Samsung SEF580A and the Metz 58 AF-1 for Canon on the NX300

First I would like to talk a little bit about my experience with the Samsung flash. Absolutely awful. The Samsung UK website says the flash is compatible with all NX cameras and it sounds like the only caveat is no HSS (when reading their SEF580A page here: http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/smart-camera-camcorder/smart-nx/smart-nx-accessories/ED-SEF580A ). They state just below the "View the Specs" heading, "Compatible Models All NX Cameras. High Speed Sync function is available with NX30 only. " B&H extends compatibility claims even to EX models: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1027039&gclid=CjgKEAjwwPabBRCXo46OtM_RhGMSJACgCeqAmD0PhS4LgisZfviq83bEtUQn4PGHZ0i6vPVKA81hwvD_BwE&Q=&is=REG&A=details claiming, "The Samsung ED-SEF580A Flash is a Samsung A-TTL compatible flash unit for Samsung NX and EX cameras with a powerful guide number of 190' at ISO 100 and 105mm."

Mmmk... well it didn't work as I would have expected on my NX300.  Only two modes were available when on the camera, A-TTL and M.  I would also have expected at least Master and Multiflash modes (HSS not expected on the NX300 and slave/remote modes, it makes sense they wouldn't be used on camera).  So I did some digging and I remember reading something about only A-TTL and M being available on some models... but I can't find that source again now, and it didn't specify which models, leaving things open ended.  So I went looking for information on whether or not this was expected behaviour on the NX300.  Samsung US does not have the flash in their product database, nor is it on their website yet.  They claim the flash is not compatible with the NX300, basing that claim on the list of compatible flashes in the NX300 manual, which predates the SEF580A and has not been updated, so it doesn't really mean anything.  When I cited the Samsung UK page they said to talk to Samsung UK.  Turns out my phone service plan doesn't allow me to make calls to the UK, I admit I haven't contacted them by e-mail yet.  Finally I was able to speak to a Samsung US agent that told me they source their flashes through SamsungParts, aka J&J International and that I should contact them.  Calling them I was on hold for a stupid amount of time and have still been unable to get through.  Attempting to contact Metz (the supposed actual manufacturer of this flash) was also a dead end, they direct you to their US distributor that is as clueless as Samsung US about the SEF580A.

So... no info on if this is right or not, though another members NX210 (I think) experience bodes ill as well.  Alright, two modes, they should at least work right?  No, they don't.  In A-TTL mode the flash auto zoom does not update when you zoom (yes, with NX lenses).  It does update if you tilt the flash head and replace it or if you toggle the AF/MF switch.  So much for auto.  Alright, M mode works right, it's super simple after all.  Nope, no matter what is set on the flash, it fires at full power.  Also in the A-TTL it uses the flash exposure compensation set on camera (which is +/-2 stops only, whereas there is +/- 3 assignable on the flash itself).  It is almost literally operating as a power pumped SEF8... so not very useful for anything besides auto shooting if you're willing to constantly deal with moving the flash head or a switch back and forth to updated the zoom (or manually set the zoom, but that takes even a little bit longer).  For a $550 dollar flash that's just not even close to cutting it, so I'm returning it T.T.

On the plus side B&H gave a full refund and prepaid return shipping.

