Some new infos about dp2Q from the touch and try event. + JPEG samples from Yodobashi and MapCamera

Started Jun 19, 2014 | Discussions
HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is
1

DMillier wrote:

Love the optimism but the d800 cameras are successful money spinners and will continue to be even if not upgraded for a while. Sigma won't put a dent in that no matter how good the quattro might be. Still niche and will continue to be unless Sigma flood the market with viable options at a half dozen price points. One camera (even with 3 focal length options) won't get significant traction. Nikon are still selling millions even in today's contracting market, Sigma are still selling thousands. It takes more than a good camera to be successful.

Without speaking about other APS-C.

Just got an XT-1 + 35f1.4 + Zeiss touit 12mm + 18/55... this is an another world by far. IQ wise, it is maybe not what can churn out a merrill but at least you can do extremely good photos in EVERY condition (even more than my D700/D800). And I use it since some hours now and it is sharp, very sharp. Full light-room support, no strange things in foliage or whatever ...

I'm not an EVF guy, this is the first one. !!!!!!!! omg it is good, soooo good ... On par with the leica S.

A lot of SIGMA extremists should try one one day. They will probably let the DP/SD on the shelves for a while.

Oooo ... and color wise ... against Fuji, SIGMA is out of order by an extremely large margin. The color king atm is fuji (and MF). other brand should learn from them.

It was a bet to go in an another brands than the 4 I already use but I will probably throw one or two away. (This little thing is soo powerful that I might throw away the D700 and the D800 and just keeping the lenses).

The DP3m is now my official B&W only camera and nothing more.

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Mike Gerstner Veteran Member • Posts: 4,188
Re: Perhaps a better treatment.......

BuckieJoe wrote:

But but... those blotches in the water!

I didn't notice the blotches on the middle right edge, thanks for pointing them out.  I did increase the green saturation in ACR to try and get some more color into the trees.  Here's another without that.  "I thnk" it might be a little better than what the merrills produce in the "noise in the shadows" department, but time will tell.

Thanks, Mike

http://www.pbase.com/nidoba/image/156197037/original

DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 20,453
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

I ought to compare my Dp2M to the XE1 just for the sake of it.

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HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is
1

DMillier wrote:

I ought to compare my Dp2M to the XE1 just for the sake of it.

In term of usability to make a photo (and I repeat, very good IQ wise photo) , your DP2m will make 5 turns above your head before flying to the river.

So yes, you will sacrifice "ultimate sharpness" but you will win in all other points that make a photo possible or not.

Just need to buy a novoflex adaptor to plug Nikkor lens I have. Can't wait to use the 50f1.2 or the 180/2.8 ED if on it.

P.S : You will jettison your tripod too

6400 ISO with the trout lens. Jpeg

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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 20,453
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

I don't have any fuji lenses.  I have a 35/2 Zeiss contax G and a 90/2.8 Zeiss contax g, Rokkor 50mm/1.4,  200mm/4 Nikon, 24/2.8 Miranda (Cosina), tokina 28-70.

Just did a quick comparison in the back garden with the 35/2.  Surprisingly close for detail actually (although the contax lens is 5mm longer, which helps).

One really interesting thing is that the DP2M turns shadow areas almost monochrome.  You don't notice so much without comparing to another camera but the shadows are close to B&W. Interesting.

The Dp2M's strength is in the rendering of rough surfaces (like stone). That's where it will find a niche for me. I think it will hard for other cameras to produce the "crunchy" surface texture of the DP2M.

Operationally, the XE1, whilst having its critics, is a lot easier to use handheld. For example, in the test shot I just did, I could not see the target area for the AF point on the LCD, it was completely black even when magnified.  The XE1 EVF revealed the target area very clearly which allowed me to frame the shot more easily.

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"...while I am tempted to bludgeon you, I would rather have you come away with an improved understanding of how these sensors work" ---- Eric Fossum
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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 20,453
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is
1

A lesson we could all take to heart, I think! It's just too tempting to take pot shots...

ps

I'm not making fun of your English or typing here, I was genuinely amused by your accidental pun:  "suited university".  "Suited" means "wearing a suit", something that is just about the last thing I would associate with university.  Good one

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RitterRunkel
RitterRunkel Regular Member • Posts: 154
Re: Seriously?

