GH4 and 14-140 stabilization issue

lancespring wrote:

I've never seen any discussions on any forums focusing on this lens having any compatibility problem with the GH4. It was released several months before the GH4, so one would expect that Panasonic would have most thoroughly tested the lens with the GH4. To date, Panasonic has not released any firmware updates for either this lens or the GH4

Most discussions that I have seen regarding jittery video from the GH4 have revolved around computer hardware and software issues. Problems with underpowered computers with slow video adapter, slow hard drives, and/or slower processor. As well as what video player is being used and what video codecs are installed on the computer.

Here is a test video that a fellow created to test how well a computer and its software is performing in playing video. Download it and play it on your computer. Does the line move smoothly across your screen, or does it stutter at all?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16587899/for_pv/1920x1080_60p_1_pixel_per_frame_ProRes_422.mov

What software do you use to play video clips on your computer? Do you have a pretty high powered system? What resolution is your monitor?

Perhaps you do have a bad lens, and need to have it replaced. If you feel that you have definitely eliminated all other variables, and that the problem only occurs when using this lens, then exchanging the lens sounds like a reasonable thing to try.
.

Thank you for helping and for good advices.

I tested this issue so that I shooted the same scenes with both (14-42 and 14-140) lenses. I then watched those with potplayer. I have 6-core AMD computer and it shows every 2k and 4k videos fine. So it is not the camera or computer. It is lens related.

My 45-200, 100-300 and 14-42 MEGA OIS lenses shoots pleasing clips. The new POWER OIS superzoom looks fine at first but soon the disturbing vibration spoils the experience. OIS is working because it smooths big movements very well and walking with it when shooting video is better than with the old one. It is quite OK when I move or pan camera. When I try to get steady shot it vibrates fast, mostly in corners. When I shoot with tripod and OIS on it is not vibrating. My high end plasmatv shows every movement perfectly and unforgivenly. I think that the issue is milder in small LCD monitor. I hope that the lens is broken but I fear it is not.

Can anyone with old and new lenses confirm my problem.

a couple of days ago, i remarked on the jitter in that chicago thread, that you just posted to.

since the jitter is visible in some of that vimeo footage, it can't be a local playback problem.

it seems that you and i are the only people who noticed it.

mark did not use the 14-140 lens in that clip(?), which would indicate that the problem could be bigger than just one defective lens.

so rather than send it back, i would try mounting it on another gh4, if possible.

it might help if you posted a short clip of the problem.

osv wrote:

a couple of days ago, i remarked on the jitter in that chicago thread, that you just posted to.

since the jitter is visible in some of that vimeo footage, it can't be a local playback problem.

it seems that you and i are the only people who noticed it.

mark did not use the 14-140 lens in that clip(?), which would indicate that the problem could be bigger than just one defective lens.

so rather than send it back, i would try mounting it on another gh4, if possible.

it might help if you posted a short clip of the problem.

Some examples of fast vibration: Maybe later I can post my tests too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liT3NfPksQ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOb2kzYklc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1TZoTVglk (at 0:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QRHqrcQMik (at 1:13)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXXOHcwA1PU

Same observations from:

http://forum.slashcam.de/viewtopic.php?p=658591

Google translations from german

@kgerster:

"Have recently the Panasonic 14-140mm. The main reason for buying was of course the zoom range to extend my 14-42mm. But had hoped for a better stabilization. The 14-42mm is according to Panasonic equipped with a Mega OIS. , the 14-140mm with Power OIS DC doubled compensate for camera shake promises Panasonic. The greater my disappointment when I compared with the 14-42mm. I see no advantage for the 14-140mm. ..... It is virtually impossible from the hand to take video that do not wobble. I do not mean gross wobble. It this fine, unpleasant to be regarded wobble. Especially "vertical rotation". The 14-42mm is there even a little better.Unfortunately. ......Too bad that the stabilizers of camcorders are soooo much better than the built-in lenses.

@sportster:

"I think that compared to the Mega OIS of the Power OIS brings improvements at most in photo mode. For video, the "improvement" cast so that the quite natural-looking large-scale shaking of the entire video image is replaced by a behavior in which individual elements of the subject are indeed stable, but might move against each other dynamically.This leads to an unsteady image impression one might almost be called fibrillation. Perhaps this impression is also created by the limited sampling rate of the sensor........ It only helps a stable support or a tripod. I myself have already tested several Panasonic lenses and have come to the conclusion that me the Mega OIS was better for video. The Power OIS  seems to be implemented differently, depending on the main target group of the lens (photographer or videographer). Most striking is the negative video-flicker effect in my opinion just the sharpest and most expensive lens, the 35-100 / 2.8. For this affect the stability of this lens in photo mode phenomenal. Best behave in the video PZ lenses, so the 14-42 PZ and PZ 45-175. Especially the small and lightweight PZ 14-42 produces the quietest video images, even though one would think ought to that larger and heavier lenses in the advantage would be. The new 14-140 lies with its implementation of the Power OIS somewhere in between. The old 14-140 with its Mega OIS produced slightly smoother video recording, ........ the Power OIS effect is barely disturbing due to the wide angle characteristics, but is also visible when one pays close attention.