Alright, now for the Metz 58 AF-1 story.  I got this flash for my mom for Christmas, ETTL HSS works great on the Canons we have and all that, updated the firmware because Metz is awesome like that and everything is ticking great on the Canons.  My only complaint is that the secondary reflector fires when in master mode when the master flash is set not to fire, even when it is set to off and is off for other modes of shooting.  This isn't about Canon though, so I put this on my NX300.  Manual works, that's already a point over the SEF580A.  Multiflash works.  Master mode works (just manual, but hey, it's more than the SEF580A is doing).  Pretty much the only thing that doesn't work is the ETTL and HSS of course, but it's a high powered flash with numerous use cases that can be had for much less than the SEF580A.  Well, what about the A-TTL, what can the 58 AF-1 do there?  Well, no TTL, but it has an auto thyristor mode, so you can still do auto flash if you put in the ISO and f-number, and the zoom, often you're predominantly be changing the zoom, so it's really not all that much more work that the much pricier SEF580A and you have somewhat more control being able to use all +/- 3 stops of flash exposure compensation.  This exposure is actually quite good, you need to look out for the special contrast cases and use the exposure compensation, also it can't quench quickly enough to be used a < ~10% of the current flash range.  Apparently (from my current reading online) many in it's day claimed the thyristor exposure did a better job than TTL.  So overall, this is a flash that does almost everything one could ask of it on the NX300, certainly much more than one would expect of a flash not specified for the camera and packs similar power and features (e.g. modelling light, zoom extension, flash bracketing) to the SEF580A (which something like the Metz 44 does not).  I might be picking up one of these for myself soon.

For those wondering, the only differences I could find between the 58 AF-1 and 58 AF-2 were that the AF-1 had a plastic shoe that was changed for metal in the AF-2.  They do appear to have different firmwares on the Metz site though, so who knows what hidden details there may be.

It's possible my copy of the SEF580A was faulty, after all, I have still been unable to verify any known behaviour on the NX300.  It's also possible there is still a firmware update in the works, for the camera, the flash, or both, but unless there is some official announcement I can't afford to hold onto the flash in the meantime.

I am not 100% but it may be a firmware fixable issue or I'd hate to say maybe HSS only works with the NX30? Have you tried contacting samsung support?

I am actually waiting for a good price on the Flash so can't really test it until I actually purchase it though I do have the NX30.

erandhawa wrote:

I am not 100% but it may be a firmware fixable issue or I'd hate to say maybe HSS only works with the NX30? Have you tried contacting samsung support?

I am actually waiting for a good price on the Flash so can't really test it until I actually purchase it though I do have the NX30.

The official Samsung website says "HSS Function is compatible with NX30 and successors".

giliath wrote:

erandhawa wrote:

I am not 100% but it may be a firmware fixable issue or I'd hate to say maybe HSS only works with the NX30? Have you tried contacting samsung support?

I am actually waiting for a good price on the Flash so can't really test it until I actually purchase it though I do have the NX30.

The official Samsung website says "HSS Function is compatible with NX30 and successors".

Going to reply to both of you on this one.  I was not expecting HSS to work with the NX300.  What I was expecting was everything else.  What I got was a crippled flash that couldn't even do manual on the NX300.  Please read the post to reply to it.  These things are firmware fixable (except possibly the HSS).  I did contact Samsung support (again, read the post) and they were totally useless.  Since I didn't gain any information on whether or not Samsung had any plans to correct this I had to send the flash back (not chancing them not ever fixing it).

Raw Jaw wrote:

ttbek wrote:

First I would like to talk a little bit about my experience with the Samsung flash. Absolutely awful. The Samsung UK website says the flash is compatible with all NX cameras and it sounds like the only caveat is no HSS (when reading their SEF580A page here: http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/smart-camera-camcorder/smart-nx/smart-nx-accessories/ED-SEF580A ). They state just below the "View the Specs" heading, "Compatible Models All NX Cameras. High Speed Sync function is available with NX30 only. " B&H extends compatibility claims even to EX models: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1027039&gclid=CjgKEAjwwPabBRCXo46OtM_RhGMSJACgCeqAmD0PhS4LgisZfviq83bEtUQn4PGHZ0i6vPVKA81hwvD_BwE&Q=&is=REG&A=details claiming, "TheSamsung ED-SEF580A Flash is a Samsung A-TTL compatible flash unit for Samsung NX and EX cameras with a powerful guide number of 190' at ISO 100 and 105mm."

