Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

Started Jul 16, 2014 | Discussions
Alex Sarbu Veteran Member • Posts: 7,501
Re: Charity, the essence of marketing

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Only I can write now is that you will be pleasantly surprised because Pentax FF will be unlike any other FF on the market, as stated by Mr Kawauchi of Ricoh Imaging in his 2013 interview.

This "unlike any other FF on the market" is an interpretation based on a translation from a foreign language. It's not easy to keep the meaning intact, when going from Japanese to English.

Don't put too much weight on it. It will most likely be a typical Pentax product, and that would be great news for me.

Alex

One more reason for it is that Ricoh Imaging and Pentax in particular did not want to go into that market segment for obvious reasons. But the user's demand for an FF camera, despite their wishes, was as such that the project was supported.

Can we say the FF from Pentax will come as an act of good will, charity and desire to please loyal customers, and not to compete directly in the market with others. The motives for it are different, and therefore it is reasonable to expect a very unique camera. I think that is important to understand.

Hmm... nope. Neither Ricoh Imaging nor anybody else is in this business for charity.

Alex

I think it's a language barrier.

Could be. I'm Romanian, you're from Italy (though, strangely, Uluru is from Australia) - we're both supposedly communicating using a foreign language.

Charity means benevolent feeling, especially toward those in need or in disfavour. That is the essence of marketing — recognising market's (or one of its segment's) needs and acting in such way to fulfil such needs.

I'm not sure people willing to pay for a FF would be subjects for charity. Poor people, having the money to spend on expensive cameras and lenses!

By the way, I was interpreting it as "voluntary giving of help to those in need". Or, in a non-strict sense, as "voluntary giving".

A FF product line is too expensive to be simply a charity act for the poor us. Mid-term profit, prestige, having a flagship product to raise confidence and sales of lower class products, marketing... they will have such targets.

Alex

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Pentax K-1 Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +6 more
britcam
britcam Senior Member • Posts: 2,457
Re: Dose of reality

steephill wrote:

Those film lenses may have been competitive at the time but that was over 20 years ago. Optical design has moved on a great deal since then. Then there is the impact of lead removal legislation which means new designs are needed. Screw drive AF just isn't going to be acceptable for flagship class lenses so a state of the art in-lens motor system will be needed.

Slapping a fresh coating on 20 year old lenses will get Pentax laughed off the pitch. Pentax isn't competing with its own history but with the current market.

-- hide signature --

Steve

www.pbase.com/steephill

Its the rose coloured lens syndrome ...

-- hide signature --

Regards
Rich S (britcam)

 britcam's gear list:britcam's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Ricoh GR Digital IV Fujifilm X-M1 Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R +6 more
noel2 Contributing Member • Posts: 758
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

MightyMike wrote:

Based on everything i've heard and seen, don't expect a FF camera... at all.

Well said !

 noel2's gear list:noel2's gear list
Sony Alpha a7 II Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 Sony FE 24-240mm F3.5-6.3 OSS Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC Macro OS HSM +23 more
MarBa Forum Member • Posts: 76
Is FF really that much better?

I'd like to know as well ... I also always "wanted" FF ... but ...

I have just spent some time comparing Nikon 610 and K3 and I have to say that I'm not sure I need FF anymore. Sure there are still advantages to FF, like DOF. But as far as pure perpixel image quality goes anything bellow ISO 6400 is almost identical. Above ISO6400 you get one stop advantage on FF. How many pictures do you take above ISO 6400? I take very few.

Best,

Marek

bduncan Contributing Member • Posts: 566
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

I think Pentax FF winers need their own forum..

I'm tired of it.  I suspect that most of us are only limited by our own talent and imagination, not the camera.  The K-3 is an amazing camera, in the right hands.  Get out and do some shooting instead of wining!

-- hide signature --

Bill, Toronto, Canada

 bduncan's gear list:bduncan's gear list
Pentax K-3 Pentax K-5 Pentax K20D Pentax K10D Pentax smc DA* 50-135mm F2.8 ED (IF) SDM +5 more
Peteo
Peteo Senior Member • Posts: 1,865
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

Not at all.