LingoDingo wrote:

What frame rate and shutter speeds are you using when you shoot ?

I use 1080/60P 100mbs. I tested today all shutter speeds from 1/60 to 1/1000 and apertures 3.5 to 22. There is no meaningful difference when using all the exposure combinations. Very slow shutter speeds obviously smooths image vibration a bit.

It is kind of funny because when I move or pan camera there are no problems but when I try to hold camera still and steady the POWER OIS vibrates video. It calms down when I hold camera very steady with help of walls or tables.

Like I said earlier my older MEGA OIS lenses are very steady when holding camera still and unmoved.

I am a little worried because I just paid 2000 euros (about 2600 dollars) for a kit which shoots unwatchable vibrating videos.

LingoDingo wrote:

Vesku wrote:

LingoDingo wrote:

What frame rate and shutter speeds are you using when you shoot ?

I use 1080/60P 100mbs. I tested today all shutter speeds from 1/60 to 1/1000 and apertures 3.5 to 22. There is no meaningful difference when using all the exposure combinations. Very slow shutter speeds obviously smooths image vibration a bit.

For frame rates up to 30fps, "180 degree" shutter is the rule of thumb for film-making, which translates to 1/(2 * Fps). So for 24fps, it's 1/48th second shutter.

With the GH4 you can set the camera to use xx degree shutter settings as opposed to traditional photography shutter speeds.

For frame rates over 30fps, the standard shutter formula becomes 1/Fps, so it's 1/60th second for 60fps.

With my GH3 I use 1/40th second shutter for 24fps, because the slower shutter creates a little more motion-blur which helps to smooth out motion jitter.

I find non-electronic lenses are better when it comes to eliminating jitter, which I think is mainly due to the softer image they produce, so the jitter is not as obvious. In post I do not sharpen footage shot with Lumix lenses ( and I set my GHx cameras to as little sharpening as possible when shooting ), while with non-electronic lenses ( mainly Nikon AI-S glass ) I add a fair bit of sharpening in post.

I am a little worried because I just paid 2000 euros (about 2600 dollars) for a kit which shoots unwatchable vibrating videos.

Try other lenses ( especially non-electronic lenses ), as things can look very different with another lens.

Thanks for lecture of shutter rules. I still like to break those rules sometimes. Anyway my issue is not related of exposure values. OIS jitter is different than motion jitter caused by slow framerate.

I shoot handheld so I need stabilization. I dont like soft video. The new 14-140 is a fine lens - great photos, fast AF, very good contrast, 10x zoom. I just must figure out a solution for fast OIS jitter in static video shots. Dont suggest tripod.

Markr041 wrote:

The jitter is a big issue for 4K, and not just from your lens. Do you shoot using the viewfinder or the lcd? Using the viewfinder up against your face adds stability compared with holding the camera with arms extended to view the lcd. There are holding techniques that help with stability. If you do not want to use tripod/monopod you might try practicing these techniques. Maybe they work, maybe not.

I am with you; I cannot carry around a tripod.

Thanks for feed back. I briefly thought I am again alone with my issues.

I have tried shooting with EVF and with several holding positions with LCD. I was surprised when my normal quite steady holding which worked fine with 14-42mm MEGA OIS was not steady enough for the new lens even in 14mm. I must hold camera very very carefully and steady if I want to kill that fast vibration. Even shooting with EVF is not helping much.

The new 14-140 has great stabilization for movement but in some reason it is very hard to get good static shots.

When shooting 4k handheld with some sharpening video is very restless because sharpening pulsates according to vibration in frame. Slow shutter and zero sharpening is way to go I think but I like sharp videos so there is a dilemma.

LingoDingo wrote:

Vesku wrote:

Anyway my issue is not related of exposure values. OIS jitter is different than motion jitter caused by slow framerate.

I've never seen anything I would call "OIS jitter" when shooting with any of my Lumix OIS lenses ( 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 lens, 12-35mm f/2.8 lens, 35-100mm f/2.8 lens ), though I know that the OIS has it's limits. I consider OIS to be a jitter "smoother" for hand-held work, but I still use other camera stabilizers when shooting with an OIS lens. ( even a good pistol-grip is enough to get a clean shot if I'm not too tired )

What are you using to watch your videos. My issue is seen clearly in big quality TV (50" plasma). Motion handling in computer monitors are much weaker so it is harder to see issues.