Mmmk... well it didn't work as I would have expected on my NX300. Only two modes were available when on the camera, A-TTL and M. I would also have expected at least Master and Multiflash modes (HSS not expected on the NX300 and slave/remote modes, it makes sense they wouldn't be used on camera). So I did some digging and I remember reading something about only A-TTL and M being available on some models... but I can't find that source again now, and it didn't specify which models, leaving things open ended. So I went looking for information on whether or not this was expected behaviour on the NX300. Samsung US does not have the flash in their product database, nor is it on their website yet. They claim the flash is not compatible with the NX300, basing that claim on the list of compatible flashes in the NX300 manual, which predates the SEF580A and has not been updated, so it doesn't really mean anything. When I cited the Samsung UK page they said to talk to Samsung UK. Turns out my phone service plan doesn't allow me to make calls to the UK, I admit I haven't contacted them by e-mail yet. Finally I was able to speak to a Samsung US agent that told me they source their flashes through SamsungParts, aka J&J International and that I should contact them. Calling them I was on hold for a stupid amount of time and have still been unable to get through. Attempting to contact Metz (the supposed actual manufacturer of this flash) was also a dead end, they direct you to their US distributor that is as clueless as Samsung US about the SEF580A.

So... no info on if this is right or not, though another members NX210 (I think) experience bodes ill as well. Alright, two modes, they should at least work right? No, they don't. In A-TTL mode the flash auto zoom does not update when you zoom (yes, with NX lenses). It does update if you tilt the flash head and replace it or if you toggle the AF/MF switch. So much for auto. Alright, M mode works right, it's super simple after all. Nope, no matter what is set on the flash, it fires at full power. Also in the A-TTL it uses the flash exposure compensation set on camera (which is +/-2 stops only, whereas there is +/- 3 assignable on the flash itself). It is almost literally operating as a power pumped SEF8... so not very useful for anything besides auto shooting if you're willing to constantly deal with moving the flash head or a switch back and forth to updated the zoom (or manually set the zoom, but that takes even a little bit longer). For a $550 dollar flash that's just not even close to cutting it, so I'm returning it T.T.

On the plus side B&H gave a full refund and prepaid return shipping.

Alright, now for the Metz 58 AF-1 story. I got this flash for my mom for Christmas, ETTL HSS works great on the Canons we have and all that, updated the firmware because Metz is awesome like that and everything is ticking great on the Canons. My only complaint is that the secondary reflector fires when in master mode when the master flash is set not to fire, even when it is set to off and is off for other modes of shooting. This isn't about Canon though, so I put this on my NX300. Manual works, that's already a point over the SEF580A. Multiflash works. Master mode works (just manual, but hey, it's more than the SEF580A is doing). Pretty much the only thing that doesn't work is the ETTL and HSS of course, but it's a high powered flash with numerous use cases that can be had for much less than the SEF580A. Well, what about the A-TTL, what can the 58 AF-1 do there? Well, no TTL, but it has an auto thyristor mode, so you can still do auto flash if you put in the ISO and f-number, and the zoom, often you're predominantly be changing the zoom, so it's really not all that much more work that the much pricier SEF580A and you have somewhat more control being able to use all +/- 3 stops of flash exposure compensation. This exposure is actually quite good, you need to look out for the special contrast cases and use the exposure compensation, also it can't quench quickly enough to be used a < ~10% of the current flash range. Apparently (from my current reading online) many in it's day claimed the thyristor exposure did a better job than TTL. So overall, this is a flash that does almost everything one could ask of it on the NX300, certainly much more than one would expect of a flash not specified for the camera and packs similar power and features (e.g. modelling light, zoom extension, flash bracketing) to the SEF580A (which something like the Metz 44 does not). I might be picking up one of these for myself soon.

For those wondering, the only differences I could find between the 58 AF-1 and 58 AF-2 were that the AF-1 had a plastic shoe that was changed for metal in the AF-2. They do appear to have different firmwares on the Metz site though, so who knows what hidden details there may be.

It's possible my copy of the SEF580A was faulty, after all, I have still been unable to verify any known behaviour on the NX300. It's also possible there is still a firmware update in the works, for the camera, the flash, or both, but unless there is some official announcement I can't afford to hold onto the flash in the meantime.

