaller. That probably means fewer severe constraints on the lens designer.

Agree, a modest improvement should be possible if they don't try to downsize the lens; personally I'd rather see an even better lens with the same nominal spec.

But I'm afraid the recent trend in lens design for compacts will prove sticky ;-(

Henry and I are on the same page here.

You're referring to the lenses designed around much larger sensors, neither of us are suggesting the larger sensor, but a better lens around the 1 1/7' sensor. Easily attainable given the size of the sensor, the size of a G16, etc.

I don't think the S120 platform or G7X platform is the answer, it needs to be a bigger camera like the G16.

Carl

cgarrard wrote:

technic wrote:

cgarrard wrote:

However, what I said is possible with today's tech. A brighter lens around a 1 1/7" sized sensor can be both brighter and have excellent optical characteristics.

'excellent' if you don't look at the corners; otherwise a lens that is brighter and better optically would be significantly bigger, and the market simply does not accept that. The trend is brighter / smaller lenses with compromised corners.

There were no real advances in optics that suddenly allowed brighter/better lenses; it is mostly accepting more native distortion, vignetting etc. and correcting that in software. Something has to give.

Hehe I think you're missing my point.

The bad corner lenses you are referring too of late are from the RX100/G7X/LX100- I'm talking about the G16/G15 lens, which is stellar. Making brighter lenses around smaller sensors is the trick, not brighter lenses around bigger sensors.

It's perfectly clear that you are talking about a lens for 1/1.7" sensor.

There are no magic tricks to make lenses much brighter than they were without accepting other compromises. You can have a brighter lens, but it will be either much bigger and probably more expensive (no chance in the current market) or it will use strong software corrections, with the result that corner quality is compromised compared to a more traditional lens. This would apply just the same for a G17.

If you mean that an f/1.7 zoom for 1/1.7 inch sensor is probably better quality than an f/1.7 zoom for 1 inch sensor we agree. But on an equivalent basis that f/1.7 zoom for 1 inch sensor is much brighter (similar to f/1.0 on 1/1.7 inch sensor).

technic wrote:

cgarrard wrote:

technic wrote:

cgarrard wrote:

However, what I said is possible with today's tech. A brighter lens around a 1 1/7" sized sensor can be both brighter and have excellent optical characteristics.

'excellent' if you don't look at the corners; otherwise a lens that is brighter and better optically would be significantly bigger, and the market simply does not accept that. The trend is brighter / smaller lenses with compromised corners.

There were no real advances in optics that suddenly allowed brighter/better lenses; it is mostly accepting more native distortion, vignetting etc. and correcting that in software. Something has to give.

Hehe I think you're missing my point.

The bad corner lenses you are referring too of late are from the RX100/G7X/LX100- I'm talking about the G16/G15 lens, which is stellar. Making brighter lenses around smaller sensors is the trick, not brighter lenses around bigger sensors.

It's perfectly clear that you are talking about a lens for 1/1.7" sensor.

There are no magic tricks to make lenses much brighter than they were without accepting other compromises. You can have a brighter lens, but it will be either much bigger and probably more expensive (no chance in the current market) or it will use strong software corrections, with the result that corner quality is compromised compared to a more traditional lens. This would apply just the same for a G17.

If you mean that an f/1.7 zoom for 1/1.7 inch sensor is probably better quality than an f/1.7 zoom for 1 inch sensor we agree. But on an equivalent basis that f/1.7 zoom for 1 inch sensor is much brighter (similar to f/1.0 on 1/1.7 inch sensor).

I'm simply suggesting that using a 1 over 1/7" sized sensor is a sensor that you can make a brighter lens around.  It's been done in a small form factor already.

Yes the lens would likely need to be a little larger, and the camera a little more expensive. Using the G16 platform for example, a 24-135mm f/1.4-f/2.0 lens is totally feasible, for example. This, without making much of a cost or size increase at all.

Carl
http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

technic wrote:

Agree, a modest improvement should be possible if they don't try to downsize the lens; personally I'd rather see an even better lens with the same nominal spec.

But I'm afraid the recent trend in lens design for compacts will prove sticky ;-(

I know that Canon is not going to do something just because I want them to. They are a business trying to make money and will choose to do what they deem is best to achieve that end. They may even decide to end this line. Or they may put a 1" sensor in it and a worse lens. I make no predictions.