 Peteo's gear list:Peteo's gear list
Pentax MX-1 Pentax K-5 II Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM +13 more
zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 3,422
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

It is not my dream but if they are going to release it I will be happy to acquire it. Though many canikon full frame shooters left their gears up for the fuji system .
--
pentaxian .

 zakaria's gear list:zakaria's gear list
Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 Nikon D750
Alex Sarbu Veteran Member • Posts: 7,501
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

noel2 wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

Based on everything i've heard and seen, don't expect a FF camera... at all.

Well said !

"'First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."

Toshiyuki Kitazawa, Head of Business Development, Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, October 2012.

Alex

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Pentax K-1 Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +6 more
zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 3,422
d645 system is pentax full frame
1

2 years to 5 this system will be as full frame price. I MO.
--
pentaxian .

 zakaria's gear list:zakaria's gear list
Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 Nikon D750
EHDesigns
EHDesigns Contributing Member • Posts: 711
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?
2

zakaria wrote:

... many canikon full frame shooters left their gears up for the fuji system .
--
pentaxian .

Yep, I too would likely buy a FF, but I'd really like to see a K-02 with a K-mount that outperforms the X-T1 and whatever else Fuji may release at Photokina, along with a few lens updates and perhaps a few new ones all with improved focus performance. Even without a FF this fall, I really want to see Ricoh behaving like a contender.

 EHDesigns's gear list:EHDesigns's gear list
Pentax K-5 Pentax K-3 II Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 DG OS HSM Pentax smc DA 55-300mm F4.0-5.8 ED Pentax smc D-FA 100mm F2.8 Macro WR +11 more
John_A_G Veteran Member • Posts: 7,448
interesting...
5

zakaria wrote:

2 years to 5 this system will be as full frame price. I MO.
--
pentaxian .

Why do you think cost will come down so rapidly?

Larger sensor, requiring larger optics and very small production runs.  No manufacturing competition for sensors.  There is nothing driving the cost down on that platform.

Let's take lenses - is the price of full-frame lenses coming down?  Nope, it's going up.  So what makes you think the cost of medium format lenses would come down?

Medium format is medium format.  It's not the "Pentax full frame" because the costs are higher and there is nothing going on in the industry that will bring costs down that significantly.

MF is a niche that some people need.  Remember, one major difference when you suggest "full frame is a niche too..." is that full frame was standard for decades.  And, even for the 8 years that APS-C dominated, Canon and Nikon and even Sigma and Tamron continued to manufacture lenses to a full-frame baseline.

I really don't know if Pentax will offer a full frame.  I still think it's much less important for future success than strong mirrorless performance.  I DO tend to think though that the future of photography will still have full frame sensors at the top end of ILC cameras, with smaller sensor sizes dominating.  But, what I think will be going away is the mirror for many of them.  If Pentax really wants to compete, that's where they need to focus on.  Today's offerings from Fuji, Oly and Sony really do show that mirrorless will be good enough in a much smaller / lighter package for most people.  And all of them are coming out with more and more lenses.

Full frame DSLR market though - I think that's an exercise in failure by Pentax.  As mentioned by others, there are far too many obstacles to Pentax grabbing any real market share of Professionals using the D4/1Dx (note - not talking about amateurs that own those cameras - but the people earning their living wage from photography who use them).

So, Pentax shouldn't be wasting effort trying to catch up to Canon and Nikon full frame DSLRs - they need to catch-up with Sony, Fuji and Oly in mirrorless and start competing with Sony with full-frame mirrorless.

OP Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,414
Re: If you have to ask...

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

I think the people for whom FF is vital have already moved on to other systems.

Sounds fair; but there are people for whom FF is not vital but desirable, and people for whom FF is not yet, but will become vital or desirable.

For those without a vital need for FF, pricing is a part of the equation and the entry barrier for FF is dropping into the range people have been willing to spend in APS-C. I think that changes things for a lot of people.

Thank you
Russell

zakaria
zakaria Veteran Member • Posts: 3,422
Re: interesting...
1

zakaria wrote:

2 years to 5 this system will be as full frame price. I MO.
--
pentaxian .

Why do you think cost will come down so rapidly?

Larger sensor, requiring larger optics and very small production runs.  No manufacturing competition for sensors.  There is nothing driving the cost down on that platform.

Let's take lenses - is the price of full-frame lenses coming down?  Nope, it's going up.  So what makes you think the cost of medium format lenses would come down?