Scottelly wrote:

You CAN NOT expect to do much better with a JPEG.

Did you see Mike Gerstner's edit?

There is PLENTY of color in that image . . . considering what is normal for such scenes. Don't forget that scenes in shadow,

There is no reason why dark areas shouldn't have color because of JPEG. Of course you have to reduce color to 8 bit per channel, quantization takes together some color information and SNR is worse in dark areas - but it's still a color image and each pixel should be colorful. Not vivid, not bright. JPEG cannot be the explanation for a background almost being monochrome and right in the thick of it maintaining some green. To me that's clearly a flaw of the camera / image export. Usually JPEGs still contain color and color seperation in the shadows.

But since this flaw is known from the Merrills, I hope we will be able to choose ourselves in SPP either to export with colorless shadows or with colorful noisy ones. Without RAW and SPP 6 all I wanted to state is this visible lack of improvement. Btw I have the same difficulties to understand how this cannot be seen as you have with me expecting it to be better. ^^

Mike's edit is more balanced than Rick's. I think Rick only wanted to show the brightened shadows, regardless the rest of the image. But: Both versions are horrible regarding color, sorry. As said, it's not their fault, but also not fault of JPEG ... rather it's cam hardware or export settings.

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HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

DMillier wrote:

I don't have any fuji lenses. I have a 35/2 Zeiss contax G and a 90/2.8 Zeiss contax g, Rokkor 50mm/1.4, 200mm/4 Nikon, 24/2.8 Miranda (Cosina), tokina 28-70.

Just did a quick comparison in the back garden with the 35/2. Surprisingly close for detail actually (although the contax lens is 5mm longer, which helps).

One really interesting thing is that the DP2M turns shadow areas almost monochrome. You don't notice so much without comparing to another camera but the shadows are close to B&W. Interesting.

The Dp2M's strength is in the rendering of rough surfaces (like stone). That's where it will find a niche for me. I think it will hard for other cameras to produce the "crunchy" surface texture of the DP2M.

Operationally, the XE1, whilst having its critics, is a lot easier to use handheld. For example, in the test shot I just did, I could not see the target area for the AF point on the LCD, it was completely black even when magnified. The XE1 EVF revealed the target area very clearly which allowed me to frame the shot more easily.

I completely agree with you. The DP merrils are texture hunters. The Quattro will be in this league too but with a slight lose, as you will notice sooner or later.

If by any chance you can put your hands on a XT-1, do it. Seriously I was in total war against EVF but this one is just soo good and big that the wind is turning. If EVF keep growing in that way, for sure OVF is dead (mirrors and curtains too, just have a look at A7s full electronic shutter). It is like looking at a large high end UHD TV with no refresh time or lag.

The extreme advantage of the fuji sensor is keeping colors details perfectly at any ISO settings. The only camera capable of that actually are the D4s (not the DF which is a piece of crap) and the upcoming A7s.

For me, SIGMA should team up with someone who know how to make a camera. They should team up with Fuji, seriously. But rumours say that fuji might collaborate with Canon at a certain level. Another rumor says that fuji is actually planing a medium format camera (but this is only rumors).

An example, exifs inside.

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jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

thank you and it is good heads-up. off-topic: XT1 and lenses is indeed beautiful camera. I picked it up months ago by accident when I was thinking to supposedly get A7 and happen to chance a demo event headed by Fuji employees. interesting event and upon leaving, came with me is XT1 combos of 56mm (very very highly recommended) and 18-55mm. may pick up other lenses some like the upcoming X zooms. just imagine why I would pick this APS-C XT1 all of sudden over FF A7, it is that impressive. mind that I touched A7 way before I touched XT1. so no blind bias as to purchase of camera. with Merrills, it is for special occasion use. also, have not touch my RX1 for awhile.

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

you are not doing justice to camera by not using and buying Fuji 56mm/1.2. shame, shame, shame.

