Not scientific, very casual Quattro vs. Merrill test

Started Jul 11, 2014 | Discussions
Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 7,381
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download
1

Thanks for your efforts.  What a cynical group.

Gesture Veteran Member • Posts: 7,381
Re: Not scientific, very casual Quattro vs. Merrill test
1

It needed an integrated viewfinderreally badly and an exp comp dial would have helped as would an actual aperture ring around the lens.

Yes. Same could be said for many of our latest mirrorless cameras. The lowly Nikon P60 had such an integral, clearly inexpensive EVF but the idea was abandoned until quite recently with one of the Panasonic models. Something like that would be very useful on any larger format mirrorless or quality compact P&S. And it clearly can be done. The Olympus quality compact have the ring around the lens, as do some other compacts, as it works wonderfully.

ChristianHass Veteran Member • Posts: 3,146
Re: Imaging-Resource seems to disagree?

Tiger1 wrote:

The test is unfair. The SD1 had a 17-50mm lens on it which is nowhere near as good as the 30mm F2.8 lens. Even the DP1M lens doesn't compete.

On the other hand if you process the raw files you'll find the results a lot closer. Even the Quattro's file is much better than the OOC JPEG.

The resolution seems to be higher for sure, but the red napkin looks very Bayer'ish compared to how it looks with the Merrill or even the old DP1.

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 ChristianHass's gear list:ChristianHass's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Sony RX100 VI Fujifilm XF10 Sony a7R II Tamron 24mm F2.8 Di III OSD +1 more
Hng Contributing Member • Posts: 645
Re: Not scientific, very casual Quattro vs. Merrill test
1

MarkWW wrote:

Hng wrote:

MarkWW wrote:

mypic wrote:

Can you explained more about this special effect from the Merrills? Is this the false details some people talked about in the past. I'm just curious about it that's all.

Scroll down about halfway and look at the photo of the model, the one that's closeup of the eyes.

http://www.markwiggin.com/b/Sigma_DP3_Merrill_Review

Look at the texture of the skin, look at the hairs on the nose. It's not "realistic" it's something more than realistic. The later Phase One image looks more realistic. The Phase One image is more like what skin looks like to me. Now it's easy enough to dial this back in post, but you can't fake that look if the detail isn't there in the first place.

With a bit mastering of ACR, push max Blacks then compensate Shadows, combined with Whites and Exposure, you can get more natural skin texture. Its beauty of ACR that SPP has no such extra controls besides Clarity for micro-contrast adjustment.

I just import the TIFF into Photoshop and then use skin smoothing plugins etc. to pull back on the "too much detail."

I plan on (in the next few weeks) doing a shoot designed around the Merrill love of detail that I'm really looking forward to.

Another way of smoothing skin is Fill Light -0.3, try.

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: Not scientific, very casual Quattro vs. Merrill test

hold value? Merrill already lost half it's worth since last year. also, it is not really sought after because there price remain cheap now and the supply remain constant. there maybe a spike in sales of Merrill but that is because of the price drop and not because people only came to know about the Merrill. anyhow, it sales though still does not rival that of other mirrorless compact cameras due to it being a niche camera.

Johan Borg Senior Member • Posts: 2,994
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

MarkWW wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

MarkWW wrote:

Like I said, any sharpening done after SPP can be done to any camera so there's no point to it for the purposes of a comparison.

Actually there is.

The claim is that Merrill has something other cameras lack. If this "something" can be added in post processing, then it is not as bad as if it cant.

By looking at the photos, I have no sense that it can be added back in post. It's as plain as day - one image has bricks, the other does not. No amount of sharpening in post will add in something that the sensor simply did not capture.

Except if you look at the same bricks when developing the RAW file in SPP Monochrome mode, the detail is also "gone" (similar low contrast as in Quattro), so clearly SPP is applying a local sharpening to the Merrill files that it doesn't apply to Quattro.

And yes, I'm saying that the Quattro sensor absolutely did not capture as much detail as the Merrill sensor. How a Bayer sensor would compare - I don't know, I'd need a direct comparison image.

What we really need is RAW data from the Q and the M to compare and an updated version of Roland's excellent X3F Tools may give us just that. I'm pretty sure the Quattro captures just as much detail as Merrill - as witnessed by the less cooked SPP Monochrome mode.

Let's see, maybe we'll get a "FOV Classic Contrast" color mode someday

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 29,087
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

MarkWW wrote:

By looking at the photos, I have no sense that it can be added back in post. It's as plain as day - one image has bricks, the other does not. No amount of sharpening in post will add in something that the sensor simply did not capture.