Seems you expended an inordinate amount of time, energy and money on this issue.

Not money at least thanks to B&H taking it back for full refund (including return postage, shipped it back today).  I'm not the type to do "buy and try," but my experience with the flash is that it did not function as advertised.

I am staying with my 220a and Nikon SB800's (which are way too big for the NX300 and the NX30 imo, I own both.

For the 580a pricepoint I want a flash that is in balance with the NX30, meaning without the 4 AA batteries above the camera.

A Metz refab is still a DSLR flash on a Mirrorless camera. Makes no sense - to me that is.

Meh, size/weight had 0 to do with why I picked the NX300 (picked it out based on performance/cost), so for me the situation is a bit different.  I actually am quite pleased with how the 58 AF-1 works though, I would recommend it for other NX shooters that need the high power if the SEF580A isn't working on their camera (I don't know if anyone has reported trying the SEF580A on say the NX20, NX10, etc... either).  Also for stroboscopic flash (which needs the high power), the SEF580A also has this (multiflash) but it's not working on the NX300.  The 58 AF-1 just checks all the major boxes for me.

R0M wrote:

Funny you mentioned it i was the first who actually complained about this, but was considering buying the NX30 to take advantage of the flash, i am still on my old NX210, i am considering replacing it with a Metz 44-AF1 it does everything this flash does on my NX210, i only like the swivel and bounce.

This is part of why I want a stronger flash, more situations where you can take advantage of that bounce. NX30+SEF580A would be my 1st choice if I could afford to also pick up and NX30. Even the SEF580A was a gift I had to return, can't afford it myself. The 58 AF-1 can do things the SEF580A can't even when paired with the NX30 (e.g. remotely fire Canon flashes, not useful for everyone, but if you already have one it is, and the secondary reflector). At least some people, though I don't have numbers on how many, still seem to prefer the exposure from the thyristor flash to the TTL results. Finally, the 58 AF-1 seems to be much more flexible for use with other cameras (after all, it's made for Canon cameras but almost everything works on the NX300).

But am annoyed when shooting in low light, bounce at 60 degrees and the legs are black so i have to photoshop after.

So you're bouncing the light off the ceiling in this case, so the light falloff (since the legs are further) is getting you?

Maybe use a diffuser would fix the problem.

It will probaly help, I don't think it would entirely fix it (I could be wrong though, I don't have a lot of experience with flash yet). Something like the 58 AF-1 may also help, it has a secondary reflector so that it can fire some light directly while doing bounce at the same time (can set to off, 1,1/2, or 1/4 power). Their stated use case was to act as fill flash for the main flash, lighten shadows (since the light is coming off the ceiling from the bounce people can often have heavy shadows under their eyes) and get catch lights in the eyes. I don't see why it wouldn't also lighten their legs some.

I was happy with my SEF42A but i want a flash with AF-Light which is why i considered it, i got screwed since it does not support it. Does AF Light works on your NX300?

Well, the little built in green one still works with the 58 AF-1 attached. The one on the flash does not, this is typical of many cameras with a built in AF beam. For instance, the 58 AF-1 AF beam does not work on my SX10 IS (has a built in beam) but does on my mom's 5D. Same for the AF beams in the YN-622C remote triggers. Some cameras that have their own beams will trigger attached ones, but those cameras are quite few.

If not, can anyone recommend a flash with AF-Light, that would solve all my AF problems i am faced in low light

No luck here with the NX300. I haven't had too many issues with focus in low light with the kit lens (18-55 OIS III in my case) + built in AF beam on the NX300 though. The 50-200mm is awful for low light focus though. If it fits your use case I think the best for focussing in low light would be to use a faster lens (since the focus occurs wide open and it stops down just before taking the shot) like the 30, 45 85, or the new f/2-f/2.8 zoom. The 30 and 45 are the cheaper options on that list.

Regards.