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

no Fuji lenses? not even one? now this go beyond shameful. it is ultimate insult. laugh. I not have XE-1 but I think camera is really underestimated.

it is true strong point of Merrill is hard textures and is reason I like it.

jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

team up with Canon? interesting since Fuji has been in support of Nikon lenses before.  not far-fetch considering they have trouble with their mirrorless line. about FUJI MF rumor, very outrageous. they did not even release FF yet.

HBowman
HBowman Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

@ jennyrae

Yes it is off topic (sorry) but not that much since we all compare apples and oranges, I compare apples and apples. My mother got the A7r. Not my stuff after all, even being ff. EVF is not as good as the XT1, menus quite bizarre too, not that much photographer friendly (and evf sensor is on amphetamines on the A7r).

I speak about the XT1 while it is firmware 1.00... can't imagine what will bring the first maj.

But the XT-1 is what should aim SIGMA, really. I wish I can win a full Euro Million to give them some bucks for development.

About the 56 ... yes I know ... but I have my awesome Nikkor 50mmf1.2 so I must give it a try before spending another 1 grand

jennyrae wrote:

team up with Canon? interesting since Fuji has been in support of Nikon lenses before. not far-fetch considering they have trouble with their mirrorless line. about FUJI MF rumor, very outrageous. they did not even release FF yet.

Might be related with lenses. Fuji make Hasselblad MF lenses so they already have some freaking strong bases to venture in such a project, IMHO. (The first mirrorless MF ??? exciting times !)

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jennyrae Senior Member • Posts: 2,690
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

with MF rumor, did not hear something like that during event I attended, but employees did mention they "might" consider FF if popular demand is enough. I also saw demo copies of upcoming zooms, a bit different in construct and filter thread. demo I saw was smaller than what I saw in earlier pictures in web, and I not get chance to take picture for argument sake. they said, they will continue to modify lenses and not final, something to do with focus or function ring I think. also, size will be modified. so not final product.

I also hope Sigma will bring approach. my biggest complaint of Sigma is availability in general consumer market. have to order to known online photography stores just to get cameras. I do not think they stripped of cash but priority is more towards lens development. I hope they do something better with cameras and distribution, Quattro may be start hopefully .

Usee
Usee Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

DMillier wrote:

A lesson we could all take to heart, I think! It's just too tempting to take pot shots...

ps

I'm not making fun of your English or typing here, I was genuinely amused by your accidental pun: "suited university". "Suited" means "wearing a suit", something that is just about the last thing I would associate with university. Good one

At least we both are having fun!

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victorgv Senior Member • Posts: 1,586
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

PrebenR wrote:

Usee wrote:

I already hinted at that point, no need to overlook it every time:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53857097

"They are not matched according DOF, brightness and contrast ... beside sharpening etc..."

dp2Q is an APS-C camera and D800 is FF.

Yes, it wasn't me, who made the comparison, but Sigma.

But it doesn't matter how dp2Q relates to D800, when you compare it to DP2M.

We have no comparison to the DP2M yet, but we have figures from DxOmark for the D800 and a comparison with the DP2Q...

...we have also numbers from imaging-resource for the SD1 and the D800:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SD1/EXIF/SD1hSLI0100.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...which indicate a exposure time, of 1/13 s for the SD1 and 1/20 for the D800 at the same scene, the same aperture and at the same ISO setting...

...we also have a comparison between the SD1M and the DP3M, which also shows differences according the true meaning of the ISO numbers...

What distance from camera to object? Is it the same for both cameras or different if it is different here is your answer for difference in exposure.

You mean, that the distance to the object is more important, than the object itself - for the exposure time?

i mean that the farther camera from object the longer exposure needed everything else been equal.

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MOD Kendall Helmstetter Gelner Forum Pro • Posts: 20,128
DP Merrills have interval timer

Scottelly wrote:

<...>Then there's the new screen and improved functionality. (I don't think the Merrills have an interval timer shooting mode, do they?)

Just thought everyone should know they do all have interval timers.

This camera will make the DP series more competitive. I think it will also compete better against the Nikon D800.