Since the G15 came out with the much faster lens though and the incremental improvement in the G16 small sensor it just got me to thinking that further incremental improvements in small sensors and further improvements in the lens make an attractive combination and alternative to somewhat bigger sensors with more compromised lenses. Not for every camera, of course, but I have grown to rather like the G16/G15 for certain uses.

Henry Richardson wrote:

technic wrote:

Agree, a modest improvement should be possible if they don't try to downsize the lens; personally I'd rather see an even better lens with the same nominal spec.

But I'm afraid the recent trend in lens design for compacts will prove sticky ;-(

I know that Canon is not going to do something just because I want them to. They are a business trying to make money and will choose to do what they deem is best to achieve that end. They may even decide to end this line. Or they may put a 1" sensor in it and a worse lens. I make no predictions.

Since the G15 came out with the much faster lens though and the incremental improvement in the G16 small sensor it just got me to thinking that further incremental improvements in small sensors and further improvements in the lens make an attractive combination and alternative to somewhat bigger sensors with more compromised lenses. Not for every camera, of course, but I have grown to rather like the G16/G15 for certain uses.

Yep, trying to predict what a camera company will do is almost as bad as predicting next year's weather.

Carl
http://www.photographic-central.blogspot.com (Gear reviews)
http://www.carlgarrard.blogspot.com/ (Best work compilation)
Also formerly AlphaMountWorld.com (Now off the web)

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Canon-PowerShot-G16-review-Small-Wonder/Introduction

Canon has improved the image quality over the earlier G15 by quite a margin

Canon has made significant advances with the sensor in the G16 for both color depth and dynamic range.

Henry Richardson wrote:

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Canon-PowerShot-G16-review-Small-Wonder/Introduction

Canon has improved the image quality over the earlier G15 by quite a margin

Canon has made significant advances with the sensor in the G16 for both color depth and dynamic range.

FYI - the G7X has a TWO STOP advantage over the G16 in SNR.  This is a big deal, IMO.

Henry Richardson wrote:

I have no idea if there will be a G17 or what it will be. With the GX7 it seems likely that it will have a 1" sensor. Another possibility that sort of sounds attractive to me is if they just have another incremental improvement of the 1/1.7" sensor and manage to speed up the lens by half a stop. The G16 has a fov 28-140mm f1.8-2.8, but the G17 could have a fov 28-140mm f1.5-2.4. I don't know if they could do that, but considering the rather surprising fov 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 for the 1" sensor in the G7X then it seems like it may be possible. The G7X uses a lot of software correction of the lens so that is another thing that the smaller 1/1.7" sensor might need less of.

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

At this point especially from a product marketing point of view looking at the camera landscape it seems fairly unlikely that if there is a G17 it will still have a 1/1.7" sensor. At the price of a G17 (assuming a price similar to the G16 when it was new) people expect a 1" sensor. I like my G16, but that is because I use it in a particular way and also have m4/3 gear for other things and I still have my S95 for something really small (smaller than a G7X). I would like a bit more DR than I get with my G16.

Anyway, with the G7X and G3X both with the good 1" sensor then if there is a G17 I would like to see the same 1" sensor or something similar. It would also be great if Canon finally improved their OVF or, even better, just went to a builtin EVF. The Fuji X30, Sony RX100IIII/IV, etc. have an EVF. I still think that with the G16 size body they could put a 1" sensor and considering the small 24-100mm f1.8-2.8 in the G7X it seems like they could do even better for the lens in the larger G17 body. Maybe 24-160mm f1.8-2.8? I hope Canon does come out with a G17.

There are just so few small cameras with a builtin EVF/OVF:

Tiny sensor:
Canon G16 OVF
Nikon P7800 EVF
Fuji X10, X20 OVF
Fuji X30 EVF

1" sensor:
Sony RX100III, RX100IV

Did I miss any?

Henry Richardson wrote:

There are just so few small cameras with a builtin EVF/OVF:

Tiny sensor:
Canon G16 OVF
Nikon P7800 EVF
Fuji X10, X20 OVF
Fuji X30 EVF

1" sensor:
Sony RX100III, RX100IV

Did I miss any?

Tiny sensor:

Panasonic LF1 EVF