58 AF-1, things that do not work on the NX300:

ETTL, AF-Beam, Azoom (and so maybe not zoom extension, though maybe it still applies to a manually set zoom, I would need to check), 2nd curtain sync

58 AF-1 things that do work on the NX300:

Everything else, including things like multiflash (stroboscopic), master mode (to fire Canon and probably Metz but I would need a 2nd Metz to check with flashes remotely, Auto mode (thyristor, is not the TTL), flash bracketing, and more.

SEF580A, things that do not work on the NX300:

almost everything

SEF580A, things that do work on the NX300:

A-TTL... mostly, the Azoom doesn't update properly

That's pretty much the end of the list, even manual doesn't work properly, it's dismal really.

Why to get a 58 AF-1 over a 44 AF-1?

More power!

Secondary reflector.

More light levels (in part because of more power, but some other flashes with similar power like the Neewer TT560 also have more levels than the 44 AF-1 does).

Multiflash (need quite a bit of power to do this effectively, which is probably why the 44 AF-1 doesn't)

HSS not for NX300, but for use with other cameras that support it

Auto (thyristor flash mode) always useful

Servo mode, though you could buy cheap optical triggers to add this to other flashes and there are some much cheaper flashes that do this, e.g. those Neewer TT560s.

Why to get a 44 AF-1 over a 58 AF-1?

A-TTL (or whatever TTL for the camera brand you've chosen), 2nd curtain sync on NX (58 AF-1 Canon version only has rear curtain sync with ETTL on Canon cameras as far as I have seen so far), Azoom.

Here are the manuals, so let me know if I missed or misinterpreted something:

https://www.metz.de/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin/fm-dam/Download/Photo_Electronic/Bedienungsanleitung/mecablitz/mecablitz_48_bis_76/mecablitz_58_AF_1_digital_Canon_D_F_NL_GB_I_E.pdf&t=1401393405&hash=608a0dca024069a803779da71d55c9687e95fe91

https://www.metz.de/index.php?eID=tx_nawsecuredl&u=0&file=fileadmin/fm-dam/Download/Photo_Electronic/Bedienungsanleitung/mecablitz/mecablitz_40_bis_45/mecablitz_44_AF-1_digital_D_F_NL_GB_I_E.pdf&t=1401393405&hash=657f79a1aed4bc4af0bbed3e2f18c48dcf65302c

All the Metz manuals can be found here: https://www.metz.de//en/service-support/instruction-manuals/flash-units/mecablitz.html

Could get a 58 AF-1 for Canon and a 44 AF-1 for Samsung both for less than the cost of the SEF580A, though as I read the manual it looks like you would need to get the 44 AF-1 for Canon if you wanted to remotely trigger it with the 58 AF-1.

Samsung has an application available on Android called Samsung Smart Camera NX.  It is billed as a catalog of NX gear and will do things like let you see pictures taken with a chosen camera+lens combination and other things like that.  Mainly just info you can get on the Samsung site or that of anyone selling the given products.  It does also show compatibility for NX accessories.  For the SEF580A it lists the following cameras as compatible:

Galaxy NX, NX30, NX300M, NX300, NX2000, NX1100, NX1000, NX20, and NX210.

Considering that the NX300 has not had a firmware update since my experience with the SEF580A.... maybe the flash itself has had an update.  The flash B&H sent me may have been defective.... maybe my camera has some problem that doesn't manifest itself with the SEF8 or 3rd party flashes but does with the SEF580A.... or maybe Samsung has a really low standard for what qualifies as "compatible."

Just to make note of it, Samsung's US site still has not added the SEF580A to their database.  There is news about it's release and whatnot, but good luck getting support for it, I don't even think you'll be able to register it for warranty in the states because they don't have the model listed.  Samsung US should be ashamed of themselves (B&H carries it... it's not like it was a product that was never meant to see U.S. shores or something).

I am not surprised really.  I wish I still had the NX300 to test with.  To summarize: your complaint was that only A-TTL and M modes are available and none of the other more advanced features like multi-flash, HSS, and Master control?