I agree with you about more people buying this camera.  However I never have seen the DP cameras as competing against any particular DSLR, instead I think of them more as complementary - as in, have trouble finding a really high quality wide angle on the D800?  Well try a DP1Q on for size...

Some may buy a DP instead of a DSLR, but I think most would be prone to go with a few cameras.  And that is great.

I think people will be more likely to buy this new camera, rather than the bigger, heavier, more expensive Nikon . . . if they can deal with the fact that they'll only have the one focal length and can't shoot video. I think some people will choose the Quattros over the Sony A7 and A7r cameras too.

That I can totally see given the quality for the price.  If I want to take really high ISO photos, well I have an iPhone that is acceptable... for landscape give me a DP.

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Usee
Usee Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

PrebenR wrote:

Usee wrote:

I already hinted at that point, no need to overlook it every time:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53857097

"They are not matched according DOF, brightness and contrast ... beside sharpening etc..."

dp2Q is an APS-C camera and D800 is FF.

Yes, it wasn't me, who made the comparison, but Sigma.

But it doesn't matter how dp2Q relates to D800, when you compare it to DP2M.

We have no comparison to the DP2M yet, but we have figures from DxOmark for the D800 and a comparison with the DP2Q...

...we have also numbers from imaging-resource for the SD1 and the D800:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SD1/EXIF/SD1hSLI0100.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...which indicate a exposure time, of 1/13 s for the SD1 and 1/20 for the D800 at the same scene, the same aperture and at the same ISO setting...

...we also have a comparison between the SD1M and the DP3M, which also shows differences according the true meaning of the ISO numbers...

What distance from camera to object? Is it the same for both cameras or different if it is different here is your answer for difference in exposure.

You mean, that the distance to the object is more important, than the object itself - for the exposure time?

i mean that the farther camera from object the longer exposure needed everything else been equal.

Make a practical test:

Use a zoom lens (at F 8, or smth, to avoid vignetting issues) to keep (the framing of) the scene the same (sun, in the back and lenshood attached), whilst changing the distance...

...other who have doubts, can do the same, to avoid a off topic discussion.

-

People who have no zoom lens at hand, to keep (the framing of) the scene the same, whilst changing the distance to the object, can take a look at the EXIF of the imaging-resource samples...

D7100 APS-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d7100/EXIF/D7100hSLI00100NR0.HTM

D800 FF-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...DxOmark for the ISO sensitivity:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7100-versus-Samsung-NX-1000-versus-Nikon-D800___865_804_792

-

Now, the question:

Why show the D7100 and the D800 the very same behaviour according exposure,

despite they used the same 70 mm lens?

Obviously they had to change the distance, to keep the framing the same...

...but the exposure time kept the same.

-

Please make the mentioned practical test and accept the outcome,

before we make a avoidable off topic discussion.

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victorgv Senior Member • Posts: 1,586
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

PrebenR wrote:

Usee wrote:

I already hinted at that point, no need to overlook it every time:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53857097

"They are not matched according DOF, brightness and contrast ... beside sharpening etc..."

dp2Q is an APS-C camera and D800 is FF.

Yes, it wasn't me, who made the comparison, but Sigma.

But it doesn't matter how dp2Q relates to D800, when you compare it to DP2M.

We have no comparison to the DP2M yet, but we have figures from DxOmark for the D800 and a comparison with the DP2Q...

...we have also numbers from imaging-resource for the SD1 and the D800:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SD1/EXIF/SD1hSLI0100.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...which indicate a exposure time, of 1/13 s for the SD1 and 1/20 for the D800 at the same scene, the same aperture and at the same ISO setting...

...we also have a comparison between the SD1M and the DP3M, which also shows differences according the true meaning of the ISO numbers...

What distance from camera to object? Is it the same for both cameras or different if it is different here is your answer for difference in exposure.

You mean, that the distance to the object is more important, than the object itself - for the exposure time?

i mean that the farther camera from object the longer exposure needed everything else been equal.

Make a practical test:

Use a zoom lens (at F 8, or smth, to avoid vignetting issues) to keep (the framing of) the scene the same (sun, in the back and lenshood attached), whilst changing the distance...