Are you sure? Have you tried to increase the contrast and looked if there are no bricks hidden there? NOTE - looking at the JPEG is not good enough as it has been converted to 8 bits.

And yes, I'm saying that the Quattro sensor absolutely did not capture as much detail as the Merrill sensor. How a Bayer sensor would compare - I don't know, I'd need a direct comparison image.

"not capture as much detail" is ambiguous. Quattro has higher resolution, so it captures more detail in a sense. Merrill has a higher local contrast, so the details are more visible, maybe even invisible on Quattro.

Now, I'm not saying that this is either good or bad, just that it is. If you want the Merrill look, get the Merrill. If you want the Quattro look, get the Quattro. If you want the Polaroid look, get a Polaroid.

That is the easiest of course. But ... what happens if SPP adds a "Merrill look" for Quattro?

 Roland Karlsson's gear list:Roland Karlsson's gear list
Sony RX100 III Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma dp2 Quattro Pentax K-3 Pentax K-1 +14 more
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,857
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Are you sure? Have you tried to increase the contrast and looked if there are no bricks hidden there? NOTE - looking at the JPEG is not good enough as it has been converted to 8 bits.

Well, i am sure. You can push the quattro files until it hurts, you get lots of artifacts and noise but you never get the same look, the same tonal separation, like what you get with the Merrill.
Fortunately, as mentioned, with Merrill you can get the smooth look of quattro by using the monochrome mode for the details/rendering and adding a color version as a layer in photoshop.
Thats the advantage of Merrill.

That is the easiest of course. But ... what happens if SPP adds a "Merrill look" for Quattro?

That would be awesome 

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 29,087
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

maceoQ wrote:

Well, i am sure. You can push the quattro files until it hurts, you get lots of artifacts and noise but you never get the same look, the same tonal separation, like what you get with the Merrill.
Fortunately, as mentioned, with Merrill you can get the smooth look of quattro by using the monochrome mode for the details/rendering and adding a color version as a layer in photoshop.
Thats the advantage of Merrill.

But, you lose color.

Is that not a little strange? You get rough and high contrast detail in color and smoothness in B&W.

That is the easiest of course. But ... what happens if SPP adds a "Merrill look" for Quattro?

That would be awesome

If you will get that mode depends on two things

  1. It is possible. Maybe the Merrill do record things invisible in Quattro.
  2. Sigma decides to do so.
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Sony RX100 III Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma dp2 Quattro Pentax K-3 Pentax K-1 +14 more
MarkWW
MarkWW Contributing Member • Posts: 881
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

Roland Karlsson wrote:

MarkWW wrote:

By looking at the photos, I have no sense that it can be added back in post. It's as plain as day - one image has bricks, the other does not. No amount of sharpening in post will add in something that the sensor simply did not capture.

Are you sure? Have you tried to increase the contrast and looked if there are no bricks hidden there? NOTE - looking at the JPEG is not good enough as it has been converted to 8 bits.

I was looking at the RAW file in SPP and then later exported as a TIFF to lightroom. Increasing contrast would increase overall contrast and why would I want to change the overall tonality of the picture just to pick up more detail?

And yes, I'm saying that the Quattro sensor absolutely did not capture as much detail as the Merrill sensor. How a Bayer sensor would compare - I don't know, I'd need a direct comparison image.

"not capture as much detail" is ambiguous. Quattro has higher resolution, so it captures more detail in a sense. Merrill has a higher local contrast, so the details are more visible, maybe even invisible on Quattro.

Now, I'm not saying that this is either good or bad, just that it is. If you want the Merrill look, get the Merrill. If you want the Quattro look, get the Quattro. If you want the Polaroid look, get a Polaroid.

That is the easiest of course. But ... what happens if SPP adds a "Merrill look" for Quattro?

If it exists in the camera in the first place and if they do that. But really all your speculation is not based in fact - download the RAW files and examine them for yourself rather than telling me that I'm wrong - download the RAW file and you tell me if you can recover the bricks from that scene with the Quattro.

I'm not saying you can't (actually, I am saying you probably can't, I wasn't able to, not that I tried extremely hard). But I'm not going to buy a camera based on "maybe" this and "if I work really hard at it" that - I want a camera that gives me what I want straight out of the camera or at least close to it.