Also, in US in most states you don't ever have to register a product to be eligible for warranty coverage (this is explicitly prohibited by many states).  Some companies do offer extended warranties if you register (for example, Nikon), but mostly warranty registration is used to build marketing lists.

Looking around I don't see any firmware updates.

It is almost like Samsung US (and others) need support people specifically for NX cameras, and also get their website into shape.  I don't think any of it is intentional, they market directed towards consumers (most of which won't buy the SEF580A).  At least they are much better with firmware updates for the cameras now, US site actually gets them in a timely fashion

Eric

viking79 wrote:

I am not surprised really. I wish I still had the NX300 to test with. To summarize: your complaint was that only A-TTL and M modes are available and none of the other more advanced features like multi-flash, HSS, and Master control?

And that the A-TTL and M modes don't even work fully. In A-TTL the auto flash zoom doesn't work and in manual mode it just always fires at full power.

Also, in US in most states you don't ever have to register a product to be eligible for warranty coverage (this is explicitly prohibited by many states). Some companies do offer extended warranties if you register (for example, Nikon), but mostly warranty registration is used to build marketing lists.

Yeah, I know it doesn't need to be registered. I also think they haven't figured out how to register my 30mm yet. The site doesn't accept it when I try because the sale date is before the manufacture date (because the lens had to be back-ordered by B&H). I spoke to support and they said they would get it registered manually somehow, I should check if they ever got that sorted out, I doubt it though. Mainly I just like to have it registered because it makes things a bit smoother when you need support.

Looking around I don't see any firmware updates.

Same here.

Edit: I stand corrected, Bryguy posted that there is now a 1.41 firmware, doesn't look like it's anything useful at all from the release notes but who knows what they might be sliding in.  Haven't got the SEF580A now though (returned back then).  Actually it might have been a reaction to that small spat caused by the coverage of that German fellow's work.

It is almost like Samsung US (and others) need support people specifically for NX cameras, and also get their website into shape. I don't think any of it is intentional, they market directed towards consumers (most of which won't buy the SEF580A). At least they are much better with firmware updates for the cameras now, US site actually gets them in a timely fashion

I'm putting it down mainly to incompetence all around. I wonder if the main firmware team that does all the hard parts works on smartphone code most of the time and hardly ever gets time to work on NX. I wonder this because there are a lot of things they do very well... but a lot of easy changes that people would appreciate that aren't touched, makes me want to facepalm.

Considering the speculated origins of the flash I at first expected Metz might author the firmware for the flash as well, but I'm leaning towards it being Samsung authored or sub contracted now.

Eric

... with the SEF580A ? thanks.

It might speak for the NX3000-Compatibility that the Nx3000 is built months after the Nx30 and the SEF580A were announced, so Samsung should meanwhile know how the HSS works.

On the other hand, perhaps for some strange reasons HSS might be not in the low end cameras like the Nx3000 ? :

Yes, I heard about that, I discussed it with someone in another thread.  Thanks for adding that here though as well, it will be easier for people if more information is readily available in one place instead of having to search out more.  I think it's the same issue, but I sent back that SEF580A, so I can't verify that for anyone.

On a side note, I believe that the SEF580A is properly in the database of Samsung US by now, I didn't double check right this moment though.

R0M wrote:

My SEF580a started acting up since saturday, if i tilt the camera up the flash disconnects in low light, but if you move your hand up it is fine... does not happen with onboard flash or any other flash i have tested.
Does it in manual mode or auto mode...

Hey there, about posting SEF580A stuff here, I meant for more general information things rather than problems with a faulty unit (I don't think that kind of post will get much attention and/or help if it's buried in here).  It sounds like your contacts may be disconnecting, I'm guessing you've already tried tightening down the flash more?  If cleaning the contacts and tightening it down doesn't help, then it's probably time to go right to Samsung's support.  You could also try making a new thread that might get some more ideas from other forum members, but personally I would be complaining to Samsung at that point.