I owned the original 14-140mm Lumix lens for about 1 week, and immediately sold it because I could not stand the slow aperture of the lens ( my 14-45mm is for my B-roll camera ) or how un-smooth the zoom was for me. ( way too stiff and jerky for me )

I might buy the version II 14-140mm Lumix lens as I'm hoping it behaves better than the original lens did. ( I am becoming very fond of Nikon AI-S lenses with SpeedBoosters, but this requires a very stable camera rig, so hand-holding can be a bit iffy )

I shoot handheld so I need stabilization. I dont like soft video. The new 14-140 is a fine lens - great photos, fast AF, very good contrast, 10x zoom. I just must figure out a solution for fast OIS jitter in static video shots. Dont suggest tripod.

Keep in mind that most of the "jitter" you are seeing is from the person holding the camera, so if the lens stabilization is not enough, then you've got to add some sort of stabilizing rig for the camera. ( I can get by with the 12-35mm f/2.8 with a pistol-grip using just the OIS, but 35mm is a LOT shorter than 140mm )

But there is no jitter in my 14-42, 45-200 and 100-300 MEGA OIS lenses. Even 300mm handheld is pleasing to watch, often better than 14-140 at 14mm !?

What about a half-decent mono-pod ?

I have tried but I find it more difficult to follow movements with it and I dont want to carry a big rod.

Vesku wrote:

When I try to get steady shot it vibrates fast, mostly in corners.

I suspect you are seeing the same thing I saw with my GH4 and 14-140 II. You said it is vibrating in the corners, which tells me it isn't OIS at all (since that would vibrate all around the image).

I found, with static scenes, the GH4 and 14-140 would annoyings try to refocus periodically. The 14-140 breathes (changes focal length) when focusing, causing the entire scene to pulse in size, making it fairly useless for AF.  This is especially noticeable at wider focal lengths.

I actually found the OIS itself quite good, slightly better than the AX100, but the unstable focusing with the 14-140 made it a no-go for my casual video use.  The AX100 fit my non-pro casual needs better.

I discussed it a little here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53663681

LingoDingo wrote:

Vesku wrote:

LingoDingo wrote:

Vesku wrote:

Anyway my issue is not related of exposure values. OIS jitter is different than motion jitter caused by slow framerate.

I've never seen anything I would call "OIS jitter" when shooting with any of my Lumix OIS lenses ( 14-45mm f/3.5-5.6 lens, 12-35mm f/2.8 lens, 35-100mm f/2.8 lens ), though I know that the OIS has it's limits. I consider OIS to be a jitter "smoother" for hand-held work, but I still use other camera stabilizers when shooting with an OIS lens. ( even a good pistol-grip is enough to get a clean shot if I'm not too tired )

What are you using to watch your videos. My issue is seen clearly in big quality TV (50" plasma). Motion handling in computer monitors are much weaker so it is harder to see issues.

Depends on the delivery platform. For most corporate videos that are going to be watched on the web or a standard 32 to 50 inch flat-screen I punch in to 1:1 pixel mode to check sharpness as I edit.

If it's going to be shown in a small theater, then I visit a designer friend that owns a 70 inch Sharp LED TV set at his house, to check the final edit.

I haven't shot much 4K yet, but I imagine you won't get full 4K resolution without a very stable camera, which often means a good tripod or jib to mount the camera on.

Keep in mind that most of the "jitter" you are seeing is from the person holding the camera, so if the lens stabilization is not enough, then you've got to add some sort of stabilizing rig for the camera. ( I can get by with the 12-35mm f/2.8 with a pistol-grip using just the OIS, but 35mm is a LOT shorter than 140mm )

But there is no jitter in my 14-42, 45-200 and 100-300 MEGA OIS lenses. Even 300mm handheld is pleasing to watch, often better than 14-140 at 14mm !?

That seems really odd. Why would this lens be so much worse than the other zooms ?

I completely believe what you are saying, but it does seem strange that Panasonic can get it right on other lenses but not this one ?

If he's seeing the issues at 14mm, I'll assume again it's focus pulsing that he's having issues with rather than the ois.    The lens design of the 14-140 II is such that the focal length changes with focus (breathing), so the whole image pulses/zooms when the focus makes small adjustments.   If the lens didn't breathe, you wouldn't notice the focus pulsing much.

So the other lenses may not breathe when focusing and/or may not be as susceptible to pulsing the focus as the 14-140.

I had to return the whole setup, since I wanted an all in one zoom for casual video use, but the focus pulsing on static scenes drove me batty.

LingoDingo wrote:

RicksAstro wrote:

If he's seeing the issues at 14mm, I'll assume again it's focus pulsing that he's having issues with rather than the ois.

...But does this lens show "focus pulsing" when in manual focus mode ?

Or is it only an AF issue ?

I could live with it if it was only an AF issue, as I almost never use AF for video work.

I thought it fist too but It is not focus pulsing. I tested it without AF and it vibrates same way. Vibration shows sideways (image shifts left and right and up and down rapidly but very little). It is not back and forth.