Medium format is medium format.  It's not the "Pentax full frame" because the costs are higher and there is nothing going on in the industry that will bring costs down that significantly.

MF is a niche that some people need.  Remember, one major difference when you suggest "full frame is a niche too..." is that full frame was standard for decades.  And, even for the 8 years that APS-C dominated, Canon and Nikon and even Sigma and Tamron continued to manufacture lenses to a full-frame baseline.

I really don't know if Pentax will offer a full frame.  I still think it's much less important for future success than strong mirrorless performance.  I DO tend to think though that the future of photography will still have full frame sensors at the top end of ILC cameras, with smaller sensor sizes dominating.  But, what I think will be going away is the mirror for many of them.  If Pentax really wants to compete, that's where they need to focus on.  Today's offerings from Fuji, Oly and Sony really do show that mirrorless will be good enough in a much smaller / lighter package for most people.  And all of them are coming out with more and more lenses.

Full frame DSLR market though - I think that's an exercise in failure by Pentax.  As mentioned by others, there are far too many obstacles to Pentax grabbing any real market share of Professionals using the D4/1Dx (note - not talking about amateurs that own those cameras - but the people earning their living wage from photography who use them).

So, Pentax shouldn't be wasting effort trying to catch up to Canon and Nikon full frame DSLRs - they need to catch-up with Sony, Fuji and Oly in mirrorless and start competing with Sony with full-frame mirrorless.

If you go back to the time of 645 d release. .it was 9999$.now look at 645Z price. I think the next generation of pentax 645 will be 6000$.this price is near to d4s. Regarding the lenses. .most of nikon and canon pro lenses are expensive. Time will narrow down the difference. Pentax is famous for its budget cameras..and Sony is building a promising sensors. Pentax and Sony will make it easy.
--
pentaxian .

 zakaria's gear list:zakaria's gear list
Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 Nikon D750
ChazSelf Forum Member • Posts: 88
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

Giklab wrote:

Don't know, don't care.

Same for me. I've never dreamed of a Pentax digital FF. I am delighted with my new K3, the little chance I've had to use it.

BryantP Forum Member • Posts: 94
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?
1

I also am one of the Pentax users/fan that fail to see the obsession with full frame cameras.   What little interest I have in full frame is strictly limited to being able to use my old Nikon AI lenses from my film cameras which were a Nikon FM & FE2.  And for that a good used D700 is more that adequate and barely affordable. So unless Ricoh makes an affordable full frame with a Nikor lense mount I can't see myself being interested.   Although, if they did, I'm sure it would be much more enjoyable to use than any Nikon full frame camera.

BryantP

 BryantP's gear list:BryantP's gear list
Nikon D700 Pentax K-5 Pentax *ist DS Pentax K-3 Pentax smc DA* 16-50mm F2.8 ED AL (IF) SDM +5 more
fakuryu
fakuryu Senior Member • Posts: 1,329
Going full mirroless will be the death of Pentax

John_A_G wrote:

zakaria wrote:

2 years to 5 this system will be as full frame price. I MO.
--
pentaxian .

Why do you think cost will come down so rapidly?

Larger sensor, requiring larger optics and very small production runs. No manufacturing competition for sensors. There is nothing driving the cost down on that platform.

Let's take lenses - is the price of full-frame lenses coming down? Nope, it's going up. So what makes you think the cost of medium format lenses would come down?

So, Pentax shouldn't be wasting effort trying to catch up to Canon and Nikon full frame DSLRs - they need to catch-up with Sony, Fuji and Oly in mirrorless and start competing with Sony with full-frame mirrorless.

New lens designs will be required for that route, even if the K01 was mirrorless the flange distance was still the same hence the thickness of the K01 as a mirrorless camera (which is still a good camera BTW).

IMHO Pentax should concentrate in updating the lens lineup with that new DC motor and HD coatings.

-- hide signature --

There is no such thing a "Pro" level gear, just Pro level work.

 fakuryu's gear list:fakuryu's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7 Pentax K-r Pentax K-5 II Pentax Q Olympus PEN E-PL1
justin23 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,347
Re: Going full mirroless will be the death of Pentax

fakuryu wrote:

John_A_G wrote:

zakaria wrote:

2 years to 5 this system will be as full frame price. I MO.
--
pentaxian .