...other who have doubts, can do the same, to avoid a off topic discussion.

-

People who have no zoom lens at hand, to keep (the framing of) the scene the same, whilst changing the distance to the object, can take a look at the EXIF of the imaging-resource samples...

D7100 APS-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d7100/EXIF/D7100hSLI00100NR0.HTM

D800 FF-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...DxOmark for the ISO sensitivity:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7100-versus-Samsung-NX-1000-versus-Nikon-D800___865_804_792

-

Now, the question:

Why show the D7100 and the D800 the very same behaviour according exposure,

despite they used the same 70 mm lens?

First of all they do not have same lens. exif does not say it is 70mm native or 70mm equivalent to FF.

Obviously they had to change the distance, to keep the framing the same...

...but the exposure time kept the same.

-

Please make the mentioned practical test and accept the outcome,

before we make a avoidable off topic discussion.

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Usee
Usee Senior Member • Posts: 2,223
Re: noise is still not convincing, but the lens is

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

victorgv wrote:

Usee wrote:

PrebenR wrote:

Usee wrote:

I already hinted at that point, no need to overlook it every time:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53857097

"They are not matched according DOF, brightness and contrast ... beside sharpening etc..."

dp2Q is an APS-C camera and D800 is FF.

Yes, it wasn't me, who made the comparison, but Sigma.

But it doesn't matter how dp2Q relates to D800, when you compare it to DP2M.

We have no comparison to the DP2M yet, but we have figures from DxOmark for the D800 and a comparison with the DP2Q...

...we have also numbers from imaging-resource for the SD1 and the D800:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/SD1/EXIF/SD1hSLI0100.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...which indicate a exposure time, of 1/13 s for the SD1 and 1/20 for the D800 at the same scene, the same aperture and at the same ISO setting...

...we also have a comparison between the SD1M and the DP3M, which also shows differences according the true meaning of the ISO numbers...

What distance from camera to object? Is it the same for both cameras or different if it is different here is your answer for difference in exposure.

You mean, that the distance to the object is more important, than the object itself - for the exposure time?

i mean that the farther camera from object the longer exposure needed everything else been equal.

Make a practical test:

Use a zoom lens (at F 8, or smth, to avoid vignetting issues) to keep (the framing of) the scene the same (sun, in the back and lenshood attached), whilst changing the distance...

...other who have doubts, can do the same, to avoid a off topic discussion.

-

People who have no zoom lens at hand, to keep (the framing of) the scene the same, whilst changing the distance to the object, can take a look at the EXIF of the imaging-resource samples...

D7100 APS-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d7100/EXIF/D7100hSLI00100NR0.HTM

D800 FF-sensor:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-d800/EXIF/D800hSLI00100NR0.HTM

...DxOmark for the ISO sensitivity:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7100-versus-Samsung-NX-1000-versus-Nikon-D800___865_804_792

-

Now, the question:

Why show the D7100 and the D800 the very same behaviour according exposure,

despite they used the same 70 mm lens?

First of all they do not have same lens. exif does not say it is 70mm native or 70mm equivalent to FF.

First of all, you are wrong again:

LensID Sigma Macro 70mm F2.8 EX DG

...just read the whole EXIF report (in the last paragraph "COMPOSITE") - for both cameras!

-

Sorry, but a discussion with you seems fruitless, because you even fail on the basics.

Obviously they had to change the distance, to keep the framing the same...

...but the exposure time kept the same.

-

Please make the mentioned practical test and accept the outcome,

before we make a avoidable off topic discussion.

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
-
Stop to run, start to think.
-
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
-
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
-
Avoid to have only one point of view!
-
U see?

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
-
Stop to run, start to think.
-
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
-
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
-
Avoid to have only one point of view!
-
U see?

 Usee's gear list:Usee's gear list
Samsung NX1 Samsung NX 12-24mm F4-5.6 ED Samsung NX 45mm F1.8 2D/3D Samsung 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 power zoom Samsung 50-150mm F2.8 S
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