Of course maybe the Quattro is what I want straight out of the camera, I do quite like some of the photos I've seen here, all I'm saying is that it's not a Merrill. I don't know why that's so hard for some of you to swallow. Either it has the "classic 4 megapixel look, which the Merrill totally didn't have" or it "can totally do Merrill, maybe if Sigma decides it can" or whatever other nonsense keeps being spouted about the mythical properties of the Quattro. It is what it is, no more no less.

Want a Merrill, get a Merrill. Want a Quattro, get a Quattro. But don't buy a Quattro because you want a Merrill.

 MarkWW's gear list:MarkWW's gear list
Ricoh GR Digital III Ricoh GR Sigma DP3 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 Sigma DP2 Merrill +8 more
Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 29,087
Re: Raw files for download .x3fs for download

MarkWW wrote:

I was looking at the RAW file in SPP and then later exported as a TIFF to lightroom. Increasing contrast would increase overall contrast and why would I want to change the overall tonality of the picture just to pick up more detail?

Just as a check - to see if something is there or if the bricks really are not recorded.

If it exists in the camera in the first place and if they do that. But really all your speculation is not based in fact - download the RAW files and examine them for yourself rather than telling me that I'm wrong - download the RAW file and you tell me if you can recover the bricks from that scene with the Quattro.

Maybe current SPP can not.

I'm not saying you can't (actually, I am saying you probably can't, I wasn't able to, not that I tried extremely hard). But I'm not going to buy a camera based on "maybe" this and "if I work really hard at it" that - I want a camera that gives me what I want straight out of the camera or at least close to it.

Of course maybe the Quattro is what I want straight out of the camera, I do quite like some of the photos I've seen here, all I'm saying is that it's not a Merrill. I don't know why that's so hard for some of you to swallow. Either it has the "classic 4 megapixel look, which the Merrill totally didn't have" or it "can totally do Merrill, maybe if Sigma decides it can" or whatever other nonsense keeps being spouted about the mythical properties of the Quattro. It is what it is, no more no less.

Want a Merrill, get a Merrill. Want a Quattro, get a Quattro. But don't buy a Quattro because you want a Merrill.

 Roland Karlsson's gear list:Roland Karlsson's gear list
Sony RX100 III Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma dp2 Quattro Pentax K-3 Pentax K-1 +14 more
Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 42,710
Very good test - tough colors on the Quattro

Red. Yellow. That will show chroma resolution loss for sure, though having fine threads of cloth would also do this even more.

I think I am with you or whoever else said it- a good Bayer AA less camera would match (or exceed actually) this in these situations. The Quattro does preserve some of the signature of Foveon at its max resolution, but something gets a bit lost too in "presence" if you will.

But i don't mind shooting it at the 4.9MP resolution, which would look completely Foveon.  As a camera though, if you think about the lens it has, I still thin it's a good value at the asking price.

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Lord metroid
Lord metroid Regular Member • Posts: 476
Re: Imaging-Resource seems to disagree?

ChristianHass wrote:

Tiger1 wrote:

The test is unfair. The SD1 had a 17-50mm lens on it which is nowhere near as good as the 30mm F2.8 lens. Even the DP1M lens doesn't compete.

On the other hand if you process the raw files you'll find the results a lot closer. Even the Quattro's file is much better than the OOC JPEG.

The resolution seems to be higher for sure, but the red napkin looks very Bayer'ish compared to how it looks with the Merrill or even the old DP1.

Wow even though one can not see the individual threads of the napkins in the SIGMA DP1 image, the red pattern is obviously rendered perfectly. Why is SIGMA Quattro not able to produce such a pattern?

Where did you get the DP1 image from? I want to check other cameras as well.

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Sigma DP2s Sigma dp2 Quattro
Gate bois Senior Member • Posts: 1,523
Re: Imaging-Resource seems to disagree?

Crop 100 interpolated 36Mpix;

DP1 Merrill:

Dp2 quattro

A7r:

Click on the images in my gallery to see 100

ChristianHass Veteran Member • Posts: 3,146
Re: Imaging-Resource seems to disagree?

Lord metroid wrote:

Where did you get the DP1 image from? I want to check other cameras as well.

Imaging Resource, same place as the others. Just search for the review of the original DP1 and find the thumbnails.

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JackM2 New Member • Posts: 13
Re: Imaging-Resource seems to disagree?

You have the camera labels for the DP1M and Quattro backwards. The top image is from the Quattro, the middle image is from the DP1M.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

Gate bois wrote:

Crop 100 interpolated 36Mpix;

DP1 Merrill:

Dp2 quattro

A7r:

Click on the images in my gallery to see 100

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