Why do you think cost will come down so rapidly?

Larger sensor, requiring larger optics and very small production runs. No manufacturing competition for sensors. There is nothing driving the cost down on that platform.

Let's take lenses - is the price of full-frame lenses coming down? Nope, it's going up. So what makes you think the cost of medium format lenses would come down?

So, Pentax shouldn't be wasting effort trying to catch up to Canon and Nikon full frame DSLRs - they need to catch-up with Sony, Fuji and Oly in mirrorless and start competing with Sony with full-frame mirrorless.

New lens designs will be required for that route, even if the K01 was mirrorless the flange distance was still the same hence the thickness of the K01 as a mirrorless camera (which is still a good camera BTW).

IMHO Pentax should concentrate in updating the lens lineup with that new DC motor and HD coatings.

-- hide signature --

There is no such thing a "Pro" level gear, just Pro level work.

I agree I'd like to see the 3 lenses on the roadmap appear first.  Lots of people carry on about the DOF advantage, yet I see a lot of portraits with shallow DOF taken from APS-C cameras.

Yes there are advantages, but are they worth the extra cost and size that a K mount FF would be? if that was the case no one would buy m4/3 cameras that is for sure. I still think the main reason we haven't got a camera is due to the small market and lack of profit Ricoh would make. Especially when you look at cameras that were criticized heavily on here, yet sell like hotcakes in Japan!

-- hide signature --

Justin
--------------------------------------------------------
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/justinwatson

 justin23's gear list:justin23's gear list
Pentax K-5 Pentax Q Pentax K-3 Pentax 01 Standard Prime Pentax 03 Fish-Eye +11 more
moving_comfort
moving_comfort Veteran Member • Posts: 8,205
FF != "pro"
5

Phixer323 wrote:.... I'm making a large leap here, but I bet I would get pretty good odds in Vegas that the majority of that number are professionals.

Not even close. There are no enough 'pros' in the US to account for D4 sales here alone, much less all FF cameras.

The FF market is an enthusiast/hobbiest market, largely. Pentax (or Fuji, or whoever) doesn't even need to worry about the 'pro' market if they move into FF, just like Nike doesn't depend on the sales from the NBA for their shoes - the NBA (etc) serves as an extremely visible and effective marketing tool, not as an important sales channel volume.

-- hide signature --

Here are a few of my favorite things...
---> http://www.flickr.com/photos/95095968@N00/sets/72157626171532197/

 moving_comfort's gear list:moving_comfort's gear list
Nikon D800 Pentax K20D Nikon AF Nikkor 180mm f/2.8D ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 20mm f/2.8D Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D +10 more
Leandros S Senior Member • Posts: 1,970
Re: Dose of reality - sure, how about that?
2

steephill wrote:

Those film lenses may have been competitive at the time but that was over 20 years ago. Optical design has moved on a great deal since then. Then there is the impact of lead removal legislation which means new designs are needed. Screw drive AF just isn't going to be acceptable for flagship class lenses so a state of the art in-lens motor system will be needed.

Slapping a fresh coating on 20 year old lenses will get Pentax laughed off the pitch. Pentax isn't competing with its own history but with the current market.

Yes, it could be as bad as being told that "our" apertures are too narrow, or that we don't have enough super-tele or tilt-shift options. Now, wait a minute...

So the new lenses need a new motor, huh? What about the old lenses? Or the fact that the Sony A7 series is ACTUALLY SELLING? Some people are buying it just so they can finally use their FA Limiteds properly, and there's no autofocus at all in that pairing. (At least so far, but what are the chances of such an adapter appearing?)

My overall impression is that we like to give ourselves excuses.

-- hide signature --

No amount of perceived entitlement can replace actual expertise.

miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 6,295
Re: Is this the year Pentax makes or breaks your FF dream?

Well...

Asahi man is suspiciously quiet for the last 3 months...

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53456183

If so it will definitely be my next camera.

And something will have to replace my Sigma 8-16...

-- hide signature --

--

-----------------------------------------------
Miles Green
Pentaxian with chronic LBA
Corfu, Greece

 miles green's gear list:miles green's gear list
Pentax K-1 Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc FA 31mm F1.8 AL Limited Pentax smc FA 43mm F1.9 Limited Pentax smc FA 77mm 1.8 Limited +8 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads